1-0 transition and nothing is working!

[AMJ]

Hi to all.

I had a very long post going here and I was advised to start a new one to get some fresh eyes on it.

DD is 2 years and 3 months. Our troubles started in December because of 1-0 transition. DD has either  EWUs or NWUs. Tbh she was waking early almost all her life. I consider 10.5hrs a night very good night. She only had a hand full of 11hr night.

At this point her days look something like this:

WU between 5-5:30am.( We had even 3:50am WU after a NND with a BT of 6pm!!)
Crib 1:15 ish
Nap 1:30 ish for 30m (I wake her)
Wu 2:00 ish
Crib 6:30
BT 7:00

In the past week or so she's been having NWU every single night which last anywhere from 1.5hrs to 2+hrs. Some nights she wakes with a cry for mommy saying that she heard some noise or she lost her bunny or something happened to her hand(can't quiet figure out what happened to her hand but I assume she slept wrong on it so it felt numb). These NWUs moved her WU to 6ish am.
I'm not sure if she is OT or UT(but she always looks OT to me cause it is very hard to read her signs and now she is sporting her dark under eye circles again).

I tried giving her an uncapped nap and stick with short night/long nap days but her mood is horrible with this routine that's why I'm capping her nap. I tried capping at 1hr, 45m, 30m and 20m. For some time 30m gave us the longest 10.5hrs nights with some 11/11+hr night after NND but lately that's not happening. 20m nap gave us 10hr night. I try and keep her day 12hrs long after a NND so she has an EBT at around 5:30/6pm. Then she wake at 5/5:30am. In the past week or longer she has NWU every single night.
 Yesterday her WU was at 7am because of an early morning NWU so I gave her an NND and crib at 6:30pm , BT at 7:00. I was really hooping for an 11+hr night but she is up right now from 2:50am for 1hr already either chatting or singing "5 little monkeys jumping on the bed" and jumping on the bed while laying down. I was thinking that maybe her 7pm BT yesterday was too late for her after NND, since her usual BT is at 7pm and she usually has an EBT 6pm the latest after NND, but I gave a 7pm BT because she was up at 7am that morning due to a NWU pushing the WU later. Oh I don't really know.

Another thing worth mentioning is that we recently moved from one country back to our country and are visiting my mom for a while. We were staying here for the last two summers so the surroundings are not completely new to DD but there is definitely lots going on with being around all the family members and new fun things. We will be moving to another province permanently in the future which could be in 2 months or it could be in 6 months so there is another change that's coming for her.

I really hope that this 1-0 will end soon and DD can have a 11/12hr of sleep every night. I would really appreciate any help and thanks in advance.

[barbaraz78]

From what I remember in our 1-0 transition at this age a 12 h day is too long for a nnd and it is very likely that your dd is already ot after 12 h. I remember that many people kept days at 11 h or even at 10 h when they had nnd with kids so young. We chose a long nap and short night because for us bt too early was not possible for out family routine.
The other thing is: how long are you trying a routine before you change it? For any routine you need a good week or more to see if it works. I would take one and try for sometimes. So if you decide to stick with nnd, I would do it for a week (and would keep day at 10.5-11 h). But a this age I would keep a nap, as my ds would not have coped without (but of course each kid is different). How long did you try with the uncapped nap/short night? As I know that when my ds was sleeping better and recovering accumulated OT, his behavior was terrible, and went better after few days.

[Aishi]

Hi

My dd dropped her nap at 2.5yo pretty much cold turkey. We were doing 20 min cn and 11.5h days but when cn messed with bt we went ct.

Nnds were as short as 10h days. We often had 5pm bts but my dd tacks onto night sleep and did 14h nights. When that stopped working for our family (ebts, short days etc) we set bt and let her self regulate as by then she had gotten used to nnds...

I agree with Barbara to stick with a routine for a good week or so...

[AMJ]

Hi Barbara thanks for your reply.
 TBH  it is really hard to keep her day 10/11hrs long on NND since she is already up so early. If she wakes at 5/5:30 am that means her BT will be anywhere from 3-4:30pm and that's just too early.

Sorry if I didn't explain correctly but we never completely dropped a nap rather did some NND alternating with ND and I sort of offered a NND when she had a good night and a good WU.

To answer your question we tried a long nap/ short night for a while and it really truly didn't work. I was advised to keep her day max  14hrs long after an uncapped nap but that resulted in 2.5/3hrs NWU.

[AMJ]

Hi Aishi thanks for your reply as well.

Oh wow 14hr nights!!! That's amazing. Dd doesn't deal with OT too well and doesn't tack on at night too often.

So I guess I should've given her a 5:30/6pm BT yesterday to keep her day 10.5/11hrs long!  But how can I do that when she wakes at 5/5:30am usually?

What routine would you ladies suggest that I try? 30m naps and 7pm BT? Or add some NNDs?

