FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!

[becj86]

10mins in to the WD or 10 mins into being in the pram she'll yawn and I think yes! I've got her in her sleepy place before overtiredness hits but then it's still an hour or more, usually, before the proper sleep comes.

So this can happen when LO is still working out how tiredness works - that's why it helps to get them at their sleep window because they don't know when it is themselves, really - if you PD UT, they're not ready for sleep so don't go to sleep but then they get OT instead of just falling asleep when they get to perfect tiredness level.

I think in your shoes, I'd concentrate on the feeding and the wind. Getting that sorted I think will make a big difference to the sleep. Did you have a look at the link to http://www.biologicalnurturing.com/video/bn3clip.html? Laid back nursing made a big difference when DS was being showered (seriously, I'd catch nearly 3oz if I put a container in place to catch the letdown on the breast DS wasn't latched to) with milk.

[ellieelmo]

Thank you for that link.

We've had a rough day, 20 mins in the sling post immunisations, 45mins in the prom and now after trying the nurturing position for feeding dd has been sleeping on me for 3hrs with no sign of waking... So we're massively deviating from bedtime again *sigh*.

The doctor says he sees no sign of it being reflux and did a full exam to rule out anything else. He kind of was suggesting that her waking is more emotional than physical like because I am worrying /anxious and struggling she's picking up on that and "checking up" on me every few hours. I know babies are super sensitive to your mood but I just can't relax into motherhood as I'm so worried about her lack of sleep hindering her development and growth (despite evidence of the contrary). It's a vicious circle that I need to mentally get myself out of.

Ironically, I read all this stuff when waiting for her to arrive (10 days post my due date) about my needing to relax and stop stressing about being overdue, to bring on labour and just couldn't mentally do that. Until I had a hilarious conversation with my sister, laughed SO hard and my husband brought home flowers and a sweet card (it was valentine's night) and I literally felt my mood lift and a huge lump in my throat, a couple of hours later I was in active labour.

So I guess I've answered my own question there, I need to chill and focus as you say, on her needs day by day and showing her that there's some predictability in her day that she can rely upon and relax into which in turn will help me relax. It's just so crushing when we're out and she's crying and people say 'ooo that's not a happy baby' I KNOW, I just don't know how to relax her into sleep so she'll not be overtired and upset so much.

[becj86]

Yes, relaxing into it is a big part of it too. Knowing that Dr has looked her over thoroughly and found nothing serious should help you relax a bit too. Try that nurturing position some more - honestly just relaxing for feeds made such a difference for us.

FWIW, even with our atrocious start, DS was walking at 8.5 months and said his first word (a stranger noticed it before I did) at 9 months. The lack of sleep I think must have to be pretty horrendous to delay development by much provided baby has a loving family and is having physical needs met.

It's just so crushing when we're out and she's crying and people say 'ooo that's not a happy baby' I KNOW, I just don't know how to relax her into sleep so she'll not be overtired and upset so much.

I know its much easier said than done but really you just have to ignore these people or find a nice sentence that stops them in their tracks. I had someone tell me DS was hungry when I'd literally just unlatched him from a big feed. They don't know your baby or you and they are commenting without any of the necessary information to draw conclusions so they're basically just trying to make conversation in a clumsy way. Maybe you could say something like: "Yes, she doesn't like strangers much" or "Yes, she's tired so I need to get her out of these bright lights / this noisy place".

I still think a lot of her waking is related to the gas. Waking every few hours is perfectly reasonable at her age - for food Its those every 30min-1hr times that are getting to you more so (yes?) and that I think you can sort that by getting the feeding sorted.

Have you tried doing some specific relaxation techniques? You can even do some, like visualisation type techniques with LO during/after a feed or before a nap - talk her through it or listen to one as she's latching for a laid back feed.

Hugs xx I wish I could pop by to give you a hug and a break. Pity you're on the other side of the world!

[ellieelmo]

Thank you again!
I've had some success I think with the biological nurturing position. In that LO has a full feed and then burps then I put her on the other side and she feeds for a minute before falling asleep. So we're making nap progress for sure but still no success re not providing a crutch.

