Why does her sleep SUCK between 2-5am??

[Mommy in Moose Jaw]

I hope someone can offer some insight or help with this one...

My dd (5.5 months) has basically got a good, predictable EASY schedule.  We introduced solids a couple of weeks ago (loves bananas) which overall has helped regulate her day and night sleep pattern.  I've been backwards and forwards over her routine and can't come up with an answer to this:  At some point in the night, usually between 2-5 am,  dd will wake up and have trouble getting back into deep sleep.  I leave the little fusses and grunts and only go to her when she starts to get upset and then she settles easily with sh/pat.  The problem is that even if I stay until she is in deep sleep, or if I leave her to go into deep sleep herself, she repeats this wake up every hour (or less) until 5am at which point she is ravenous and takes a full feed.  She doesn't do this every night and often the worse nights she is better after a big toot (or she wakes up with a big toot).  Is this just mostly a gas issue as it occurs about 3-4 hours after her DF or is this sounding like a feeding schedule wake-up and she is hungry at the 4-hour mark?  She is BF and I have increased my supply during the day (still 4 /4 EASY with solids 3x as supplement 1-2 hours after bf) and can't think of an answer to this.  The problem is that if she is basically awake for 2+ hours at night, she sleeps well past the normal 7am wake up to make up for the lost sleep, which sort of skews the routine the next day.

Any advice or insight??

[Sarah O]

Hi there!

Would just like to say that your post is exactly like what I'm going through and would be interested to see some other replies.  Feel free to PM me and we can compare notes!

Best of luck to you!

Sarah

[sarah brown]

Hi  I'm going through the same too with my 5.5 mth DS and it has been every night for over a week now, some nights he wakes at 2.30 ish and again at 5.00 is is fairly easy to settle but last night at 5.00 he just wouldn't settle and I ended up offering a feed of which he took 4 oz (I've not had to night feed for about 10 weeks).  I thought maybe it's a growth spurt thing but I struggle to get anymore into Ollie in the day.  He is on 8 oz feeds which are hit and miss (sometimes just take 6oz) I am also introducing weening with a rusk am and puree pm after the bottle. He always takes 8 oz on the DF!!

I don't know about you but I feel that pat/shush is becoming a prop as he just won't settle without that or me stroking his head :?

Would also welcome any ideas
Thanks Sarah

[GabrielleD]

I can't believe this. My 5.5 month DS is going through the exact same thing!!! Is this something that's normal for 5.5 month-olds?? No gas problems with DS, he just keeps waking between 2 and 5 repeatedly. He goes back to sleep with his paci, but wakes again. We will start weaning him from his paci next weekend. Any suggestions for good earplugs?! :wink:
Seriously, I would love to know why this is happening. Is it related to DS's paci addiction (any 12-step programs for this? ) or is it a developmental thing?

[Mommy in Moose Jaw]

First let me say I'm glad I'm not in this boat alone -- even though it's a boat I'd rather not be in!

I too have wondered about the sh/pat being being a prop, but sometimes dd will settle on her own at that hour.  I have noticed the times she does not settle is when she has gas at the same time.  Now what comes first, I'm not sure -- gas wakes her up or she wakes up and realizes she has gas.  Either way, it makes it tougher for her to settle.  That is a matter of self-soothing also though isn't it?  Being able to go back to sleep following a little gas?  I do know that settling her at night takes far longer than any other bedtime or naptime and she seems to need me there until deep sleep at that time.  I'm not sure how to approach that.  When we first started EASY, I had to stay with her until deep sleep for all sleep times and that gradually got better, so logic would predict this will eventually get better with the same response also??

I realize this may seem rambling but maybe it will strike a cord with you guys also and we can start to make some sense or come up with a plan.

One thing I keep thinking of is something that worked with my ds (he's now 6 years old).  His worst point of sleep was 5 months old (this must be a tough age) and we introduced sleep training at that point, although differently.  I took a modified Ferber approach and added 15 minutes per night before intervening.  Meaning:  if his shortest wake up was 45 min, I would respond at that time that night.  The next night, I would respond at the 60 min mark, then 75, then 90.  Eventually the entire night got worked out and I was only responding once per night (this is pre-BW era). It worked like a charm and I am thinking of doing this with DD.  DS was never distressed and in fact would jump several increments in one night sometimes.  And he was a TOUCHY baby by Tracy's definition.