[AMJ]

P. S. She just fell back asleep after being awake for 2hrs. Is she OT do you think?

[creations]

My thoughts may not fit with others but they are just thoughts.
Mine was always a short nighter and 5am waker too.  For a long time I kind of accepted the early mornings although was always trying and hoping it would move later.  Moving BT 15 min or 30 or even an hour did not move morning WU for him, his body clock was so strong for that WU time. What worked was moving him MORE than an hour (I planned on 2hrs I think he made his move at 1hr30). It was a rapid move because moving BT at all just meant lost sleep right up to the point where the need for sleep over-rode his body clock time and he finally slept later.
Now, I know you are not so much asking about how to move the early WU but the reason I mention it is because the ability to sleep *beyond* 5/5.30am seems to be so beneficial to overall sleep length and quality.  5am is that awful time when if there is any chance of LO waking they will, and then it's a really hard time to get back to sleep even if they need it.  Once you get right past that time and stop the 5/5.30 WUs there is a much better chance of a decent restful sleep until about 7am.
What I'd do is give one uncapped nap then give a really late BT, like 8pm and the next day give an uncapped nap and move BT 8.30pm.  And if WU continues to be 5/5.30 then I'd go again, long nap and 9pm BT.  Once you reach 9pm (if not before) the morning WU should move.  Then hold at the late BT a few days to ensure the morning WU stays later (creating a habit), then slowly bring BT earlier in 15 min increments to extend the night and at the same time you can reduce the nap length.
I probably wouldn’t do a BT earlier than 8pm until the nap is totally gone.  If a LO is doing a later BT and WU IMO you have more chance of working with the transition.

Like I said, just my thoughts. I know it wouldn't be for everyone.

[AMJ]

Hi creations. That's definetely something we haven't a tried and I'm willing to try it! It is so weird but no matter were we are in the world she always goes back to the darn 5/5:30am!

Few questions:
- what time would you offer the uncapped nap at and should I move it later when I move the BT from 8 to 8:30 to 9 pm?
- And what if she keeps having those NWUs, do I just keep going?
- Also let's say it does work to move her WU later (fingers crossed) what routine would would you suggest after? 30m nap at 2:30pm and BT at 8pm assuming the WU will be 7/8am?

Thanks so much!!!

[barbaraz78]

I agree with Creations that until the nap is gone a 7 pm bt is probably too early. So, if you decide to move bt and wu as Creations suggested, and night does not lengthen, I would keep bt at 8-8.30 and offer a nap (30-60 min) until you cannot drop the nap completely and so bring bt to 7ish pm again. If now you have a 7 pm - 5/5.30 am night, I would aim for a 8 pm-6.30 am routine keeping the nap, this way you have a more decent wu.
Keep in mind that for many kids (mine for example) night length does not increase until the nap is consistently gone (the same way the single nap does not become long until you are consistently in the 1 nap routine), so for those kids alternating no nap and nap days does not work.

[creations]

It is so weird but no matter were we are in the world she always goes back to the darn 5/5:30am!

I can not say for sure but I would suspect this is because you generally put her to bed at 7pm even with the odd late night or EBTs for NNDs the general BT is 7 and she can only do a 10.5hr night so 5.30 WU it is.
To give you hope - mine only did 10.5hr nights (and dropped to much less during 1-0 transition) but after the nap was dropped he did lovely 12 hr nights until 4yo+ I only recently reduced night sleep to 11hr 45 and you can see he is almost 4.5yo!

I would say, if you want to try the big push to move BT and WU to more realistic times (which might have an end result of 8/8.30 - 6.30/7 say) then go for that first. See where you end up, and then you can follow the advice you feel most suitable from Barbara or Aishi or others.  I see you said before that you can't keep a short day because it would result in a 3 - 4.30 BT which is just too early (and I agree), if you shift BT and WU then you *should * (FX) have a bit more leeway for EBTs as needed.
I'm hesitant to offer a definite routine as I don't really know what you've tried before or how your LO is.

What time are the NWs?
It might be worth a shot to just drop the nap CT once you have a late BT and WU because then EBT becomes a more reasonable time.  I'm not a fan of days chopping and changing with a NND here and there and naps changing lengths etc, I don't manage well with it and DS doesn't either. He needed to know his routine was the same every day, and his night did not lengthen until he knew there was no nap and he needed to get his sleep all in one go at night - that doesn't happen on 1 or 2 NNDs, not for us anyway.
Or as Barbara said do a regular capped nap, I do think regularity is key.

I think we are saying the same Barbara

[creations]

Sorry I didn't answer these

- what time would you offer the uncapped nap at and should I move it later when I move the BT from 8 to 8:30 to 9 pm?

I'd do it regular time first then 30 min later as you move the BT out by 30 min

- And what if she keeps having those NWUs, do I just keep going?

Yes. It is not necessarily a solution to those NWs but it can't really get any worse can it? Just keep going.

What time are the NWs?