I've been recording another EASY as things are better but still weird. Yesterday I got a massive load of wind out of her which I thought would mean a more comfortable nights sleep but she woke every 1.5hrs. There was no crying or whimpering each time, I just woke to the sound of her kicking her legs and it took an age to get her down again 

I've gone back to using the infacol for 3-5 days at every feed to see if that makes any difference to her discomfort. I've stopped offering the breast too but have found if I offer a top up feed before a nap it kind of gives her an energy boost and she's no longer sleepy but if I don't she's only asleep for 30mins before waking and ravenous 

[becj86]

So we're making nap progress for sure but still no success re not providing a crutch.

That's fine. The independent sleep will come in time.

There was no crying or whimpering each time, I just woke to the sound of her kicking her legs and it took an age to get her down again   

If she's not upset, just leave her. Your job is to offer her the environment and time in which to sleep - her job is to sleep.

I've stopped offering the breast too but have found if I offer a top up feed before a nap it kind of gives her an energy boost and she's no longer sleepy but if I don't she's only asleep for 30mins before waking and ravenous 

Ok, so quite a common issue - what you can try is offering a topup ~45min after the first feed so she's not feeding to sleep or getting that energy boost right before nap time but she's more likely to get through her nap.
eg. 7 - WU, feed
7:45/8 - feed
8:30 - nap
10 - feed
etc.

She could also be wanting to feed back to sleep - she'd be most likely OT waking at 30min and some babies' sleepy cues are mistaken for hunger cues.
She could also be in discomfort - she may want to feed to relieve pain from gas/reflux.

[ellieelmo]

I still think a lot of her waking is related to the gas. Waking every few hours is perfectly reasonable at her age - for food  Its those every 30min-1hr times that are getting to you more so (yes?) and that I think you can sort that by getting the feeding sorted.

Absolutely! If I could get to 4hr stretches at night and 2hr stretches in the day I would be over the moon, even more so if I could figure out how to get her to sleep once she's shown those sleepy cues which I think I am beginning to be able to recognise with some certainty,

​Ok here goes:

S 4.25 - 5.39 co sleeping
E/S 5.39 - 9 basically she's in bed with me, breast out and sleeps/feeds as she likes usually until 9ish. I keep telling myself I need to stay awake to work out when she's sleeping but am so tired I don't. This also makes the A time really hard to figure. Will try harder. What I do know is that every time she wakes she's cranky and rubbing her eyes so I encourage her to go back to sleep with a hug and pats and shushing.

E 9 - 9.15
A 9.15 - 11.09
E 10.30 top up feed and thorough burp. tried rocking, bouncing but she just got very cross so gave breast and she dropped off
S 11.09 - 11.30 in my arms (woken by builders next door wouldn't go back)

E 12.20 - 12.30
A 11.30 13.35 put her in pushchair at 12.50 and she was really cross after about 5 mins of looking around. Stopped every few mins for a cuddle and reassurance but no avail, as the cries turned to whimpers I pushed faster and she settled
S 13.35 - 14.50 in pushchair, I had been pushing it around but stopped as it was really hot here and I'm tired! so she woke. Could be a coincidence but unlikely. Woke happy though.

E 15.05 - 15.19
A 15.05 - 16.45 started rubbing eyes at 15.55 (perhaps because earlier nap was shortened by my stopping pushing?) tried to change activity, then calm and rock to sleep but no luck. Eventually gave breast. Was going to try an have this nap in the pushchair again but she was cranky and crying with her eyes closed (tired cry) that I didn't want to stress her any further.
S 16.45 - 19.00 in my arms I put her down with the hope that she'd either keep sleeping independently so I could or wake up. She woke but was very happy and smiley and no eye rubbing. Later than the ideal but again I still think I need to break the back of this chronic overtiredness so letting her sleep as and when.

