Author Topic: 11 weeks old - OT baby  (Read 5356 times)

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Offline Mommy88

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11 weeks old - OT baby
« on: August 20, 2016, 10:41:17 am »
Hi to everyone, I'm a first time mum looking for some advice! I'm Italian, so please forgive any English error I may make!

My DS is now almost 11 weeks old, I read Tracy's books during pregnancy and I immediately liked her philosophy, but I couldn't try to use an EASY schedule until week 8-9, because of several reasons. Anyway, I separated the Eating moment (I breastfeed) form the Sleeping one from the first day, and now my LO can sometimes fall asleep in his crib almost independently.

I have big problems with naps (always 30 minutes, no 1 minute more), and I really think that it is due to a wrong timing of the E and A phases. I BF and in the first days it was told me to leave him attached for all the time he wanted: this has lead to very long Eating times (from 40 minutes to 1 hour and even more!). Now I know this is wrong, but the consequences are still here with us! DS often falls asleep during BF and then the A phase is very long (1 hour of activity, eating excluded). Result: an OT baby who sleeps only for 30 minutes! The night usually goes better, but I have to admit that he goes to bed too late (between 9 and 10 pm).
So, our schedule is quite a mess... The only goal is the sequence E-A-S, but for the rest I really don't know where to start from!!

About naps: he settles quite easily, I always put him in the crib in phase 2, with eyes open, and usually he falls asleep (other times he cries and then I have to pick him up after some trials of shush patting and let him fall asleep in my arms, when he's very nervous). After 30 minutes, he wakes: I try to resettle him by shushing, patting, using the paci, covering his eyes, but nothing works. If I pick him up he relaxes and then falls asleep again.
Yesterday morning he slept for 30 minutes and after the resettling he went on for 2 hours (now it's doing the same thing), so the EASY timing of 3 hours was completely ruined...! I see he's very tired, and I don't know if I have to wake him... But he has to eat too!!
The last 2 nights he's also been very agitated (not usual for him) and I had to feed him many times: can it be a growth spurt? Can this be the reason why he's sleeping so soundly now in the morning (never slept like this before)?

I'm really exhausted (LO is exhausted too, poor baby of mine) and I know it's my fault... In the first days everyone told me that a baby sleeps wherever he is and that I had to set him free of doing what he wanted... This is the result!! :(

Where can I start from? Thanks everyone!!

Offline Mommy88

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Re: 11 weeks old - OT baby
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2016, 13:00:10 pm »
Here's yesterday:

WU: 8.00
E: 8.00. - 8.40
A: 8.40 - 10.00
S: 10.00 - 10.30 many trials of resettling, he slept from 11.10 to 12.50
E: 12.50 - 01.40
A: 01.40 - 03.00
S: 03.00 - 03.30 + resettling trials failed
E: 04.00 - 04.55
A: 04.55 - 06.00
S: 06.00 - 06.25 + resettling trials failed
E: 06.50 - 07.25
A: -
S: 07.25 he fell asleep at the end of BF (never done before, very early for him) till 08.00
A: 08.00 - 08.30 (diaper change, swaddling)
S: 08.30 - 09.30
E: DF 09.40 - 09.55

NW: 01.00, 03.00, 05.50 (I fed him every time), very agitated (continuous movements of the limbs)
WU at 07.00, stays alone in the crib moving his arms and legs, sleeping a bit, then moving again, for about 50 minutes

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Re: 11 weeks old - OT baby
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2016, 18:32:55 pm »
Hello and welcome again :)

Sorry to hear how tired you are feeling - try to use every opportunity to take a break or nap any time possible!

