FTM and would like some sleep

[ZanesOTmom]

Hi everyone. I've a newbie on the site but have been lurking and doing some research on things I can work on for baby and I to get some sleep.

Some background: I'm a FTM and ds was a term baby with low birthweight. He's finally caught on. I've been following EASY loosely since he's 2 months but did not have a consistent routine/schedule. He's always slept on my arms but I transferred him to a dockatot beside me in bed in the nursery more than a month ago. He's been waking up 2-4 times nightly. I transferred his dockatot to his crib about a week ago and had been keeping track of EASY. It's been hellish since in terms of sleep. I decided to finally follow it more strictly yesterday and he's been able to stay up about 1h35m A time, working towards 1h45m. He is turning 4 months tomorrow.

Here's our routine from yesterday:
WU and E 7am (A 1.30) - formula
S 0830 (1.45) up after 24m, sh/pat then slept again for 10m then sh/pat for 55min sleep)

E 1015 - bf and formula (A 1.33 - very tired, had to push)
S 1148 (1.35) - woke up after WTS option 1 but went back to sleep with sh/pat

E 1323 - bf and formula (A 1.33 - pushed hard past 1.25)
S 1456 (1.35) - slept well with sh/pat

E 1644 - formula (A 1h43m - took a while to fall asleep)
CN 1827 (26m) then E- bf

Bath, WD (massage, story, prayer) at 1915 for 15min
CF - bf and formula, took a long time ~40m
Sh/pat til he finally slept at 2110 for 40m then again at 2200 for 40m. BF and formula-fed again, slept for 2.20 but he was in bed with me. Woke up again and slept from 0130-0530 with me, on boob. I was still sleep deprived (3h sleep from the night before) and just gave up to get some sleep. But I want to do better tonight now that I'm better rested.

I know babies sleeping through the night is not a myth as I've read lots of success stories. It just seems so out of reach for me right now and would appreciate some help. DS had been up minimum 4 times since I transferred him to the crib. It takes 8-15m to get him to nap and is getting better. However, night sleep is a different story. It could be anywhere from 30m to 2h from clusterfeed. He's slept through the night only once - 7h40m; he had 5x30m naps during the day and I don't want to replicate that day again. I tried PU/PD but he seemed to get more stimulated. I put him down but he cries so I carry him while sh/patting then put him down when very drowsy - this is the only one that's worked. Then sh/pat while he protests then eventually falls asleep. I also tried dreamfeed and it worked for the first night. The next 3 nights had been hell a waking up 4-5times after DF. I might try again once we get more settled into his routine. I've stopped swaddling when he was 2 weeks old or so although I wish I continued for better sleep routine's sake. I will know for next baby! I've tried swaddling him again the past several days but haven't really seen much difference. I'm only swaddling him for naps now, with both arms out.

Is it still restorative even though he opened his eyes 3-4 times in 1.5h nap? If he barely slept leading to 7am, should we stick to the activity time even though he's clearly tired? I'm guessing yes. I'm looking forward to any pointers you may have to help us. Thank you so much in advance.

[ZanesOTmom]

I've been doing lots of reading on the site. DS had only been sleeping 12-14 hours per DAY. Is this not normal?? The most I got him to sleep as a newborn was 16 hours I believe. ughhhh

[creations]

Hello, welcome to BW forums

Sounds like you've made a lot of changes and it's great you have LO going into his cot now.  All the changes are bound to disturb his sleep for a little while as he adjusts to the new routine and new place to sleep.

It looks like you are doing really well even though you still need to shush/pat through the naps.  Sleep training takes a while and is a gradual process.  As he learns to fall to sleep with less help he will also be more able to stay asleep with less help.  I would continue as you are for now, helping as needed with his transitions.

Try not to worry too much about the guidance sleep times by age - it is only guidance. I can remember looking at those times myself, many times, wondering how I was going to make my DS sleep that amount of time.  Some LOs just don't.

As your LO was lower birth weight you might need to stay with a 3hr E routine beyond 4 months, watch his cues, I see some of his E times are around 3hr 15 at the moment and that's fine if he is asleep or happy, just don't feel you have to force him to shift to 4hrly E at 4 months if he is not ready - again not all LOs can manage this.

Is the mixed feeding due to the lower birth weight or another reason?  Are you happy with the mixed feeding?

[ZanesOTmom]

Thanks so much for he response. The mixed feeding is actually for selfish reasons. I don't have much milk so I've been topping up lots.