BT 19.30
E 20.00- 20.25 so after nursing she was drowsy so I started gentle patting and shushing, transferred her to basket where she promptly woke up smiling and chortling. Tried patting and shushing and I swear for 1 second it looked like her eyes were getting heavy so I ducked out of view and kept going but she started chortling and kicking so I picked her up. So ensued lots of back arching crying and arms flailing until 21.30 or so when she slowed to a whimper. Then conked out on my shoulder. It's as if she doesn't want me to interfere with her getting off to sleep but if I don't (just put her down) she goes crazy with upset.
S 21.45 - 23.40 No idea why she woke here, no wind, no legs kicking, no sucking, no crying. I offered breast and she just smiled up at me cooing, then I tried back rubbing and she started hand gnawing. Then dh came home so he took her for 10mins. Then laid her down for skin to skin which calmed her, she started rooting so fed her. She fell asleep at 1.
S 1-3.15
E 3.15 - 3.30
S 3.30 - 4.25
E ?
S - 6.20
E 6.20 - 6.45
S 6.45 - 7.30

E 7.30 - 7.40
A 7.30 - 9.30 heavy eyelids, looking away from toys, fussiness
S dozing at the breast 9.30 - 10.30
S 10.30 - 11.10 on her own! on our bed! after I put her down!

E 11.10 - 11.25
A 11.10 - 13.15 in pushchair at 12.35
S 13.15 - 14.00 crying etc. picked up for a cuddle 4/5 times before she went off. Stopped pushchair after she'd been asleep for 5 mins to save my walking.

E 14.00 - 14.15 both sides
A 14.00 - 15.00
S 15.00 - 15.30 I stopped pushing the pushchair

E 16.10 - 16.30
A 15.30 - 17.30 prepared for a nap at 16.30 thinking she would be cranky soon because the earlier nap was cut short. she began do​z​ing at the breast so I began rocking and shushing, she fell asleep so I put her in her basket but she woke crying loudly, calmed her by picking up, tried to rock her but she just got more and more cross so I fed her and lo and behold she nursed, unlatched and fell asleep in my arms.
S 17.30 - 19.36 in my arms until 19.00
E 19.36 - 19.45
BT 20.00
E 20.20 - 20.40
S 21.00 - 23.30

E 23.35 - 23.45
S 12.00 - 3.30!!!
E ​3.35 - 3.50, then into bed with us, couldn't settle for the terrible wind. Pooped at 5.30 then
E 5.45 - 6.00 
A 3.35 - 6.00
S​ 6.00 - 6.55

Oh dear.

Even when she's nursing and unlatches herself really drowsily she keeps jerking her head away as if she doesn't want to rest her head. As if sleep or having her head down is scary for her. She's showing that she's tired, I'm doing everything I can to facilitate her sleeping but she just won't rest. I am so exhausted now I either nurse her to sleep, which has started working again, or co-sleep. But even when co-sleeping she gets really cross as if she wants to be asleep within a second and is annoyed that it's taking so long to drop off. So she latches and then stops as if too tired to continue sucking, I unlatch her and she's fine for about a minute before she starts getting upset that it's taking too long and round and round we go.  Sounds like she's overstimulated?

When I unlatch her and try to do gentle pats and back rub to get her back to sleep it's as if this wakes her up further and then starts the fussiness and crying. And, as soon as I bring her into the bedroom for a nap and hold her upright for WD she starts fussing and then full blown crying. It's like she knows we're here to sleep and she doesn't want to.

​Sigh.

[becj86]

So, you're making some progress. There are some good naps and some good stretches at night in there

Sounds like she's overstimulated?

Nope, just chronically OT I think. You know when you're so tired you can't get off to sleep? That's what's happening for her at the moment, so really, I think breastfeeding to sleep is fine for now if that's what has to happen to get her body used to sleeping again and to really get through this chronic OT.

Even when she's nursing and unlatches herself really drowsily she keeps jerking her head away as if she doesn't want to rest her head. As if sleep or having her head down is scary for her.

Could be the chronic OT - that'd be my bet but worth considering reflux as a component for sure.

 

When I unlatch her and try to do gentle pats and back rub to get her back to sleep it's as if this wakes her up further and then starts the fussiness and crying.

What if you don't do the shushing and patting and just leave her?

S 11.09 - 11.30 in my arms (woken by builders next door wouldn't go back)

So upsetting when that happens. Have you tried showing her what's making the noise? I finally twigged with DS that if he knew what the noise was, he would sleep through it but otherwise he would wake and be really wired.