You've done brilliantly to start the EAS cycle early on and it sounds like your LO is well on his way to self settling too - that's really great! :)

In terms of the routine and short naps, it looks like your A times are too long for his age. We have a list of guidance A times here:
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!
You will see that 3 months (which your LO is approaching, roughly ) there is a guidance A time of 1hr 20 to 1hr 30.  Looking at your EASY sample the A times are much longer than this, more like 2hrs.  The guidance times are only guidance, some parents observe that their LO does much better on longer or shorter than the guidance and that's fine so long as everything is working but when things are not working so well let's start with those times - I suggest from now you aim to have him asleep after 1hr 20 to 1hr 30 max.  The A time is the *entire time he is awake* regardless of whether he is eating, having  nappy change, singing songs or the wind down routine in readiness for sleep - it is everything from eyes open and awake to eyes shut and asleep.
It think this might be where you were a little confused, I know in the book A time is described as after E time but the E is part of the A, I hope this makes sense to you.

Now, then as he is eating for a long time this means that you have very little time to do much else, feed, nappy change and perhaps a few short minutes of interaction and then begin the wind down.  Some babies like the full 20 minute wind down as described in the books, some do not (mine liked about 3 mins) so check the time and begin your WD based on how long you know/think it will take and with the aim of sleep being at 1hr 20-30 after the last wake up time.

I suggest you try to reduce and stop the falling to sleep on the breast, cat napping on the breast makes it much harder to work out the routine as he has not been awake the full time.  It might be easier to stop him fallign to sleep on the reast once he has shorter A times and is getting more rest.

If you do need to resettle mid-nap that's fine, continue as you have been doing - you might also want to try a W2S
See here, scroll to "Naps wake to sleep option 1" and adapt it a little for your own LO. As you LO is waking at 30 mins you would not enter the room at this time but earlier, say 20 or 25 mins and begin shush/pat to help him remain calm and sleepy and help him through the sleep cycle transition.  You might like to try for a new days to see if you feel it is helpful, it can help LOs transition rather than fully waking and can be useful with OT wake ups.  You would not aim to do this for ever, a few days only.  If you are too tired or busy to do this every nap I suggest you pick one nap per day, it is useful to choose the same nap each day (nap 1 is a good place to start) rather than changing every day.

Increased NF (night feeds) can certainly be a growth spurt. Your supply is increased during the night.  The feeds look at least 2hrs apart so I wouldn't worry about this as it may pass in a week or so.  Increased NWs can also be due to OT but I would expect him not to feed if he is not used to feeding to sleep (habit/prop) and if he is not hungry.

If he naps longer and goes past his E time I would let this happen without too much concern unless it becomes a problem.  Healthy babies generally know what they need and might prioritise a nap over food when they are very tired, yes he'll likely be very hungry when he wakes but he will eat straight away.

I hope I answered all your questions.  Please let me know if you need anything explaining.

By the way, your English is great :)
Let us know how you get on.


Offline Mommy88

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Re: 11 weeks old - OT baby
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2016, 13:39:52 pm »
Thanks so much for your prompt answer! I couldn't answer before today because we went to the seaside and I hadn't a good Internet connection, but in these days I tried to make some changes and there are some results!

I shortened the A time to about 1:30 hours (LO is 12 weeks now). The WD has become shorter and easier: from 30-40 minutes to 10-15, with minimal fussing, so I think this is a good sign, isn't it?!
Then he still wakes after 30 minutes, BUT if I try W2S it sometimes works: he has made some 1:30 and even 2 hours naps!
It doesn't work every time, and then, if he cries, I pick him up and after 5 minutes he's ready for the crib again. After these resettlings, he has more difficulties to fall totally asleep: he stays quiet in the crib with his eyes not completely closed and moves his head from side to side every 2-3 minutes like someone who's trying to relax. I stay with him putting one hand on his chest and the other above his eyes: this phase can last even 20 minutes, is it normal? Today I went out of the room before he was 100% asleep and he waked again after 5 minutes. I resettled him and then stayed with him as I said and after 10 minutes I just sit by the crib looking at him. He made some noises and moved his head for about other 20 minutes (eyes slightly opened, just a tiny bit), then fell asleep for another 40 minutes. How can I help him going through this very light sleep phase on his own? Am I doing right or there's something different I can do? In those moments he can be disturbed by every little noise, so I'm using a white sound app to cover them.

Thanks in advance, I love this forum!