[AMJ]

thank you very much ladies! I will try moving her BT later but there is one thing I forgot to mention. Consistent uncapped naps not only lead to long NWUs but also to very EWUs. The night can be as short as 8.5/9hrs and that might prevent moving her WU later even with a 9pm BT. It might be ok for 1-2 days tops to leave her nap uncapped but after it's either NWU or EWU again (which means all I'm really doing is long day/short night).

today she WU at 6:45am because she was awake from 2:55am to 4:55am. And therefore I don't even know how to fit an uncapped nap  and manage 8pm BT. I would imagine she would sleep max of 1.5hrs (just estimating), morning A is usually 7.5hrs so I hope she might go down at 7hrs if she is OT. That means her nap needs to be at 2pm ( usually it's at 1:30pm). Then if she naps for 1.5hrs she will WU at 3/3:30pm and after a such a long nap she will probably need 5.5-6hrs of A which means brings her BT to 8:30/9pm. Do you think I should just shoot for that right away?

Creations, she wakes at night anywhere from 12:30am to 3:30am and stays up usually for 2hrs, sometimes 1.5hrs.

With regards to her having consistent EWU I tried BT at 9pm, 8pm, 7:30 pm when we travelled to a different time zone but somehow her WU keeps moving earlier and earlier and that's why I keep moving her BT earlier and therefore her whole day shifts earlier and we are back to 5/5:30 WU.   

[creations]

The night can be as short as 8.5/9hrs and that might prevent moving her WU later even with a 9pm BT. It might be ok for 1-2 days tops to leave her nap uncapped but after it's either NWU or EWU again

I think you've answered your own question here   Don't forget, you are the mummy, you know her, you are the one who has been dealing with this throughout and you are the one who knows what is likely to happen.  Trust your mummy instinct If you believe it will only work for a couple of days then do that.  All the rest of us can do is look at times and make guesses based on our own experiences and threads we've supported in the past.

hen if she naps for 1.5hrs she will WU at 3/3:30pm and after a such a long nap she will probably need 5.5-6hrs of A which means brings her BT to 8:30/9pm. Do you think I should just shoot for that right away?

Yes why not?  Just take advantage of the opportunity given to you in that later WU.

when we travelled to a different time zone but somehow her WU keeps moving earlier and earlier and that's why I keep moving her BT earlier and therefore her whole day shifts earlier and we are back to 5/5:30 WU.

Well, here you have also said it yourself, you "keep moving her BT earlier".  If she can only do a 10hr or 10.5hr night then that's all she can do. It's not likely to change until she drops her nap completely so you are stuck on a perpetual cycle of her waking "early"(but chances are this is not "early" she has just finished sleeping and cannot sleep any more) so you put her to bed earlier so she wakes earlier so you put her to bed earlier.  If you work with the times she *can* sleep BT can be later, it can.
If you want 7am WU then consistent 9pm BT (or even past 9pm initially to force the body clock to shift) should give it. If you feel 9pm is just too late for you then aim for 8.30 (that is after her body clock shifts) but don't expect WU to be later than 6.30am.  *If* you get more than 11hr night then great, if not, well I'd just accept it.  I know it sucks but you can't make her sleep any longer than she can sleep.
I do think getting past 5/5.30am is the hardest part, and you *might* end up with a slightly longer night as a result but I'd keep expectations low.
In fact, I know a lot of BW mummies say to do a 10 hr day and 14 hr night after nap drop...I'd actually wait until she showed she could do that before doing it. I'd personally look for more like 11.5hr night (making more than 12hr day!!) initially and then FX the night will lengthen to 12 over time. If there are a few 14hr nights then fine but IME with DS it wasn't more than a couple of random nights like that. I was happy to get 11.5 and even happier when it turned out to be 12hr.

[AMJ]

Thanks again creations!! You are so detailed it's awesome.

Now when I said that she will only do a 8.5/9hr night with a long nap, and therefore after 1 or 2 days of 9pm BT her WU will go back to 5/5:30am- that might not be long enough to brake the habit of waking at 5/5:30am. Is there anything else I could try? Moving BT by little never worked for her like it didn't for your LO.

[creations]

If you don't think starting with a long nap will work then don't do it. The suggestion of a longer nap was to help get through to a later BT to shift the day. If you are convinced that won't work then do a short nap and very late BT.
Or like I said before, cut her nap cold turkey, just drop it.
The thing is you've been going through transition for over 6 months, I'm assuming that as your previous thread continued and you are posting a new thread it means you didn't find a relatively agreeable routine which would just 'do' for a while whilst you wait for her to grow and handle the full nap drop. You say you've tried everything else and I expect you really have considering it's been going on so long.
The way I see it, the only things left to try are kind of radical (because whoever was supporting you on the previous thread will have already been through all the regular stuff). Big changes, grit your teeth and hang on to your hair kind of stuff.
If you cut cold turkey now what do you think will happen?