Tried patting and shushing and I swear for 1 second it looked like her eyes were getting heavy so I ducked out of view and kept going but she started chortling and kicking so I picked her up.

Firstly, no need to duck out of view - that's more movement for her to watch and reawaken. I found if I closed my eyes while shush/patting, DS would often do the same. I think if she's happy in bed, just keep going with the shush/pat or leave and see if she goes off to sleep. Getting her back up when its definitely sleep time will just help her maintain that second wind.

Overall, whilst things are definitely still not ideal, she's getting a lot more sleep than she was and it looks like her discomfort is managed much better than it was when you first posted so you've done really well.

[ellieelmo]

You know when you're so tired you can't get off to sleep?

All too well.

What if you don't do the shushing and patting and just leave her?

She slowly works herself up and I haven't got the wind up so risk it interrupting her sleep later.

Well today has been interesting. Yesterday she managed two naps of 30mins and 45mins in the sling after A times of 3hrs 15 and 1.5hrs. The 45mins nap ending at 2pm. She had a 10minute power nap at 3pm also in the sling and then nothing. As she was so visibly tired I brought forward her bath, still trying to aim for 1.5hrs of A time. So the evening went like this:

A 15.10 - 18.30
E 15.30 -  15.40
E 17.30 - 17.45
BT 18.00 
S 18.30 - 19.00

E 19.00 - 19.25
S 19.32 - 2.00
E 2.00 - 2.20
S 2.20 - 4.20
E 4.20 - 4.30
S 4.33 - 6.24

A 6.34 - 7.50
E 7.00 - 7.10
S 7.50 - 8.10 started at 7.30 as she started to really fuss and look red around the eyes. She was calmish until 7.40 when started the screaming and back arching.
S 8.33 - 9.00 woke without crying and just cooing in basket. I left her thinking she might resettle but she didn't and started the screaming crying.

A 9 - 9.55
E 9.30 - 9.45
S 9.55 - 14.35 she unlatched herself and fell asleep then woke twice more at 11.30 and 1pm to feed (I was holding her this whole time without a top on so she could just latch and unlatch as she wanted) but each time it wasn't a proper feed just a few comfort sucks really then unlatched just after letdown.

A 14.35 - 16.40
E 15.00 - 15.20
S 16.40 - 17.00 in pram. I put her in at 15.40 thinking she'd have 25 mins of looking around at the park before the motion soothed her to sleep. I had to pick her up about 5 times before she went off. Each time I picked her up she silenced immediately, I explained what we were doing and put her in and she'd start to cry again.
Came home at 17.30 and just letting her play for half an hour before BT.

What should I have done differently today? I was keen for her to have the rest she needs of course but I'm also conscious that I'm making things worse by letting her sleep on me for such long periods at the risk of messing up her day and night?
What does that really long night sleep mean? That her little body is so exhausted it just gave up and she slept?

Other stuff, she has basically been gnawing her fingers for 5 days, I've not been offering the breast but read this as a comfort thing because she's overtired?
She was really happy over the weekend, having a 2hr nap both on saturday and sunday in our bed, and then a little top up nap in the afternoon at the breast then not too bad night sleep; 2.5hr stretches until 5am. But it all seems to have gone horribly wrong. She has also started doing this really loud shrieking noise, i haven't worked out what it means, she does it at all different times and it doesn't progress to crying ever.

On the plus side she didn't wake this morning because of wind or needing to poop, oh yes, just remembered, I kept waking in the night because of her passing wind but it didn't seem to bother her. I could hear her trying to push it out without crying or waking, it appeared. Maybe the infacol is working in that respect.

Agh, i am just so lost. I can't seem to work out any reasonable A times, if I think it's 1hr 30 shes cranky at 1hr, then has a power nap (10/20mins) then I don't know whether to treat that as a sleep and reset the A time (if I do shes cranky after an hour or less) if I don't she seems to be able (well i know shes not able but she does) to go for 3/4hrs A time and then crash.

I did have high hopes for the sling naps yesterday but no luck and I was beginning to think she would only do long stretches on me  / in out bed because shes on her side so getting relief from any digestion pain, but then last night changed all that. Shes 15 weeks today and i really wanted to have some sense of progress before the 4month regression hits and it all gets worse. If that's possible.