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Re: 11 weeks old - OT baby
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2016, 18:26:26 pm »
Hello, I hope you had a lovely time at the seaside :)

I'm so sorry but I realise I did not put in the link to the W2S, it's here, I see you have been using W2S anyway but have a look as there are different methods:
How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)
the one I suggest is the naps option 1 where you begin to shush/pat (or adapted if you do something else, a firm hand and a key phrase perhaps or white noise and rubbing back) and see LO right through the transition.

It sounds like you have had some success which is great! :)
Resettling after properly waking up mid nap is always harder in my experience, if you can catch him before he fully wakes and sooth him through the transition time that may be more successful. However what you are doing sounds great, comforting in arms and putting down again, a hand on his chest if needed and then backing off to let him try alone, this is perfect :)
Now there are 2 or 3 usual reasons for waking mid nap, these are UT (under tired), OT (overtired) or not learned to self settle and transition from one sleep cycle to another alone yet.  I think initially your LO was OT.  I think now he is still learning to transition and you are doing a great job in helping him learn.  it really does sound like he is trying to self settle so this is great and holding back to allow him to learn this is brilliant, the W2S method I suggested might help as it often avoids LO fully waking.  Continue to work on improving his ability to self settle at the beginning of the nap too so that he can fall to sleep without help and this can also help him transition alone.

Using white noise is totally fine,  many people use it throughout naps and night sleep.

The level of stimulation during his A time can also impact on how tired he is. Lots of stimulation and he might be tired a bit sooner, but very low key activity means he might not be fully tired for a long nap.  If you know in your routine there are different levels of stimulation you can adapt your routine a little to take this into account. For example if you attend a baby group and he is highly stimulated then he may need a bit shorter A time. This may help to get more of the naps longer - 30  min naps may mean OT or OS (over stimulated. Over stimulated doesn't always mean you have to stop that doing that activity but maybe do it for a shorter time and put him to nap a little earlier).

If you want to post a recent EASY with times I can have a look for you.


Offline Mommy88

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Re: 11 weeks old - OT baby
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2016, 10:39:41 am »
Thank you again!
Here's yesterday:

WU: 08:10
E: 08:10
A
S: 09:45 (WD started at 09:30), awake 10:25, resettled 10:45, awake 11:00
E: 11:00
A
S: 12:25 (WD started at 12:10), awake 12:48, resettled 13:40 (a lot of difficulties to settle him again), awake 14:50 (the eating was intended to be at 14:00 but I let him rest)
E: 14:50
A
S: 16:40 (WD 16:30) - I know, I started the WD too late but I couldn't do it before...
E: 17:45
A
S: 19:30 (WD 19:20), awake 19:50 - I know, I started the WD too late but I couldn't do it before...
E: 20:30
S: 21:50, at 22:20 cries a bit but self settles without any help

Night wakings at 01:50 and 05:10, I feed him both times.
He waked at about 07:00 crying, but self settled again and slept until 08:20 (when I woke him up).

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Re: 11 weeks old - OT baby
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2016, 17:37:07 pm »
S: 16:40 (WD 16:30) - I know, I started the WD too late but I couldn't do it before...
E: 17:45
Was this nap an hour without need for resettling?
Was BT the sleep at 7.30pm or 9.50pm?

I'm just pondering about the A times etc.

For now I suggest your really try to get him to sleep by the 1hr 30 mark.
I more frequently suggest to people that their A times need increasing but in your case I feel LO will do better with the shorter A time.  Your feedback about him taking less time to settle seems to confirm this too.
If you are able to keep the A times on track for a few days he may well sleep better and be less OT, also I may be able to see a pattern more clearly so that I can support as best I can.


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Re: 11 weeks old - OT baby
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2016, 19:08:27 pm »
Yes, this nap was continuous, and even today he has slept from 03.30 pm to 04.00, then resettled and from 04.10 to 06.00!

The BT was 09.50: the earliest BT of his life has been 09.20. I'd love he would go to bed earlier, but all the times I've put him to sleep at about 07.00 or 07.30 he has woken up after 30 minutes, without success in resettling.

