Night waking

[SarahE]

Hi there,

Just after some advice...for the last 3 weeks or so sleep at night has become disrupted...not horrific and I know a lot of people gave it worse, but not great either as I can see a change in my Lo during the day.

We have over the last few weeks had random night wakings - 1-2 between 2-5am where she wakes up screaming. This coincided with a little resistance to settling to sleep at bed time. And in the last week we have had wake ups 40 mins to an hour after BT.

Prior to this she was self settling...BT routine was breast feed, story, sleep bag bed. Occasionally she would start nodding off at the story point so you go straight to sleepbag and bed. She was sleeping 11-12 hrs at night with no NF or nws. Her day gaps were 1x 1.5 and 1 X 2. She stopped having a third nap about a month or so ago after sometimes having it and sometimes not.
Prior to the change in her night sleep her naps shortened so I extended wake time. We were consistently getting 2 X 1.5 hrs in the day but we started getting 1 X 1.5 and 1 X 45-1hr nap. This was when the waking started shorty after BT.

So I guess the waking shorty after BT is OT so yesterday I reduced her wake time, so her day looked like this:
7 - wake up
9.30 - nap
11 - wake
1.45 - nap
3.55 - wake
6.45 bed - resisted and cried though looked very tired...went to sleep at 7.30 (BT was previously 7).


We had no wake up shortly after BT so with 2 big naps and no wake ups we though we had cracked it...until 3.30 this am when she woke with a very loud high pitched scream. She was able to be comforted intermittently but even when held would scream a little once calm. When popped back in bed she would explode in screams...she would calm after some patting but as soon as she saw we (hubby attempted too) had moved away or left the room she screamed high pitched again. We checked all bases, nappy, warmth, hunger (she had fed well in day on milk and had three solid Neale of approx 1/2 cup - she started solids at 6 months and is now 7.5). I knew she shouldn't be hungry as she's not had woke for NF for about 3 months. But I fed her and she eat well (it had been 9 hrs since last fed at this point.

She was still upset and screaming after so we resorted to Pamol. I had visited the Drs about three weeks ago following no wet nappy overnight, and change in her normal behaviour - generally more upset and cranky, pulling ears, dribbling. I though teething but wanted to check for ear infection. Dr said all good and thought teething and advised Pamol for pain relief. Still no teeth at mo and to be honest I can't tell if they are coming or not...the only thing I notice is lots of chewing, some days more drool then others and some days her gums feel warmer that norm.

Other things going on at the moment...she learnt to army crawl about three weeks ago and is spending a lot of time rocking on all fours. She's also more upset when we leave the room, though sometimes totally fine, other times very unhappy.

I know this sleep issues isn't bad compared to some... My prob is once she wakes and is back yo sleep I can't get back to sleep again so essentially am up from 3.30am! Although very tired...I'm more worried as I start back at work soon and don't think I can function on so little sleep if this continues!

TIA 

[lolsyb1982]

Hi

That routine you posted looks good! It does sound more like discomfort than routine which is causing the waking and screaming during the night. If you give pain meds does it make any difference?

[SarahE]

Hi lolsby1982,

Yes, we have given Pamol and each time we gave made that decision she has fallen back to sleep, having left her either drowsy but awake or calm and awake, she had gone to sleep about 10-15 mins later.

I'm just hesitant to give her Pamol even though it's only once in 24 hrs and not every night, it can be three or four nights in a row and I start thinking it's an easy option and I'm just going to Pamol as an easy option.

Though would be be right in thinking if if it wasn't pain Pamol wouldn't do anything.

We were wondering if it was digestive discomfort however there are no burps, farts or poops or drawing legs up. We have stopped giving her protein at dinner or lunch so she only has been eating it the last couple of days in the morning. Her solids currently consist of veggies, fish, beef and chicken.

I just popped her down for her nap and had the same scream...I thought I would given her a couple of minutes then go back in...after 2-3 mins she was fast asleep...so it's things like this with the same scream makes me wonder if it is really pain...

[FPT23]

Hi!

Stopping by and quickly skimmed the post--- I'm not sure about the screaming you speak of which of course, if you feel it is pain then by all means, medicate. Hugs and hope that if that's the issue it passes quickly

What popped out for me was the "shortly waking after BT" ...we've had that very often around here, and every time, it's UT. As if he's not AS tired to continue sleeping all night as usual. As you approach 7 months your looking at something closer to 3hrs. A time looks great but that waking after maybe means, she's not ready for BT? Worth a shot as it is almost always the case with us. Of course all babies differ

BUT, I do want to add that with new skills tey tire quickly. I wouldn't suggest capping A times but something to be aware of it happens

Xo

[SarahE]

Hi FPT23,

Ah i thought I'd read that short wake up after bed was OT and hard to settle was UT. When she wakes shorty after she's is reasonably easy to resettle.