[becj86]

S 19.32 - 2.00

Well that's a good stretch I don't think that's an exhaustion sleep because the next few stretches weren't horrendously short. Yes, shorter than you'd like but 2hr is pretty reasonable for her at that time of night, yk.

S 9.55 - 14.35 she unlatched herself and fell asleep then woke twice more at 11.30 and 1pm to feed (I was holding her this whole time without a top on so she could just latch and unlatch as she wanted) but each time it wasn't a proper feed just a few comfort sucks really then unlatched just after letdown

This is probably a bit long for a day nap. In your shoes I'd have probably let her sleep too just because she's so OT and because I wanted some time in which she wasn't crying I would say that as a once-off its probably fine but wouldn't want to get this as a habit, so wake after 2hr or so and have some more A time.

Other stuff, she has basically been gnawing her fingers for 5 days, I've not been offering the breast but read this as a comfort thing because she's overtired?

or teething or just finding her fingers are pretty awesome. Really normal stuff for a baby this age.

She has also started doing this really loud shrieking noise, i haven't worked out what it means, she does it at all different times and it doesn't progress to crying ever.

Quite possibly just finding her voice, enjoying making a new sound. Unlikely to be anything sinister given it doesn't progress to crying.

Shes 15 weeks today and i really wanted to have some sense of progress before the 4month regression hits and it all gets worse. If that's possible.

Its unlikely to get any worse. I didn't know there even was such a thing until I found this site when DS was 5mo. I had BWSAYP and just did 4hr easy by the clock for a few days at 4 months and everything fit really well and things got better from there.

There has definitely been progress.

S 18.30 - 19.00 E 19.00 - 19.25S 19.32 - 2.00E 2.00 - 2.20 S 2.20 - 4.20 E 4.20 - 4.30 S 4.33 - 6.24

This night here, she had a 12hr night with one OT NW early in the evening and 2 NWs. That's pretty good for this age. Who knows? You could be turning a corner with these long stretches of sleep and breaking the back of that OT. I've got my fingers crossed for you! If you have another good night, maybe try 1:45-2hr A times and see how that goes.

[ellieelmo]

Well, sadly that wasn't the start of a change
The longest stretch at night in the last week has been 4hrs with gradual decreases as the night wears on. But, on the positive side dd has been 'ready' for bed (bathed, story, fed) by 7pm and then goes to sleep at either 7.15, 7.45 or 7.55 and that's been for a week so progress, and some consistency.

There have actually been some naps - mostly 30 or 50 mins but dd won't go down for them at all, she has to be held. After 1.45 A time, she will fall asleep within 15mins of rocking so I'm thinking that's approx the right A time. But when I try and put her down she wakes crying, I'll try about 3 times before giving up and just holding her. What's going on?? This doesn't happen at all at night time, she has been (touch wood) going down at the first attempt.

Wind is still a problem, last nights wakenings were after 4.30hrs, 3hrs, 1hr, 1hr the wake up after 3hrs was deffo not from hunger but discomfort and the last two OT? I'm still giving the infacol but can't see it making a difference. It's also getting super hard to wind her for some reason, I'm rarely getting anything ever. But dd has had a cold this week so could be waking due to that.

Another positive! I've been working hard to put her down again at 5.30am / 6.30am after the leg kicking and poo, thinking, if she's only gone to bed at 7.45pm she needs to get used to a 12hr night. She'll go down for another hour or so and it's a precious lie in for me!

I've massively (or she has) reduced the number of feedings in the day now which I hope will help with the wind as you suggested. And subsequently we've got rid of the nursing to sleep apart from the catnap at 4.15 which I'm so desperate for and having been up half the night I'm on my last legs so whatever works!

A few questions:
Sometimes when dd goes down at night she wakes up again after 50mins and then it takes 40mins or so to resettle her?
Do A times decrease throughout the day? 1.45, 1.20, 1.15? or could this be related to overtiredness still?
We've been out in the sling quite a bit and I've noticed about 4 yawns before she just drops off with in 5mins, this has been after about 1.20 or 1.30 A time. But then she's only sleeping for 30 or 40 mins and then waking with a few blinks. OT?