You're right about the A times: in these days I've had a lot to do, but I really want to be more consistent!

Do you think I can try to introduce a DF to avoid the first night waking? For now I'm concentrating on the naps, but maybe working on the night too can be useful... Or not?!
I've also noticed that he's not so hungry anymore at the 3 hour mark during the day... Maybe I should try a 3.5 hour routine... Or it's too early (he's almost 13 weeks old, breastfeeding only)?!

Thanks again, you're very kind! :)

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Re: 11 weeks old - OT baby
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2016, 07:17:10 am »
OK.  I suggest keep going with the 1hr 30 for now and lets see how it goes.

The only way I can see to bring BT earlier would be to wake him earlier in the morning and shift the whole day a bit. You might want to try that out, it's totally up to you.  You might like the later WU in the morning with the routine you have now.

Yes you could try to introduce a DF, not all babies take them but you can try it and see how it works for you.  There would still be another NF in addition.

With the day feeds it's ok to move to more like 3hr 10 say, you don't have to jump right to 3hr 30 or 4hr. Maybe try a slightly longer time between E and see if you feel LO is feeding better.


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Re: 11 weeks old - OT baby
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2016, 19:24:50 pm »
Hi!
Yesterday has been a strange day, with a very bad night, while today's gone so much better!
On August 30 LO was vaccinated for the first time, maybe this affected his mood yesterday... By the way, here's the EASY scheme:

September 1st
WU and E: 08.22
A
S: 10.06 (WD from 09.42), awake 10.48 (W2S failed), resettled 10.59, awake 11.30, very fussy all the time
E: 11.30
A
S: 01.00 (WD from 12.45), awake 01.22, resettling failed, very fussy all the time
E: 02.15
A
S: 03.30 (WD from 03.15), awake 04.00, resettled 04.10, slept until 06.00
E: 06.05
A
S: WD at 07.30, didn't sleep at all, wide awake during all the time, never drowsy
E: 08.50
S: 11.20 (WD from 10.00, with LO fully awake who couldn't get drowsy in any way, very fussy)
1st NW: 02.30 (as usual), BF and bed
2nd NW: 04.30, crying, I pick him up trying to soothe him until 05.20, when I BF him, then bed at 05.50

September 2nd
WU: 07.20, crying
E: 08.40
A
S: 10.25 (WD from 10.10), W2S at 10.50, sleeps until 12.10
E: 12.18
A
S: 02.05 (WD from 01.50), W2S 02.30, sleeps until 03.30
E: 03.38
A
S: 05.18 (WD from 04.55), awake at 05.43, very happy, I try to resettle but he wants to stay awake
E: 06.44
A
S: doesn't sleep because of some friends visiting us
E: 08.45 (I anticipated the E to have an earlier BT)

That's it until now: 2 good naps without interruption, I'm so happy! I hope the W2S keeps on working like today!

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Re: 11 weeks old - OT baby
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2016, 20:57:58 pm »
Lots of LOs go off their routine when they have their jabs, mine certainly did and most of the people I know with babies said the same.  I also noticed some disturbance/side effects a couple of weeks later too.

Well, I'm not sure what to say about your 2nd Sept EASY times. The A times are sky high but you got better sleeps.  That first A time of 3hrs is more like a 6 month old.  It's not unheard of though, my own DS needed a very long first A time and some LOs move to 2 naps earlier than expected because of long A times with long naps.


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Re: 11 weeks old - OT baby
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2016, 10:20:50 am »
The first A time of the day is very long because now he uses to wake up at about 07.40, with some little laments at the beginning and then making little sounds, like he's "talking". He can go on this way even for 1 hour, with some brief sleeping moments in between. I don't know what to do, because it's too early to breastfeed him again (last feed at 05.15), and he's so peaceful that I don't want to interrupt him. Then I feed him (today at 08.45), then there's A time again and only at 10.10 (today) he falls asleep again. Today he woke at 10.50, after 40 minutes, with a big smile, and W2S didn't work. I tried to resettle him but he suddenly became fussy, so after 10 minutes I took him out of the room and he became calm again. We stayed on the sofa without talking or moving, he played with his hands (his newest discovery) and then, at 11.45, I breastfed him (and he wasn't drowsy at the breast, but fully awake, smiling and playful).
I'm a bit confused about his behaviour...