But I get what you are saying. Tonight's bedtime was a nightmare...she had good naps today, a 2 hr morning and an hour afternoon. She woke at 3pm so was aiming for a 6pm BT. She had been on off cranky from about 4pm...lots of chewing on teething toys and distraction got her through. She ended up going to sleep at 7.15 after screaming on being put in her cot, tried pats, back rubbing, dummy, cuddles. She eventually calmed after being held for a min and snuggled in but shortly after going back into her bed she started whimpering as I patted/rubbed, then quietened but as soon I left the room she got very upset and was inconsolable. Even after cuddles she continued to scream. I gave pain relief and she fell asleep after 10 mins.

I am finding it really hard and when I'm in it part of me feels it's a separation anxiety thing as its seems like when I leave she screams and when I'm rubbing her back she turns her head like to check if I'm there...but then when I leave and come back she's inconsolable.

She's actually just woke now and self settled...so her last A time was 3 hrs 15 and her wake up. Wasn't as short as it has been, it was 1 hour 35 mins... and obv she self settled rather than waking with a scream.

So we are 7.5 months so approaching 8 months...what A time would I be looking at?

I find it difficult to decide if she's in pain with the screaming, I'm a ftm so limited experience, and I'd hate to think I'm giving pain relief when it wasn't needed but each time I've eventually made that decision she has settled within 10-15 mins...which I've been told suggests pain?...

[lolsyb1982]

Here is a link for the average A times Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!
Waking 30 min after bed is more often because of OT and certainly is the case for us. Each child is different though and what makes it so hard for us mums to figure out what routine works for our baby!
I remember feeling with dd1 that I was constantly giving her pain meds but her teeth were very slow to cut and they are pretty much teething constantly! There's no harm in giving her the medicine so if it were me I would ahead until the teeth are through x

[FPT23]

Hello!

Maybe she prefers shorter evenings to BT but more A during the day? I would try and push A a tad. But of course all we can do is offer advice and hope for the best

I found so much help and support here 5 years ago myself as a FTM. It's always a guessing game with these babies. We never really know and the best thing to do is try and try ...nothing wrong with pain meds if that's what you feel she needs. It's not like your giving high dosage and it will harm her in anyway, yk? Even as a second time mom here, I'm left guessing and doing the whole trial and error bit.

She could very well be doing SA as my LO has been going through that too! Naps are essentially a breeze but BT is interesting ...I realized keeping my hand on his bottom stopped the screaming ...so I want to safely assume it was SA with us lately too. He also needed a jump in A time as he had begun a few NWs. The way I see it, they need to be just tired enough to sleep all the way through. Sure teething and developmental leaps play a roll sometimes in NWs, but this time around for us it was just a Mayer of the right amount of A time.

Hope it helps you in some way and I know it's hard especially the first time around! But you'll be back for seconds in no time

Hugs

[SarahE]

Thanks FPT23

Defo helped  they are little mystery aren't they!  I pushed arvo a time today as morning one seems tricky keeping her up til 9.30 and we get a 1.5 nap off that. I pushed the arvo one and got 2 hrs, wake up was 4 so aimed for a 7.15 BT...didn't settle until 8.15....no pain meds despite feeling it was teething...we ended up raising one end of her cot and lots of cuddles.

She woke at 11pm screaming and though initially seemed to be settling with a back rub she became in consolable. I checked usual bases and gave her a feed as for one reason or another we missed to solid feeds today...still screamed after though fed fully. Administered pain relief...managed to escape the room and just watching her self settle at 12.30am Zzzzzzz!

[FPT23]

So sorry to hear about that!

Ok, when you push A times hun, you want to push ONE A time, at a time. Not all of them, kwim? Or she will be a lot more OT. It is a good sign that even with pushing though, your naps remained long so thats a good sign she is ready. But try with what you feel is best. Does she prefer shorter mornings and maybe a longer afternoon A time? Then don't push the morning A and just push her second A before her second nap by 15 mins...keep it this way for about 3-4 days. Once you see she's doing well and nap continues to be long, then perhaps you can gently push her morning A the same way- just that one. See what I mean?

Pushing A times can get her a tired and it will happen so do an EBT, when needed to help her catch up.

With her solids, how are you providing those atm? What's your routine with solids since you started? You said you just begun recently correct? What are the solids your giving her?

many hugs.

[SarahE]

Yes that makes sens. I have always felt she likes a shorter morning A time.

She started solids at 6 months and is now 7.5 months.