I know I shouldn't be biting off more than I can chew but how does the drowsy but awake work? I put her down once I've heard her breathing change and as soon as she's down she squirms, has a stretch, might blink a few times, and then closes her eyes to sleep. I'm trying to obviously ease towards putting her down awake in the next 2 months hopefully.

I did think I was making progress but last night was rough and today we had 2 x 30mins and 1 x 40mins naps and that's all - all in the sling.

[becj86]

Wind is still a problem, last nights wakenings were after 4.30hrs, 3hrs, 1hr, 1hr the wake up after 3hrs was deffo not from hunger but discomfort and the last two OT?

Did you feed at the 3hr waking? If so, likely wind for those 1hr later wakings. So common with the extra flow after a while without feeding whilst you're resting - body just makes lots of milk

Her sleep will be a little off with a cold too.

I've massively (or she has) reduced the number of feedings in the day now which I hope will help with the wind as you suggested. And subsequently we've got rid of the nursing to sleep apart from the catnap at 4.15 which I'm so desperate for and having been up half the night I'm on my last legs so whatever works!

Well done, this is half the battle and sounds like she's a bit more comfortable in the day.

Sometimes when dd goes down at night she wakes up again after 50mins and then it takes 40mins or so to resettle her?

That's pretty classically OT from the short naps of the day. Its awful when its happening because you just want the night to be the NIGHT! You've made lots of progress and I think whilst this will be an issue again, it will likely settle once her day's a bit more reliable.

Do A times decrease throughout the day? 1.45, 1.20, 1.15? or could this be related to overtiredness still?

Yes they can - depending on the baby. I think yours might be reducing due to the short naps though which is also reasonable.

We've been out in the sling quite a bit and I've noticed about 4 yawns before she just drops off with in 5mins, this has been after about 1.20 or 1.30 A time. But then she's only sleeping for 30 or 40 mins and then waking with a few blinks. OT?

She might just be associating it with sleep or maybe its nice and warm and comfy and she can hear your heartbeat and she's moving that little bit as you walk and she just falls asleep. Do you keep walking and try to resettle her?

I know I shouldn't be biting off more than I can chew but how does the drowsy but awake work? I put her down once I've heard her breathing change and as soon as she's down she squirms, has a stretch, might blink a few times, and then closes her eyes to sleep. I'm trying to obviously ease towards putting her down awake in the next 2 months hopefully.

This is the start Now when you're doing this, try to notice what happens before her breathing changes, then once you know that, you can put her down when that happens. Basically you're teaching her one process at a time how to do that process in her bed.

How old is she now? I think if you're having to rock her for 15min after 1:45 A time to get her to sleep, maybe 2hr might be better. Is she getting upset going into the bedroom? Some babies struggle with transitions from place to place - taking a toy or something from pre-nap play to bed might help?

Sounds like your night is going better with earlier BT and longer night.

[ellieelmo]

Thank you for your reply.

hat's pretty classically OT from the short naps of the day. Its awful when its happening because you just want the night to be the NIGHT! You've made lots of progress and I think whilst this will be an issue again, it will likely settle once her day's a bit more reliable.

We've not seen this for the last 3 nights so hopefully that's a sign I'm making progress chipping away at the sleep debt.

She might just be associating it with sleep or maybe its nice and warm and comfy and she can hear your heartbeat and she's moving that little bit as you walk and she just falls asleep. Do you keep walking and try to resettle her?

Yes, always keep walking and patting to try and get her back off, today was the 5th day in a row that it hasn't worked she's just blinked awake, after 20mins yesterday and today and not gone back. But she hasn't cried shes just been quite happy looking around. Both yesterday and today she'd been really cranky by 4.15/4.30 and I've not, the last two days, fed her to nap. She's cried her really upset tired cry and then conked out on my shoulder (I'm doing this bounce rock think that works ish). Yesterday was a 50min nap and today 1.40mins on my shoulder. I haven't tried to put her down. Both nights I've woken her at 6pm to try and keep some sense of bed time. She's bathed at 6.30 and asleep both nights at 7.45 so even though its later than our routine she's clearly super tired (but not upset). So that's an A time of 1.45 which I've been trying to do. There is always some horrible crying at 1.45, 1.55, 2hrs. If I had the perfect A time would there be no crying?! Ideally how much crying should I tolerate before abandoning that nap? Given that I think there will always be some at the moment as I work to cancel the sleep debt.

