Author Topic: Why does her sleep SUCK between 2-5am??  (Read 9475 times)

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Offline Sarah O

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Why does her sleep SUCK between 2-5am??
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2006, 12:40:56 pm »
Sarah Brown - my DS has only received cereal so far, and he has barely even received that, since I only manage to smear it on his lips.  :)  So I gave up yesterday for now, thinking that maybe the bit that made it into his mouth has caused him digestive issues and he's not ready.  So last night's escapades could not have been caused by solids since he's not had any for 24 hours or more.  So about last night....he was up once at 1am, then 3:20 - 5:50.  I finally moved him downstairs to our P&P so that he wouldn't disturb his twin.   So I don't know if the move got him to sleep or if he ran out of steam or if he just felt "better" because it was past the 2-5 horror timeslot.

Let's all keep each other posted, k?  I'm going to try the advice given re: sleeping on tummy.  It kinda makes me feel better to have a plan!  :)

Sarah O
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Offline Mommy in Moose Jaw

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Why does her sleep SUCK between 2-5am??
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2006, 15:15:35 pm »
That point about cereal sounds like my dd.  She won't let it past her lips -- I have tried every cople of weeks for a while now.  For a while the only thing she would eat was 'real' mashed bananas.  In talking to a few other moms, several have said their lo's wouldn't go for cereal either.  I found she really only likes 'real' food and sometime won't even go for baby food from a jar.  I think it's just a food preference.  Have you tasted that rice cereal?? I'm surprised any baby eats it :lol:

Just thought I'd let you know how last night went:  DD made her first peep at 1:37am again (eery) and only needed help at about 1:50am.  Prior to that I could hear her trying to go to sleep  -- yawning, sucking her lips, mantra singing, etc.  When I went to her she tried to grin at me and engage me but whenever I respond at night I never look her in the eye or talk and go right to sh/pat -- I found talking woke her up more.  So I went to her and stayed there until deep sleep.  It took 10-15min for her eyes to close but she was still as stone and then light sleep took more like 30 min as she re-woke once and had to start all over again.  Once in deep sleep (2:42am) she slept the rest of the night until 8:30am.  So she was awake for about 45 min total.  The only problem with that is that once I have been up for so long I can't go back to sleep and it was nearly 6am before I fell asleep again, hence sleeping clear through to 8:30am!  Today I am going to try a little more activity with her but keep up the same response at night and hope it continues to improve.

One incidental (maybe not so incidental) is that today she broke out in spots.  I'm presuming chicken pox as big bro started spots on Christmas Day (he's 6 years old).  I'm hoping this is going to be very mild but am watching her like a hawk.


Offline magicbelly

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5.5 mth just the same as you all.
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2006, 01:05:45 am »
good greif alright, i thought i was the only one with this issue! i just discovered tracey's book and this website last week and it seems i have posted my questions about this very same issue in the wrong area (breastfeeding). i must conclude that this is a developmental stage and must be normal. i just check in with my friends with babies 8 months and they said they went through exactly the same issues at this age.

my daughter is still only bf, swaddled with one arm out and sleeps on her back. She started waking in the past 3 wks (normally slept through). i started the dreamfeed a few nights ago with no change. she takes a full feed at 4am. i refuse to feed before this but felt at my wits end about what to do. theorectically she should be able to sleep through.

my friends both suggested if i continue the dream feed to push the 4am feed later. so shh/pat when she wakes in the night and set a new rule no feed before 5am for example then slowely push later and later. they found this to work and their kids now sleep approx 7pm-7am. i must note it took them approx 5 days of sleepless nights to get into the new schedule but said it was worth it. i suppose if i dont dreamfeed it is reasonable she is hungry at 4am but otherwise she has 6 feeds a day which she souldn't need.

another point is my bub is so distracted during the day feeds because she wants to explore everything i thought perhaps she wasnt getting enough but she still lasts 4hrs between feeds so maybe it is habit.

anyway my bub has been waking numerous times through the night like the rest of you, i've done the shh/pat and got it down to only the 4am wake-up and will work on this tonight.

your suggestions are welcome but i say it must be a stage we have to perservere with or another learnt habit from us visiting the room more often or both.

thank goodness i have discovered the 5.5mth mums i was about to go crazy.

Offline Sarah O

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Why does her sleep SUCK between 2-5am??
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2006, 12:10:08 pm »
Thought I'd post what last night was like here...

For DD, I stopped swaddling and introduced a "luvvie" (very soft blanket with silky lining) for her to hold.  She had a much better night, waking only once and with soother and a quick pat was back to sleep.