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Re: 11 weeks old - OT baby
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2016, 14:10:14 pm »
OK, I suggest you keep going as you are for now whilst I try to get a sense of what suits him.
It could be that he had some OT which initially led to those 30 min naps you mentioned in your first post but that now he is better slept he actually does better on a longer A time. I'm not 100% sure tbh (especially as he seemed much easier to resettle on the day you started shorter A time and he did 2hr sleep after the resettle) and just thinking if I keep looking at his routine I'll get more idea of him as we go along.
Sorry I don't have a clear cut answer for you at the moment.

How's his mood in general, it sounds like he is happy and well rested now but I'm aware in your first post you said he is exhausted.
And are things feeling any easier for you too?


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Re: 11 weeks old - OT baby
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2016, 15:47:02 pm »
Mhmm, the day is getting worse and worse... :(

September 3rd
WU: 07.40
E: 08.45
A
S: 10.10 (WD from 09.58), awake 10.45 (W2S failed), resettling failed, together on the sofa until feed, good mood
E: 11.50
A
S: 01.34 (WD from 01.24, I wanted to do it before but he pooed), W2S failed, wide awake crying 02.07, resettling failed, very fussy all the time, I keep him in my arms until feed
E: 02.45
A
S: 03.30 (WD from 03.17), awake crying after 5 minutes (I was still shush patting him in the crib), resettled 04.24 (in the meanwhile he cries, then drowsy, then cries, all in my arms), awake crying after 5 minutes (I was still shush patting him in the crib), I give up, he cries in my arms
E: 05.19 till now

I really don't know what's wrong with him, some things work one day and the other they don't... When I put him in the crib his eyes are slightly opened, and he doesn't cry when I put him down, but he stays quiet for about 5 min and only then he suddenly cries. I keep shush-patting him without interruption... I'd like to settle him without picking him up, like this video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4edQ0t_XALo
but it doesn't seem to work (maybe I give up too early, today I've tried for 7 minutes). Maybe I'm doing some other AP, I don't know...

In these days, since I wrote here for the first time, he stayed generally better, more relaxed, but then there are days like this that really discourage me... I really want him to have a good relation with sleep, but I'm often tired and confused...

Thanks for your kindness!!

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Re: 11 weeks old - OT baby
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2016, 18:46:35 pm »
Sorry to hear you are feeling discouraged.  Sleep training does take time and it can be frustrating too.

Well, I can barely believe I'm going to suggest this but considering you are doing long A times anyway I don't think it's too far outside the box to give it a shot. But it's up to you.  Here's what I think looking at your times and your success/no-success.
First A timed from WU 3hrs (the A time of a 6 month old)
Second A timed from end of nap 1 2hrs
Third A 2hrs...and try to aim for BT around 7 or 8pm rather than later, time depending on how naps went and a suitable A time before BT.
However if any nap is less than 1hr I suggest you to reduce the A time right down to 1hr 30, beginning WD at 1hr 15 to aim for him to be asleep by 1hr 30.  If you try to settle him for 30 mins and he is still not settling then come out of the room for a short while (feed if needed) and then begin WD again shortly after.

S: 01.34 (WD from 01.24, I wanted to do it before but he pooed), W2S failed, wide awake crying 02.07, resettling failed, very fussy all the time, I keep him in my arms until feed
E: 02.45
A
S: 03.30 (WD from 03.17), awake crying after 5 minutes (I was still shush patting him in the crib), resettled 04.24 (in the meanwhile he cries, then drowsy, then cries, all in my arms), awake crying after 5 minutes (I was still shush patting him in the crib), I give up, he cries in my arms
for reference these two naps sound very OT.  The A time from end of nap 1 to beginning of nap 2 is almost 3hrs and this appears to be way too long.

The video is nice, something to aim for :)