How old is she now? I think if you're having to rock her for 15min after 1:45 A time to get her to sleep, maybe 2hr might be better. Is she getting upset going into the bedroom? Some babies struggle with transitions from place to place - taking a toy or something from pre-nap play to bed might help?

She's 16 weeks now (can't believe its taking so long to see any significant improvement ) She doesn't get upset going into the bedroom but as soon as i put her on my shoulder to sing/rock she gets cross. Like she knows I'm trying to get her off to sleep and doesn't want to go? Today she brought a rattle with her but didn't see any difference. I have found that standing near the door where the daylight comes in seems to work better for her then the corner where her basket is, works better in that she gets less upset. I don't do this for nighttime though.

This morning was a bit weird:

S 4.30 - 5.18am (she woke and was just kicking her legs but not the same angry was as she used to) When I looked in her basket she was wide awake and smiled at me. She genuinely looked bright eyed so I took this as the start of her day even though it was less than a 12 hr night (she went down at 7.45pm) I changed her and then fed her and we played quietly in bed with books.

S 7.18 - 7.54am (restarted rocking at 7.10, she pooped at 7am just as I was starting to rock). Woke calmly but then started to fuss so I tried to get her back down. There have been some mornings when after her poop she just needs another half hour on my shoulder to finish off the night. I had thought this was the same but i'd put her down this time.

S 9.17 - 10.10am in basket, started rocking at 9.01 as she was obviously still really tired and fussing. I had been going to aim for a 1.45 A time but brought it forward to 1.05 A time.

All a bit strange? What do you think is going on? Am I right to treat the 5am ish waking as still part of the night? I think *touch wood* that the early morning poop is not making her so uncomfortable any more because of the reduced feeding in the day?, and shes just awake and ready to start the day super early? I still have a problem winding her, I curse silently every time I hear a gulp of air go down and struggle so hard to get any burbs up at the moment. Still using the infacol.

Lordy. Target this week is to get one nap a day down in the basket. If the 9am
sleep is a nap, target achieved today, plus, even though they were erratic, 3 actual naps today! .

She's still startling herself awake when I do get her down for naps so I've put her in a swaddle zip up for night sleeps which has meant no startling awake (she can roll only from front to back so far). Perhaps I should use it for naps too? But it's warm here so I'd have to undress her down to just nappy before each nap otherwise she'll over heat. She is naturally a very warm baby who gets very cross in more than one layer.

She's now averaging 11+ hrs sleep in 24 which is 3hrs more than when I first posted so thank you for your help getting us here! Keeping everything  crossed I can add another few hours to that and consolidate it a bit more overnight. Baby steps.

[becj86]

If I had the perfect A time would there be no crying?!

Not necessarily - crying is her only means of communication and doesn't necessarily mean something dire is happening. She might not like the transition from play to sleep. She might be asking for help to fall asleep. Its very hard to know which is part of why EAS is helpful because you are catering for the major needs regularly.

She doesn't get upset going into the bedroom but as soon as i put her on my shoulder to sing/rock she gets cross. Like she knows I'm trying to get her off to sleep and doesn't want to go?

Or she doesn't like that position? Have you tried holding her a different way and singing? DS liked being held almost horizontal (almost like BF hold) and he then wasn't moving as much to lie down... I imagine she can see things more clearly where there is light and she might prefer that. I know I would!

S 4.30 - 5.18am (she woke and was just kicking her legs but not the same angry was as she used to) When I looked in her basket she was wide awake and smiled at me. She genuinely looked bright eyed so I took this as the start of her day even though it was less than a 12 hr night (she went down at 7.45pm) I changed her and then fed her and we played quietly in bed with books.

I think this was probably a night waking rather than a start to the day but that's me... I suspect getting those A times up to ~2hr may help with that.