For DS (the real problem!), I considered trying tummy sleep but he still needs the swaddle and I would think that putting a swaddled baby on their tummy is dangerous.  So, instead I gave him a luvvie as well, helped him find it to stroke, seemed to be a comfort (?).  Also, I made sure he got his full doses of Zantac yesterday (reflux) and that he had lots of activity.  He had a better night, but I would love to know why!!  He woke at 3:50am and needed me to turn him on his side and help him find his luvvie and then just sort of muttered and groaned in light sleep until he insisted on being up (sister too!) at 6.

Oh, the only other thing I can think of is that his nasty bum rash was cleared up as of yesterday so that might be a factor too??

Anyway, that's my update.  I'm just grateful to have had a few hours sleep in a row.

Looking forward to our continued collaboration on this problem!!

Sarah
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Offline Mommy in Moose Jaw

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Why does her sleep SUCK between 2-5am??
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2006, 15:31:46 pm »
That's great.  I'm glad it was a better night.  Me on the other hand....not so good :(   Without a doubt one of the toughest nights so far.  I'm going to chalk it up the the chicken pox and pray things improve as dd gets over the illness.

Yesterday, I tried some extra activity with her.  She's not showing any outward signs of illness other than the spots and being a little irritable.  So, the day went well, but last night!!  Oh my, I am SO confused!  This is how things went:

Since waking up late yesterday (8:30am), she ended up skipping late afternoon catnap and I put her to bed a little earlier -- had her last bf at 6:30 and she was asleep by 7:10.  I tried to have her take the nap for 30 min but just cooed and played in crib and obviously just didn't need it. Total awake time for the day was normal (about 8.5 hours).  After taking extra help settling for bedtime (not the norm), she woke up at 10:20pm RAVENOUS so I gave her df then even though I normallly wouldn't do it until 11:00pm.  She has never woken early for that either.  Then, she woke at her usual 1:30ish and tried hard for 30 min to put herself back to sleep but needed help around 2:05.  Looked like she'd settle but then kept snapping back awake until was finallly pitching fit by 3:00 and acting hungry.  I couldn't believe that was it as have not had to feed her at that time for 2 months, but finally fed at 3:30 and she took a full feed.  She fell asleep again by 4:10 with help (which she doesn't usually need after a feed) and woke again at 6:15 hollering for another feed.  She took ANOTHER full feed and zonked back out and is just waking now at 9:15am cooing in her crib.

I AM SO CONFUSED!!!  :?  :?  :?   Now I just don't know what to do.  Since she was so hungry and ate really well yesterday and still needed more at night, I think it must be growth spurt thrown in the mix too.  so i'll try to increase my supply today again.  My big concern though is the sleeping late following her wakeful nights.  I should probably still be getting her up at 7:00am I suspect as I am worried she is setting a body clock pattern that will be tough to change of being wakeful at night and sleeping in the morning.  I just have such a hard time doing that as I am so exhausted and sleep right through as well.

Does anyone have any thoughts on that?


Offline sarah brown

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Why does her sleep SUCK between 2-5am??
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2006, 20:25:06 pm »
Hi Ccjay Hi I don't know if I can offer much advice as I'm in the same boat re night waking however it may be worth offering the DF again just to see if it helps, out of interest have you started Tracey's programme with regards to shush/pat and PU/PD and if so does this not settle him at night?

Majic belly Hi I have had the same feeding probs with Ollie and when I was on the eating forum read a post explaining how this was common in spirited babies which my LO is I don't know if this sounds familiar but if there's noise. distraction i.e other people in room or sometimes even if I look at him the wrong way or speak when he's taking his bottle he kicks off. I even stopped BF at 12 weeks cause I was convinced his fussing was my lack of milk.

Everyone else no changes to report really except the last 3 nights ollie has only woke twice, between 1.30 and 2.30 when he wakes for his dummy and settles really quick (2 mins) then between 3.00 and 5.00 where it takes about 10 mins of pat/shush so hopefully were moving in the right direction :)

Speak soon, Sarah

P.s if your in the USA has the second series of lost started up again after the christmas break we've been downloading it but only up to episode 9!!!
Mum to Amy Rose and Ollie

Offline mthyne

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Why does her sleep SUCK between 2-5am??
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2006, 22:18:39 pm »
Sarah Brown

As far as I can see, yes, it would be ok to put lo on front.  We started before ds could roll, but could hold his head up well.  We've never had an issue.  I just make sure that there are no loose blankets around him.  He has a lovey, but it is crocheted with big holes, so I don't worry.  An extra plus, if your lo uses a pacifier, being on tummy seems to help keep it in their mouth!  Like I said, he just seems to relax more because he can't overstimulate himself (he loves to put his feet in his mouth when he's on his back!).  So we've gone from 2-5 night wakings down to an occassional 1.  I can deal with that!