Last night DD woke up at 1:45 and settled herself, then again at 2:45 and settled with little sh/pat then 3:15 again but didn't go to sleep again until I fed her at 5:00am.  By that pattern, her shortest time was 30 min, so tonight I wouldn't respond and earlier than 45 min for each wake up.  Of course, if she has a shorter one tonight, then that would be my starting point.  I'm going to see how tonight goes (maybe last night was a glitch) and then I think I'm going to try this plan.

Incidentally, do either of your lo's sleep on their tummies at this point?  Mine is still tightly swaddled on her back.  I can't help but think that if she was on her tummy sometimes that would help push out some gas?

Any other thoughts??

[Sarah O]

Wow - it IS a comfort to see all these similar posts!  5.5 months must indeed be a sucky, crappy time sleep-wise.    I have TWO babies going through it right now and I'm now counting my sleep in minutes instead of hours.  I used to say "if I get three hours, that's a good night", and now I long for those days....!!!

Seriously though, I have wondered the exact same things as you guys...gas waking them up or waking up and having gas; tummy sleeping instead of on side/back; needing to feed or not; etc.  Question...if you were to put your LO to sleep on their tummy, how would you position them?  I haven't tried it but it seems that with my two, they would lift their heads up immediately.  Would you wait til they're asleep and then lay them down on their tummies and if so, what happened to falling asleep independently?  Oh, so confused.....!!!!

Maybe we should each try a different experiment tonight and post our results...one of us try tummy sleep, one of us stop the swaddle, one of us give gas drops before bed, etc....??

Don't you guys wish there were baby behaviour consultants around to come visit and fix all our problems a la Tracy??

So glad to hear from you all....

Sarah

[mothergloose]

Hi there,
I'm new to this and I don't really have a response to your situation but I'm hoping you can help me as my son is almost the same age (just 20wks).

Basically I'm not quite sure what methods to use in my situation (after reading and re-reading BW Solves Problems) as I don't know if it'll make the situation worse or if it's even applicable.  I've been scanning/reading lots of threads to get an idea but...  there's a couple of things

1. Since about 6wks, DS has been sleeping through night from 8-9pm until 3-4am (sometimes .5hr earlier or later too) when he would feed - basically 7-8hrs.  He's still doing this. I try to give him dummy (pacifier) to see if he'll settle again or is hungry (?) and sometimes he'll re-settle but usually only for .5-1hr more.  No problems for him returning to cot and he feeds for usually 20mins. I'm trying to work out if it's a habitual waking now or needs the feed. Should I be cutting this feed out or still ok as he seems to be feeding properly?  Should I start the 11pm DF?

2. For the past couple of weeks, he's been difficult to get to sleep for the night (days are generally fine)... I or hubby usually try for up to an hour to get him to sleep and then if still not settling (crying hard, kicking legs etc) I'll let him up for activity (tummy time) for a short time to wear him out and try again. That usually works but by then it's close to 10pm and I don't want this to become a habit.  Should I use pat/shush or PU/PD?

I think he might be teething (can't feel anything yet) as he's fussier and normally quite easy to please and handle.  He's on 4hr routine (generally his waking is 7-8am) for about a month now... I'm trying to put in a more definite bedtime routine (like bath which was a shower in mornings, etc) as he's more aware now and to be putting him down by 8pm. I'm trying to increase my milk and then maybe decrease the 3am feed.

Sorry this is so long but I was trying to put anything I thought would help.  I'm still reading through the Sleep Q&A document posted.

Cheers!
Rochelle
DS Liam - 18/8/05

[Eden's Mum]

Good grief i came on linet o post about this verything. My Ds is 5 ish months and for several weeks now is waking up between 2 and 5am but rather than nodding on and off he stays awake for at least2 hours, sometimes 3, which is longer than he can manage inthe day!!! He isn't usually distressed and sometimes is even happy playing on his own but he makes a real racket and I can't sleep through it. I have stopped waking him for his dream feed as he used to do it then too but the effect of course is that he wants two feeds inthe night rather than just one now. He is the worlds worst feeder and i have been unsuccessful in getting any help at all with this. He breast feeds for two or three minutes and then looses interest for 4 hours. At nursery (i have returned to work) he will not take more than 2.5 oz from a bottle, then goes 4 hours and his solid intake is minute. I suspect these things are linked but i am at my wits end and so exhausted. He used to wake once or twice anight, feed and then go bakc to sleep. how i long for those days again! His day time sleep is fine, i have tried cutting it back b bit with the result being a cranky baby who still wakes for 2 hours a night! We don't do sh pat unless we are desperate as he can settle himself when he wants to. He is a tummy sleeper and his head comes up when we put him down, but we walk out of the rrom and leave him and when he is ready he liew down an falls asleep. It usually takes bewteen 5 and 15 minutes.  i am not sure how much longer i can go on functioning on so little sleep and working too. especially when ds1 is up some nights too with wet beds or bad dreams.  Still, good to know it is probably normal. just a pity there doesn't seem to be an answer. How long will this last do you think?