I think LO can go for longer between E but I read that I should follow the transition from 3-hr to 4-he EASY on the dot... should I just forget it and go by DS's cues?

Also, last night was an even worse night. 5 NWs and an EW . I was kinda expecting this cos of his OT by missing his CN and long A time prior to BT but I feel like it's getting worse.

E 7am (A1.35)
S 8:35 (1h17m) and no interventions! (Yay)

E 1016 (A 1.29)
S 11:43 (25+10+37m) - slept right away but had 2 other

E 1324 (A 1.43)
S 1507 (43m total )

E 1604 (A 3h!!!!)
WD 1735 he was nodding off, really sleepy but refused to be put down. So we skipped CN

E 1806
WD then CF 1850h
S 1902 (2h38m) then 5 more wakings and each time it's hard to put him back to sleep 10m-1h sh/pat; fed on 2 of 5 wakings.
EW 0610

S 0650h today


Should I remove the CN altogether? I feel like I can longer in between feeds but really trying my best to follow the transition schedule. Also, I don't know why I'm getting so many NW. Any insights would be much appreciated as I get anxiety when BT approaches now.

[creations]

Being OT at BT can certainly add to the number of NWs and cause an EW too.  it looks like he went back to sleep at 6.50am though so that's good.

To drop the CN you really need to be closer to the 2hr A time and have the longer naps of 1.5-2hrs to get through the day, otherwise you will end up with a lot of extra time at the end of the day meaning either a long A time before BT or a very EBT (early bed time).  Looking at your times from yesterday, without the CN BT would ned to be at about 5.30pm, many people don't like to try BT that early although for some it pays off and LO sleeps well.
If you are considering dropping the CN I would suggest you really push those A times to 2hrs.

The mixed feeding is actually for selfish reasons. I don't have much milk so I've been topping up lots.

Would you like some BF support to help you increase your supply?  Mixed feeding can be a bit of a vicious cycle as the formula top ups mean your body is not getting the signal to produce more for baby's needs.  Your milk supply can drop as a result.

[ZanesOTmom]

Hi there. Thanks for the response. I've made some changes, thanks to your suggestions. we are now following the 3.75h EASY, transitioning to 4-hour. I just realized I've been counting A time from E and not from eyes open to eyes closed. DS had been having 1.75-2h A time after all. We're working on consistency and hopefully I can post some progress soon.

I just have few questions:

For EW, wouldn't that affect his A time and end up OT? I realize I still need to follow his routine so as not to reinforce EWs. Wouldn't his OT affect our day/night? Just wondering if I need to make changes when this happens.

DS had been waking up for feeds twice after CF. our pedia said he no longer requires feeding at night. But I realized that the NWs were from hunger (so stupid for me not to realize this sooner). Would he eventually let me know if these feeding need to be dropped or will I have to wean him off them?

Dream feeds - he wakes up at 10-1030pm and therefore becomes a NF instead. There had been nights where he didn't wake up but he won't suck on the bottle when I tried DF! He would wake up half an hour later for a NF. :-/ How are you able to give the bottle? Do you lift him up from the cot/crib to feed?

Wts - he wakes up at 28-45min mark and I've been trying WTS option 1. It has only worked once so far but I'm willing to continue. My question is, after I sh/pat and he goes back to sleep, can I do wts again on the second part of his nap?

I would really love for him to start sttn. I'm dedicating 2 weeks to staying home and helping him with sleep training. Really hoping all this would work.

About BF, I've seen at least 4 LCs and was on domperidone and herbs in the first two months. I'm happy with where we're at, but thank you for the offer of supports.

[creations]

For EW, wouldn't that affect his A time and end up OT? I realize I still need to follow his routine so as not to reinforce EWs. Wouldn't his OT affect our day/night? Just wondering if I need to make changes when this happens.

If there is an EW but you eventually get him back off to sleep I'd just count WU as the last time he wakes up and do a full A time from there. yes there can be a little OT if LOs wake a lot earlier than they should but usually you need to get the nap at a reasonable time so that you do not encourage the EW to continue.  Lots of OT can effect day and night sleep but OT also helps to get into a suitable routine too so try not to be overly worried about it - often when we worry too much about OT we can end up perpetuating the trickier parts of the routine such as EW or UT naps which are equally as unhelpful.

DS had been waking up for feeds twice after CF. our pedia said he no longer requires feeding at night. But I realized that the NWs were from hunger (so stupid for me not to realize this sooner). Would he eventually let me know if these feeding need to be dropped or will I have to wean him off them?