As far as Lost goes, I think the season is starting this week or next week.

Melissa
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Offline mthyne

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Why does her sleep SUCK between 2-5am??
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2006, 22:35:30 pm »
MagicBelly
When i first did the df it seemed to do no good.  However, I would stick with it!  My dh and I had a pow-wow about ds's sleeping habits a few weeks ago.  He was up and down all night--it was like having a newborn!  So this is what we decided.  We know he can go at least 8 hours without a feed (has gone 10 on some occassions), so his feeding times at night are now up to us.  Therefore, we do solids at 5/5:30 (and he hates plain rice cereal too--we mix it with fruits and veggies), bottle at 6:30/7, bed at 8, df at 10:30, and no feeding until at least 5:30am (he normally goes until 6/6:30).  His morning wake-up is between 8-8:30.  It took about a week, but like I mentioned before, we have maybe 1 wake-up that is quickly solved with his lovie and pacifier (I'm in the room about 30 seconds).  We do tummy sleeping too, which I know some aren't crazy about.  I guess my dh made me realize at this stage our lo's start figuring things out (like how to manipulate mommy!), and I don't have the heart for CIO, but I need my sleep!  A happy mommy is a happy household!
Melissa
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Offline Sarah O

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Why does her sleep SUCK between 2-5am??
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2006, 11:53:37 am »
YAHOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't want to jinx things and I definitely don't want to make you all feel bad but last night both my babies SLEPT STRAIGHT FROM 6:45pm - 6am!!!

Now if I just knew WHY??  Maybe they somehow knew that if they didn't let mummy finally get some sleep it would be a much less pleasant world for them, LOL!

Anyway, I hope that you all read this as encouraging...I don't want to boast just wanted to share some positive news instead of my usual griping.

I really hope you have a night like this one tonight!  (and I hope I have another one!)

Sarah :)
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Offline mothergloose

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Why does her sleep SUCK between 2-5am??
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2006, 12:47:03 pm »
Sarah O - congratulations and here's to another night straight through for the bubs!  :D  (I'm a frat twin myself - I get the "you can imagine what it was like with you twins!" from my mum and we were numbers 5 & 6 of the kids!!!  Anyway I digress...)

Mommy in Moose Jaw - usually ds is down for the night by 8-8.30pm with little drama.  But lately, it's been happening more frequently with struggles.  Tonight was about 1.5hrs - it's SOOO frustrating because he was ready for sleep and almost dropped off into a good sleep several times in the first few minutes.  Eventually I tried feeding him again and he seemed to go down after a few minutes.

I'm going to try the df tonight (in about 10 mins) and then try to shorten the feeding time gradually at the early morning IF ds wakes then (fingers crossed!).

What does everyone do when being out (or some external commitment) is going to affect the routine?

Also until what age is the dummy (pacifier) not considered a prop?!  Generally, ds needs the sucking motion to soothe for sleep and since I don't feed to sleep.... I probably should post this in a different area but you all seem pretty clued in  :D
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Offline sarah brown

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Why does her sleep SUCK between 2-5am??
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2006, 22:27:52 pm »
Hi Sarah o I'm so pleased for you I've just cheered my husband thinks I'm crazy!! so what he has Manchester United I have the BW website.

My little man achieved something for the first time last night aswell, he did wake first at 3.30 for 5 mins then at 5.45, I went in tried pat shush but this seemed to annoy him and he was fussing and arching his back so I admitted defeat and went to get my dressing gown to go down and tell my DH and when I went back in his room he had settled himself back down, this is the first time since being tiny fingers (and toes) crossed this is a sign of things to come.  :D

Happy sleeping through..by the way ws it both you LO's that would wake or just one

Sarah
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Offline CCJay

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Why does her sleep SUCK between 2-5am??
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2006, 22:41:54 pm »
Yes i did try the df again last wk but he pursed his lips and refused it. I considered trying it again the last 2 nights because he only took 2 full bottles and refused the rest. But i decided to see how it went. I'm nearly afraid to say it incase i jinx myself but Sun night he went down at 8.30 and only woke at 11 when i did sh/pat and he slept through to 7.20. Last night he went down at 8.10 and didn't stir til 6.10.Fingers crossed! I did use pu/pd initially to get him used to going to sleep on his own. Now i find it doesn't work so good so i try to avoid having to pick him up. DS just woke up. Husband just did sh/pat and he's gone off again. Maybe i spoke too soon!!