[sarah brown]

Hi firstly Rochelle I would definatly introduce DF I introduced this at 20weeks to get rid of the night feed and in that respect it worked and he actually went through for a couple of weeks although as you will know from earlier post thats not the case now but at least your not having to warm bottles and sit there for 20 mins, although my DS wakes in the night, sometimes it's will only be for 5 mins.

Mommy in moose jaw and sarah o - last night Ollie woke as usual and he was very wriggley and eventually passed wind and this continued through the night, so I think that the theory is right, and I'm thinking it's to do with the change in digestion due to weening even though I have been avoiding foods that cause gas, this may seem like a wierd question but has yourR LO poop started to go hard.  Ollie has a terible struggle at first then once he's past some the rest comes easy so there must be some changes going on down there (lovely topic)

Clare When I had my first (Amy now 5) I went back to work when she was 5 months and now you mention it she went from perfect sleeper to waking all the time and I put it down to seperation anxiety but perhaps it's just a five month thing, it should have a name like the terrible two's does.

Speak soon sarah

[mthyne]

I haven't been on in a while, but I just read this and know exactly where you're coming from!  My son, 22 weeks, has the same issues on some nights.  What we've done is put him on his tummy to sleep now.  He now does a 10:30 df, and sometimes wakes once for his paci, but no more than that.  I noticed that when he was on his back he squirmed a lot more and kicked his legs everywhere.  I think he overstimulated himself!  I know some people don't like putting babies on their tummies, but he's big enough to hold up his head and upper body and roll over, so I don't worry about it.  Plus it's much easier to do pat/shh this way.

[Mommy in Moose Jaw]

Hello all.  It seems Mothers around the world are wondering what the deal is at 5 months??  I wanted to respond to a few things and also offer a little insight from my night last night.

Sarah O -- just when I thought I had it tough, you have twice the difficulty!!  I remember when I felt sorry for myself if I got 6 hours of sleep, now the usual 3-4 lately I'm thinking "not bad, I can get by on that!".  I too have been wishing there was a behavior consultant built into postnatal care.  Most of these theories, even as simple as NOT nursing to sleep, are not talked about at all in our postnatal care by doctors or health nurses.  It's reallly trial and error in a time when we are not connected with people who have spend ages around babies.

Sarah Brown -- In answer to the poop thing, yes, my dd's poop has suddenly gotten much more solid over the last couple of days.  Prior to solids, dd was bfo and had gone as long as 8 days without a bm.  Since solids, bms were much more frequent and progressively more formed and now they're like big kid poop.  So yes, I agree that weaning has produced some new changes and adjustments in the digestive system.  And I swore I was never going to be one of THOSE moms who talked about poop!

Mothergloose -- I agree to start a DF as even though right now it doesn't really matter where in the night those feeds are, when it comes time to wean a feed, gradually backing up the df by 30 min at a time will be much easier to adjust to than eliminating a 3am feed.  It also starts to set a pattern of what part of the night their tummies should be empty.  You mentioned your lo is going to bed at 10pm.  I wonder if he is sleeping too much in the day?  Maybe a couple of nap hours could be moved to the night?  As for resisting bedtime, On the times dd has really resisted nap or bed time, we will unswaddle her to see if she calms.  If yes, reswaddle and start again.  If no, walk out of the room until calm, then go back in and start again.  Basically, keep taking steps until calm then repeat the bedtime process immediately.  DD put up a real stink a couple of times then got the message that bedtime was non-negotiable no matter what and hasn't done that since.  The couple of times I did take her out to try an activity seemed to set a precedent that she came to know I might eventually cave.  And yes, I agree teething may be a possibility as I'm sure we had our first episode last week also.  Apparently they can go up and down a lot before breaking through, so this may come and go for quite a while!

Eden's Mom -- you mentioned your lo stays awake and plays at night.  Our dd did that too unless I stayed with her and did sh/pat.  I was thinking it would be better to get her used to sleeping at that time rather than letting her stay awake and play.  I notice that even though she seems happy, the entire routine starts to break down if she has missed sleep at night, the whole cycle of day sleep affecting night sleep, and vice versa.  As for the tummy sleep, my MIL has a theory that not only would it help push out gas it helps babies feel cozy and secure as they sort of swaddle themselves as it eliminates flailing.  Unfortunately my dd isnt' rolling so I'm leary to try that yet.