They are puréed but moving to it being more chunky. We are also adding some foods in the mesh nets now. We started with lunch then after 3-4 weeks added dinner but changed this the brekkie after a week as we thought it was interfering with her evening milk intake causing her to wake for a feed in the night. Last week we added dinner. We offer her about half a cup now. Some times she eat it all other times she doesn't. At the moment she eats veggies mainly, meat 4-5 times a week (mince beef, chicken, fish - though don't think she is keen on chicken so giving that a miss this week). We have just started to add fruit (pear and apple). We wanted to get her established on veggies first before adding foods with more fructose.  Her veggies so far include, orange sweet potato, red sweet potato, potato, spinach, cauliflower, courgette, peas, pumpkin, parsnip, Brussel sprouts, and red pepper.

We are doing milk before solids though in the morning despite not having milk for 12--13 hrs so only takes one side as usually she spills a lot if she has more. She then has her solids about 15-30mins after.

This is how we look food wise

7/7.30 BF one side
7.30/8 - solids
9.15 - top up BF pre nap both sides offered
11.30 - BF both sides offered usually takes one
12 ish - solids
1.30 - BF both sides offered
4/4.30 - BF
5 - solids - occasionally top up BF after
6/6.30 BF - both sides offered - time dependant on BT.

I have tried cutting BF as been told she feeds too frequently and if I cut then she will take bigger feeds but after 1 week of cutting (we have tried twice) it had every time resulted in a night waking to feed - she's taken full feeds both sides at the night wakings). So I'm hesitant to cut it as it seems to work for us. I guess it will likely change when she starts daycare in 8 weeks.

[SarahE]

Just thought it's worth saying my daughters tired cues and hungry cues are pretty much identical so I find it hard to distinguish!

[FPT23]

Oh ok thanks! I thought the solids were recent.

I think formula/breast milk is more important than solids still and i wouldn't cut any of those. I guess as far as solids, just to rule out all things, be aware of the amount of solids and what solids you are providing at BT.

With BF, the longer you go without feeds, keep in mind that can also take a drop in supply. Have you noticed any milk supply issues? I also want to mention, NFs are still common with BF babies. One NW at least so if you've made changes to her daytime nursing sessions, it might just be affecting her nights and she genuinely is hungry. I BF as well and continue to on demand ....it's tricky isn't it so much work and not so natural as they make it seem

What's her A time currently? Our babies are around the same age... my LO just recently needed a leap in A time and when I pushed over a week or.2, he went back to his normal night sleep. I know there's a regression around 8-10 mths? Or 9-11 mths... sigh haha all babies are different but my LO is at about 3-3.15hr A but in the late afternoons  has been changing to needing a bit more lately it seems? He's always been longer mornings, shorter afternoons, baby... but that flipped recently. Could be because he's adjusted to our school runs. But, where do you stand currently- more or less?

[SarahE]

Yes, I'm happy to keep up the amount of day BF.

Her A time is about 3 hrs sometimes a little more.

We get hr up in the morning at 7 but she's generally awaake from 6.30 - her morning nap is pretty solid if at home - 9.30/9.45 for 1.5. Hrs

Her arvo one is less consistent. I think 2pm is the right time for her but two days a week she has activities which finish at 1.15/1.30...bad though they are only 10 mins from home those little eyes always close a few minutes before home but she wakes as the car stops. I've tried taking her straight to bed but it doesn't happen. I've found waiting another 45 mins works and we generally get a 2 hr nap then.

If I get her down when at home in the arvo at 2 sometimes she sleeps 1 hrs making BT very early...but sometimes she does 1.5-2 hrs....

I agree BF isn't as natural as the say!

[SarahE]

Well we have had a funny day!


No night wakings last night though she did wake with a scream at 1.50am. By time I woke, found my glasses and looked at the monitor she had stopped and was shuffling herself back to sleep. She was awake about 6.40 ish and got her up at 7.

We were out for the day so planned first nap in the car (she generally falls asleep earlier than normal nap time and only for 30/35 mins...(she used to sleep well in the car but this is generally her max now). today she fell asleep early  an hour after her usual nap time so 3 hr 50 awake time and slept for 50 mins. Then we headed home at the time of her second nap...she fell asleep again nearly an hour later than her normal nap time and slept the usual 35 mins in the car. I took her up to bed at after 3 hrs so aiming for 3.15 A time before bed. She was relatively easy to put to bed...we haven't heard a peep from her and she's been less restless....

I know this is just one day but I'm wondering if like you said maybe she's just not been tired enough to sleep through...

What is the average sleep him for a nearly 8 month old.

Don't get me wrong I think she needs more than a 50 min and 35 min nap in the day, but with her usually clocking 11-12 hrs at night I'm wondering if she needs less than the 3 hrs she's generally been getting....

[lolsyb1982]

We needed a max of 2.5 at that age. 3hrs was too much so could well be she needs a bit less to get a good night.