Offline magicbelly

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Why does her sleep SUCK between 2-5am??
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2006, 09:02:08 am »
Hi all
I finally got my daughter down for the night (37mins) the evenings are challenging. how do babies know this difference between day sleeps and bedtime?
Before i go on you must all download and read this sleep interview with Tracey(very long) . it answers so many of our questions. she says there is a developmental growth stage around 5 months and talks in depth about pu/pd and nightwaking.

so i started the df 3 nights ago and it is making a world of difference (thanks Sarah for encouraging me to perservere). Chloe slept through 1st night, woke 4am the second night taking 30min to get her down but no feed, slept through third night. i know now she can go 7pm-7am with 10pm df.

if she gets her full daytime sleeps 1.5-2hr x2 and catnap 45-1hr i have a great day and a happy baby. if i cant resettle a 45min daysleep it throws the rest of the day unless she catches up - sleep definately promotes sleep.

Chloe is a VERY firey spirited baby who likes to get her own way so enforcing this routine helps me to help her. found her sleeping on her tummy for the first time ever this morning.

still only early days though. tracey also suggests to top up day feeds to make up for the feeds they want overnight - basically stick your boob/bottle in their mouth whenever you get the chance. i tried this yesterday and it threw the entire day routine out, by the afternoon she was feeding every 2 hrs so i wont do this again. bubs not on solids yet so i dont have digestive problems to deal with. i may be in for a new challenge in two weeks.

off the topic, Sarah O, i admire you for handling double the trouble. i too am a frat. twin and we have twins every generation in our family tree except mine so far. my brother and sister have finished having kids and Chloe is my first child so if i dont have twins i break generations of tradition (this doesnt matter of course). anyway i was interested in your history for a bit of fun. did you suspect twins?

Keep perservering everyone, consistencey is the key.

Offline travis's mum

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Why does her sleep SUCK between 2-5am??
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2006, 10:07:35 am »
Hi ladies I was just coming to this room because we been having some awful nights and I saw this post and again 'I couldn't believe my eyes'  :shock:  :shock:  :shock: Guess what my DS is 5.5 moths too and wouldn't you believe it is doing the same thing.

I'll try give you a brief run down, he never slept through from birth always feeding a minimum every 4hrs. I introduced solids and he started sleeping through, DH and I have been in heven for the last week or so.  Now we used to battle with 45min naps but he started to grow out of that too. Still does it if he is very over tired, or we're out and about,or doesn't have enough awake time (this can be tricky to judge as he seems to be moaning/whiging from the moment he wakes to the moment he sleeps, I think it's the teething) I tend to watch the clock and try to set a minimum of awake time then any time after that put him down.

He has never had a problem going back to sleep after he wakes (until now :roll: ) I'm sure in my case it's not a growth spurt (yet) as when I offer him the bottle he just cooe's and smiles and plays with the teat with his tounge. I don't know if it's a coincidence but it started monday night and monday morning he had his last set of jabs (but he seemed to have no side effects i.e no temperature or loss of appetite.  Another thing is that he got two bottom teath 4 days ago.

Butboth me and DH think it might be what Kate suggested that he needs more stimulating awake time, because he seems really healthy his appetite is good but is normal (he's not hungry at night) He just seems as bright as a button between 12-4am. The poor thing can't understand that it's still bed time and is wide awake ready to go. :roll:

It's good to know this is a developmental thing as there are sooo many babies going through it at the same age. I hope it sorts itself out soon  :wink: I'm going to try more stimulating activity time maybe go out for a bit in the afternoon (even though it's feezing outside. And maybe an extended bathtime. I'm going to buy one of those bath seats/chairs and some floaty toys and see if we have any change. Fingers crossed  :wink:

I'll keep you all posted and let you know how tonight goes.

Offline magicbelly

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Why does her sleep SUCK between 2-5am??
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2006, 10:40:37 am »
i wanted to post a few relevant quotes from Tracey's sleep interview. you really need to read it to put this in perspective. Sorry these snipets are long too:

1. Q:  So there are a lot of things changing in this age range (4-5 months).

T:  Yes.  And sometimes you’ll have something else that’s very common – “My baby has been sleeping through the night, and now she’s started waking again.”  I guarantee that probably started at a growth spurt, and they didn’t recognize it, so they didn’t up the calories during the day.

And the other thing is, parents will say is “He’s four months old, and he’s started waking, and he’s drooling a lot – has he started teething?”  No, he’s not teething, except in very rare cases, his saliva glands have just matured.  Because drooling has nothing to do with teething.