Sorry but I am sure your LO is only 4 months, I do not know of any LO who does not need a feed at night at this age.
NFs for formula fed babies often drop earlier than BF babies (not always) but even formula fed babies you'd expect to have a NF or a DF (or even both) until 8 months. Yes some LOs might independently just stop waking for a night feed younger than this and if they are eating well in the day and gaining weight there would be no reason to worry but on the whole you would be looking at night feeds for several months yet.
Once solids are well established you might see LO less interested in either night or day feeds, this would be an indicator that night feeds can be weaned. We can give you support with this when the time comes.  Sometimes LOs do not reduce any of their milk feeds and might need some encouragement to reduce the night feeds and take in more calories during the day instead. Certainly if NFs were continuing beyond 8 months but solids were not being taken or good milk feeds weren't taken in the day then I'd probably suggest looking at weaning NFs to move calorie intake to day time.  But not at 4 months, more like 8 -12 months.

Back shortly to answer your other questions

[creations]

Dream feeds - he wakes up at 10-1030pm and therefore becomes a NF instead. There had been nights where he didn't wake up but he won't suck on the bottle when I tried DF! He would wake up half an hour later for a NF. :-/ How are you able to give the bottle? Do you lift him up from the cot/crib to feed?

There's some info here about how to give the DF
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=54662.msg382717#msg382717
You might try 15-30 mins earlier or later than you've been doing to see if you catch him in a different part of the sleep cycle when he is more willing to take the feed.  or he could be like mine and just refuse to have anything put in his mouth. Mine always had a feed at around10-10.30 and always awake for it.

Wts - he wakes up at 28-45min mark and I've been trying WTS option 1. It has only worked once so far but I'm willing to continue. My question is, after I sh/pat and he goes back to sleep, can I do wts again on the second part of his nap?

Yes you can use it several times in one nap if needed.

hope this helps

[ZanesOTmom]

Thank you so much. Hoping to report back soon with a success story! 🙏🏽

[ZanesOTmom]

One more thing, about feeds. He takes 4-5oz per feed and now that we're feeding every 4 hours, his intake is less, moving from every 3-3.5hrs. No matter how much we push, he won't finish his 6oz bottle. it's a bad idea to feed before naps, is it? I noticed he didn't gain much weight the past 2 weeks but his doc isn't concerned as he's still gained from the previous month...

[ZanesOTmom]

I'm happy to report things have much improved. We've been on 4-hour easy, textbook but I have some questions:

EW could be 0600 to 0645 (I leave him to his crib although sometimes he starts to cry)
E 0700 - so hard to feed him, will take up to an hour when bottle had expired (A 2h not counting from EW)
S 0900 (am naps have improved and sometimes he does not wake for at lease 1.5h; sh/pat back to sleep always until 11am)

E 11-1130 (feedings had been hard lately and I need to push him to eat )
A until S
S 1300 (always 30m+10m+1h - rocking/shpat but always put to crib drowsy)

E 1500
A until S
CN 1700 (30min)

(E removed as he won't eat)
A until bath at 1815-1830, story, prayers
E 1830-1845
Crib by 1915-1930 but he won't sleep until 8pm the earliest.

DF 2230-2300

He wakes around 2:30am and then 4:30am. I was feeding him both times because his intake had dropped. But I realize I need to drop one of the NF as both wakings, he coos and talks, not really upset but he would eat if fed. Also, I'm hoping it'll make him more hungry for 0700 feed. Not sure if this is a good idea though considering his daily intake...

Also, to address the EW and pm nap, should I extend his A time to slightly more than 2h? He's almost 4.5mos. Would this possibly help the NW, EW and pm nap? Thanks so much.

[creations]

I think I'd probably drop one of the NFs if he seems relatively happy. A LO who is hungry will let you know it, even if you manage to resettle without a feed they will wake again 10-20 min later again crying for food so if this happens then you need to feed but otherwise I think the DF plus one NF is likely okay and the milk intake in the day should be a bit easier.
When he wakes in the morning and from nap you could try not feeding for say 30 mins, some LOs don't like to eat right away.  This way the feed might be taken more readily and your formula won't expire.

You could try a little  more than 2hrs A time, yes. Some LOs do go over the guidance times. Maybe try 2hr 10 or 2hr 15 and see how it goes.
I would perhaps hold off on the BT routine a little longer too if he is taking 45 min or more to go to sleep.  How about start later with the aim of being asleep at 8pm but with less resistance?