Now on to my observations (as I write a small novel -- sorry folks)....
Last night I decided to stay with dd until in deep sleep each time she woke (hence my only 3 hours of sleep!).  The first time she woke was 1:37 and I did sh/pat until deep sleep.  Then she woke again at 2:48 and I repeated the process except I left after she was sleeping for 5-10 min.  She woke up before deep sleep and I had to go back in at about 3:05.  This time I stayed until deep sleep and she slept until 6:15 am at which time she was jsut awake for the day cooing and babbling.  I should have let her be, but I thought she may sleep a bit more if she was hungry so I fed her.  She stayed awake at that point so I think I should have jsut left her until 7am.  Anyways, what I noticed was that dd did have gas at night but I think it is only an issue as she lays there awake.  If she was relaxed and sleeping I could hear the gas coming out without a problem.  When she wakes, she gives an extra squeeze that makes it loud.  She's not pulling her knees up like when gas bothers her so I think it's just that she notices the gas when she wakes. 

As for addressing the problem.  Supporting her into deep sleep seems EXACTLY like when I had to do it for nap times and getting her past that first sleep cycle of 45 min.  As she was falling asleep again, she twitched a lot and would partially wake up.  With her naps this gradually improved and she no longer does it.  I am just going to resign myself to staying with her until deep sleep at waking for a few nights until she can do it herself like she learned with napping.  Hopefully that will work.

Anyone else have any thought?  Again, sorry for the novel!

[sarah brown]

Hi mthyne,

I've just read your post and wondered my LO can roll front to back but not back to front and when he's on his front hold his head up for long periods (say 2 mins) so is this then ok to put on the front?

Sarah

[Katet]

i just noticed this post, a few ideas to help you all... Yes it could be a growth spurt. Technically they say 6months, but both my boys did theirs more like 5 months.

Solids change the whole metabolism & the younger (ie before 6 months) the digestive system is (esp in bf babies) the more it "unsettles" them & changes their poop... my ds also went from once every 10days to 3x day when on solids.

They also get more mobile & so can "wake up" & sometimes want to play... the first 6-8 hours from bedtime (6/7pm physiologically) are usually the "deepest" sleep. Once they get past that stage they may not need as much sleep & the "night parties" are an indication that the day routine is needing "tweeking" That may not be more awake time, but more likely a change in "stimulation" things like reading stories, singing & moving their hands,  sitting up (proping) to see more of the world,tummy time, sitting watching trees blow in the wind, longer bath times, they are able to take in more "stimulation" & need that extra time to "tire" the brain & body.

HTH

[Mommy in Moose Jaw]

Hmm.  that's really an excellent point.  I had noticed recently that dd could handle a lot more general activity than previous.  Rather than having to keep her 'sheltered' when there was a lot of activity (ie big brother) she was more interested in what was going on, whereas before it would overwhelm her.  I had been so concerned about the overstimulatioin of before I didn't consider MORE stimulation now.  Also in the past few days (coinciding with the wake ups) dd has started making these funny aggressive prolonged grunts like she is frustrated.  she no longer wants to stay in her carseat in outings and seems to get 'bored' with activities and need a change of activity sooner than before.  I had been thinking she recently had an 'explosion' of mental development and awareness, so that is a very interesting thought.  We'll see what tomorrow brings with a little more (gently of course) activity!  Thanks!!

[CCJay]

This is my first time on the board. I wanted to ask for help. My 5.5 month old ds is waking constantly at night for the last month.There have been some good nights but these have been few and far between. We moved him from our bedroom to his nursery. The first few nights were great. He went to sleep independently and slpt right through. Then he started waking up a few times from about 2am but was easy to settle again. Now he doesn't settle so easy and i often have to resort to feeding him back to sleep. I had stopped the dream feed a bout 6 wks ago and he didn't need a feed again until 6-7am. He sleeps on his back. Sometimes he wakes for about an hr at a time. I did introduce a lot more foods at this stage too but feeding is well established now and it's stil going on. I'm back to work in 3 wks and am dreading that the nights will continue to be bad. This is probably all over the place but i wanted to give as much info as possible to see if anyone has suggestions. He's avery big boy too. Was 9lbs 7.5oz at birth. People think he's about 9 months old now. Any suggestions?