2.Q:  So if night wakings are starting again, and it’s clearly hunger, you would feed him that night, but the very next day start trying to increase the calories?

T:  Yes, get the extra calories in wherever you can.  Don’t even think about the clock.  So if they get up at 7 and feed, you give them a couple more ounces at, say, 9.   Whatever you fed them in the night you’ve got to make up the next day – let’s say he woke up at 2am and gulped down 8 ounces.  Then you’ve got to get 8 extra ounces in the next day.  It doesn’t mean in one bottle or feed.  It may mean you’ve got to add an ounce to every bottle/feed they’re having in the day.  Say they’re having 4 feeds/bottles, that’s an extra 4 ounces.  Then, say after an hour that they’ve fed, you give them an ounce.  And then another hour later, you give them another ounce.  And then it’s not until about the third day that they’ll start to adjust during the day so they can take all the extra they need at regular feed times.  But if they’ve been sleeping through the night, and suddenly they start waking, I could put money on it that it’s hunger, and it’s calories.

3. Q:  So let’s take the example of a baby who wakes early from a nap happy.  Sometimes they’ll wake early and are clearly still tired.  Maybe something has interfered – he’s had a big poop, or is hungry earlier because he didn’t eat well the feed before, or something like that.  So you’d work on getting him back to sleep, or if hungry feed and do the things we talked about earlier.  But when they wake up happy, and they know how to self-soothe, I’m assuming there’s no real point to try to do the pu/pd.

T:  Right!  If they’re happy – the baby who wakes up happy has clearly, somewhere along the line, had a good nap.  So leave him be.  The point I would make here is, you don’t need to rush in just because their eyes are open and they’re babbling.  Don’t break that – because if you start to break that, then they don’t learn to be in their own space.  Then you have a child that soon learns that mum rushes in as soon as I make a sound.  Well, in that case they don’t learn, they never get used to being on their own.  So when mum does want them to be on their own, it’s so strange to them – because you’ve always rushed in – that they start to cry when they’re left.  And those children have a hard time at the age where they go through separation anxiety.  Because they’ve never been left, and they don’t know what it is to – I have a lot of babies who regularly wake between 4 and 5 in the morning, but go back to sleep.  Leave them alone – if they’re fine, then leave them alone.  Until they call you, they’ll do that fussy, coughing cry, e-heh, e-heh, e-heh, “where are you?”  And when you come in, they’re happy, all smiley again.  If they’ve been happy in their space, and then they start to cry, it’s because they want you.  But if they’re babbling and cooing, and talking to their “friends” in the crib, leave them be!

4. Q:  dreamfeeding....And sometimes will even be smiling, engaging you, so how to phase it out…say you have a 6 month old and are wondering how long to continue the dream feed.

T:  You know what you do, you really don’t with breastfeeding start to phase that dream feed out until about 8 months.  Because they’ll have another major growth spurt before then.  The one thing you don’t do with dream feeding and breastfeeding is you don’t start feeding them again in the night.  Because I guarantee they’ll start eating less in the day and start eating in the night if you let that get re-established.

Q:  So why is it they like to go back to eating more in the night than in the day?

T:  It’s more relaxing and they don’t have the distractions – the thing is, at this age, with all they can start to do now, they want to spend less time to eat, less time to sit and be still – that’s pretty boring!  That’s why a lot of children will actually lose weight at this age.

Q:  And that’s where you were saying earlier to just get the calories, don’t worry about the clock and the schedule, just get the calories in.

T:  That’s right, just grab ‘em any time, and pop ‘em on the boob, as long as it’s in the day, when that sunshine is out, and not the moon penny!
 

5.Q:  Now what about the other end – starting the dream feed?  What about parents who say they’ve tried it, but it didn’t work?

T:  Let’s say you’re feeding them at 7 or 8.  And they’re waking up at 2 or 3.  If you give them a dream feed – here are the two scenarios:  One is if they take a big dream feed, and they still wake up at 2.  Well, in that case, at least you know it’s not calories causing them to wake.  The other scenario is if they won’t wake enough to feed.  In that case, take it an hour later, so if you’re doing it at 10pm, then try it at 11pm.

Now if they’re always waking at 2am, then you’ll have to break it, and give it to them at 1am.  Set your alarm for 1am, so you pre-empt it.  Then bring it back to 12, then 11.

Q:  Is it important, if you want to try the dream feed, to keep it up if you don’t see results right away?

T:  Yes...And in that 3-6 month range, they should start to be physically asleep from 7 to 7, with a dream feed at around 10 or 11.