Glad to hear things have improved for you

[ZanesOTmom]

HI there. Thanks so much for all the supports.
With regards to your suggestion of pushing bedtime to later, say 8pm, did you mean to start the day later too? DS woke up at 8am when I read your response so I thought, perfect! We can move the whole day. And we've been following that since with A time pushed for 5-10mins whenever I'm able to. However, he had always been awake between 6-7am. As soon as I stop shpatting, he's wakes up and wide awake again. We do this til it's 8am WU, or close to at least. Bedtime routine starts 6:45-7:15pm. He's in bed by 8pm. Problem is, he doesn't sleep til 9pm now! 😳

Should I go back to 7am WU as that's his usual WU time? But how do I do EASY so he goes to bed later? I've been following the 4-hour EASY... 

Other than the early waking and late bedtime, he's been consistently waking up for 2 feeds at night. He still needs help transitioning during naps but overall, I'm very happy of his routine, and I think so is the LO. thanks again.

[creations]

No I did not mean for the morning WU to move to 8am.  As you are trying now to move it to 8am I think you are seeing BT resistance until 9pm.  Really all that has happened is you moved the whole day rather than reduce the expected night length.
Not all LOs can do a full 12 hr night. Some can but even so they sometimes need more or less depending if their routine is changing.  Others can do 11hr night or even 10.5 hr night and trying to get more is pretty much a waste of energy.

I would just get him up at 7am.  If he wakes a bit earlier than 7am and you want to keep him in bed until 7am that's fine, support him, but I wouldn't be spending an entire hour trying to shush/pat back to sleep when it is a relatively reasonable WU time.  if you are spending an hour every day then the routine probably needs changing.

9pm BT however I consider too late.  Previously you were putting down at 7.15pm and he was taking 45+ min to go to sleep.  personally I find that too long really - what I mean is it would drive me a little bit nuts. Sometimes LOs resist BT because they are not sleepy enough so starting a bit later means they take less time to go to sleep, the idea was not to prolong BT to but reduce the overall time spent getting him to sleep.  it looks like now you have 2hrs of BT - you must have the patience of a saint!

Could you post your recent EAS times please showing how long it takes to settle for naps, what times he wakes mid nap etc.  Are you using W2S at every nap?  Have you tried holding off for a day to see what happens?

[ZanesOTmom]

I'm sorry I haven't been responsive. It's been hectic the last 2 weeks and he'll the last few days. We moved houses this week and the week prior, DS, DH and I had the cold while busy packing. It's been horrendous. The good news is that, since we moved, DS has dropped 1 NF. The only thing consistent the past week is our WU time and first nap even though the EW is still there (5:30-6:15).

WU 0700
E 0730 (A 2-2.15)
S 0900-0915 (30m + 1-1.30) - WTS is still being done and it's hit and miss. Successful ~30% of the time

E 11-1130 (A 2-2.15)
S 13-1330 (1.30 - 2h total) shushpat still after WTS

E ~1530h (A ~2-2.15)
CN 1700-1730h  depending time he woke up from nap, as per cues

Feed after he wakes from CN
Bath time and story an hour after he wakes from CN
CF before BT, bed by 1945. He doesn't sleep til 8-8:15pm
NF between 0130-0330h.


Now the above has been the ideal. Between the new environment, cough and congestion, things would change i the afternoon/evening and i follow his lead mostly. The past 2 days had been a nightmare. Yesterday, he got his meningitis (optional) shot AND learned how to roll over at night! I would shpat him to sleep but once I stop, he would roll over then cry. Repeat until I got fed up at about midnight. I APOP'd and let him sleep with me in bed. He woke up cranky and would not go back to sleep. Everytime I dropped him he would cry. Or roll then cry. I gave him acetaminophen as he seems a bit warm perhaps from the shot, he slept in the arms on the sofa. We both got maybe 4 hours of sleep in total. He's currently on his am nap and he woke at 30min Mark as usual - WTS didn't work. Took a while to get him back to sleep but at least he's napping and not trying to roll over.

I'm going out of my mind. It feels like we've made a leap but took several steps backwards. I'm hoping it's the new environment and he will adjust very soon. Also, I really hope he was cranky and kept rolling over last night because of the shot and this won't be a nightly occurrence now that he's learned to roll over. Please tell me it won't be. I am going out of my mind. The house is a mess, I'm tired and lacking sleep, feeling stressed that DH is doing everything in the house... I don't know anymore. 😫