Is she sleeping any longer naps? Have you tried hold through the jolts as yet? Might be worth considering for those short naps that you are getting.

Do you think the infacol is helping? I'm in two minds about it - it helps little bubbles join together and make bigger bubbles and supposedly makes them easier to get out. I sometimes think its easier to get little ones.

Target this week is to get one nap a day down in the basket. If the 9am sleep is a nap, target achieved today, plus, even though they were erratic, 3 actual naps today!

Good target - one step at a time.

She's still startling herself awake when I do get her down for naps so I've put her in a swaddle zip up for night sleeps which has meant no startling awake (she can roll only from front to back so far). Perhaps I should use it for naps too?

If its safe to use, yes you can use it for naps as well. Sorry, I'm not sure what those look like or how much they restrict movement.

[ellieelmo]

Gosh this morning has been horrific.
She woke at 5.15 after going down at 4.30am. Again bright eyed so I changed and fed her and she pooped. Tried to play but she was really fussy and rubbing her eyes so I tried to get her back down. A 1.35, S 50 in basket. When she woke at 7.40am we played a bit whilst I had breakfast, fed her and then played a bit more but she got cranky and no toy would settle her. So took her off to bedroom with a toy for WD. She's just finally fallen asleep in my shoulder. A 2.20. She cooed along with me singing for 15mins then started crying then fell asleep. I put her down and she was fine then she startled 4 times and awoke crying. I tried to sooth her but had to pick her up she was screeching herself hoarse. We did that for another hour until I've given up trying to get her down and am just letting her sleep on my shoulder.

I guess she was still tired at 5.15 and although happy, uncomfortable so couldn't keep sleeping. Then has just got progressively more tired until now and she's conked out. I haven't fed her since 8am so this likely won't be along nap. I feel terrible that she gets so upset but pursue sleep anyway because I know it's the only thing that she needs/wants. She's really fussy and whining if I try and do anything else with her (feed, play, put her down).

So tomorrow if she wakes at 5.15/5.30 I'll try and get her back down asap and see how that goes. Not hopeful for the rest of today given how bad this morning has been already. Or maybe because she's having a proper nap now it'll be easier the rest of the day. I'll aim for 2hrs A time.

I really am loosing my mind though. We go out but not to any groups because they always seem to clash with her either just fallen asleep on me or her planned A time will come to a close in the middle of a session. Gah.

[ellieelmo]

Well no, that wasn't a good start to the day. She slept for 1hr 20. I offered sleep at A 1.30, 1.40, 1.45, 2hrs and she finally went at A 2.20 for 20mins (in the sling). Then at A 1.40 for 1hr30 (nursed to sleep). Again, I woke her up as it was getting too close to BT.

Last night was a bit better but this morning has been bad.

BT 18.30
S 19.30 - 23.41
E 23.42 - 23.52
S 00.05 - 03.50
E 03.52 - 04.10
S 05.10 - 05.40 between 04.10 and 05.10 I burped thoroughly thinking I'd try and get everything up so she didn't wake every hour from 5am. She got progressively more awake with every attempt. I did get two big burps up and a few farts though so thought that would surely mean a longer sleep but no.

When she woke at 05.40 she was not hungry so I started rocking to her her back off. But she got hiccups so I put her on her tummy to help them pass and they finally did at about 06.15 so started rocking again and she was panting a sure sign she's now OT anyway I kept going, she brought up quite a bit of milk then fell asleep, I put her down and she woke right back up again happy. I left her there and took 10mins to calm down. 
E 07.20 - 07.30
I've just fed her and she's come off after burying her face in my chest, I've tried rocking and she's screaming so I'm letting her lie on the bed sucking her fingers whilst I decide what to do.

She's not demonstrated any discomfort from poo she's just really awake yet very tired. Yet won't rest. I tried a few different rocking positions last night but none worked really so I went back to on the shoulder as it's most comfortable for me.

I don't know what this will mean for today. With so much OT running in the background I'm pretty sure A 1.45 is going to be too long. If I just go by her signals she's always demonstrating she's tired. Yesterday she was always rubbing her eyes, always yawning and always fussing. I pretty much didn't put her down the whole day.