Need help with naps please please - 7.5 months

[mayabee]

HI Tobysmom,
I just wanted to let you know that I have been in a similar boat as you for the last few weeks with short erratic naps, easy to go down for bed but back to one night waking for my DD. This started with her teething. I'm sending you lots of support!
Charlotte's mom

[deckchariot]

you mention that you're hoping that the set nap times will lead to a consistent wake up time - I'm not sure that they will.  My dd doesn't have a set wake up time, yet her nap is usually between 12:45/1:30 that she goes down.  Just in the last week, she's woken at 7:30, 8:00, 8:40, 9:15, and 7:00  - that I can remember.

I think the reference to someone suggesting set naptimes was specifically in regard to the first nap of the day, as you were unsure when Gus woke up each day.  BW in general does not recommend doing set nap times for every nap regardless of your child's cues.  However, for moms who aren't sure when their bubs wake, establishing a time for the first nap of the day can be helpful.

As I stated in my pp - I'm concerned that the super long A time before bed will lead to chronic OT.  My dd is 21 mos, and she barely makes 5.5 hrs of A time (before her first nap) - so expecting a similar A time for Gus before bed may just be too much.  Before bed, my dd comfortably does 3.5 - 4.5 hrs of  A time. 

The link I posted above for average A times would indicate that a 9 mos old would be somewhere between 3-4 hrs.  Personally, I would be working towards that for his A times, how you do that needs to be something that works for you and Gus - if that's occasional 3 nap days, then do 3 nap days.  If it's set nap times - figure out times that will balance his A time out during the day, rather than loading it all before his bedtime.  You may need to flex back and forth with 2 and 3 nap days (just like you go back and forth between 1 and 2 nap days when making that transition).  I know that's not what you want, but it may be what Gus needs.  I just don't think it's realistic to expect Gus to wake at the same time every day, nap at the same time for the same length at the same time as his brother and sleep the same length at night.  I wish I could coordinate my dd's routine that exactly, but she just is her own little person - just like Gus is.  I think if you can flex with him, it will make this time less stressful.  And remember, he's not going to be taking naps forever - this is just one stage.  Take one day at a time and do the best you can.

[lilac83]

I do set naps with DD and her wake time varies anywhere from 6:30-7:15. I think it's pretty common to get close to an hour deviation here. The theory behind set naps is that their internal body clock will get programmed for sleep around the same times each day. Like Michelle said above though, my DD's set naps are mainly based off A times. So for her at 7 months her A time would be 3 hours generally. The first nap I take into account the earliest she usually wakes and the fact that she usually likes shorter A time here. So I made it 9:30 and she sleeps anywhere from 35min to 1hr 30min. The second nap I take into account an early waking from the first nap and the A time. For this nap she's usually asleep by 1:30 but I will keep her up as late as 2:00 and she sleeps anywhere from 45min to 1hr 30min. Bedtime is also set here as early to bed lead to EW for her. On average she sleeps 11.5 hours so bedtime is 7:30 (as in she's asleep at that time). Normally her final A time is 4 hours, a bit longer than I'd like but she handles it relatively well mood wise and so far it hasn't caused any night time problems.

So, just my personal experience with how I picked my DD's set nap times and how they work for us.

[Tobysmum]

Hi,
Thanks for your responses.  Here are my responses to your comments/suggestions:

DECKCHARIOT
This post is written in Upper case - it's not intended to be "shouting" - it's just to differentiate between the 2 posts!

you mention that you're hoping that the set nap times will lead to a consistent wake up time - I'm not sure that they will.  My dd doesn't have a set wake up time, yet her nap is usually between 12:45/1:30 that she goes down.  Just in the last week, she's woken at 7:30, 8:00, 8:40, 9:15, and 7:00  - that I can remember. 
I THOUGHT BW SUGGESTS STARTING AT THE SAME TIME EACH DAY - THAT WE WERE SUPPOSED TO WAKE THEM AT THE SAME TIME EVERYDAY?  I THOUGHT I READ THAT IN THE BOOKS?  I WAS KIND OF UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT BABIES (AS ADULTS DO) WOULD FALL INTO SOME REGULAR WAKE UP TIME IF THEIR DAYS ARE SIMILAR.  MY TODDLER DOES NOT WAKE AT THE EXACT SAME TIME EVERYDAY - THERE IS "GENERALLY" ABOUT 15 MIN WINDOW.  PERHAPS "MOST" BABIES WAKE UP AT A SIMILAR TIME, BUT GUS ISN'T "MOST BABIES"?  GUS CAN WAKE ANYWHERE FROM 5.30-7.00 (I WAKE HIM UP IF HE'S ASLEEP AT 7 STILL) - WHICH, IF YOU ARE GOING BY A TIMES, CAN MAKE THE 1ST NAP TIME VARY HUGELY.

I think the reference to someone suggesting set naptimes was specifically in regard to the first nap of the day, as you were unsure when Gus woke up each day.  BW in general does not recommend doing set nap times for every nap regardless of your child's cues.  However, for moms who aren't sure when their bubs wake, establishing a time for the first nap of the day can be helpful.  I BELIEVE THAT IT WAS SUGGESTED TO DO SET NAP TIMES OVERALL, NOT JUST FOR THE FIRST NAP.  I KNOW THAT BW DOES NOT RECOMMEND DOING SET NAP TIMES, BUT I DON'T THINK WATCHING GUS'S CUES AND HIS A TIMES WAS REALLY WORKING FOR US - IMO.  I AM REALLY  GIVING SET NAPS A TRY AS A LAST RESORT (WHATEVER WORKS, RIGHT?!) - I HONESTLY DON'T THINK THAT WHAT WE WERE DOING BEFORE WAS GOING PARTICULARLY WELL FOR HIM OR ME - AND SET NAPS TIMES WERE ALSO SUGGESTED BY A COUPLE OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE ON THE SITE (I WOULDN'T HAVE EVEN ATTEMPTED IT OTHERWISE).  I UNDERSTAND THAT IT PROBABLY MAKES MOST SENSE DOING THE FIRST NAP AT A SET TIME - ALTHOUGH, I THINK FOR THE PAST 3 DAYS HE'S BEEN OT WHEN I'VE PUT HIM DOWN AT 9.00 OR EVEN TODAY AT 8.45 BUT IF I PUT HIM DOWN EARLIER, IT MEANS THE SECOND NAP IS GOING TO BE SOOOO EARLY (AND IS NOT LONG ANYWAY) THAT A CATNAP WILL HAVE TO BE A REGULAR THING AND THERE WILL BE NO CHANCE OF GETTING BY WITHOUT IT.  SO, I REALLY DON'T KNOW "WHEN" TO EVEN DO THAT FIRST SET NAP. 

As I stated in my pp - I'm concerned that the super long A time before bed will lead to chronic OT.  My dd is 21 mos, and she barely makes 5.5 hrs of A time (before her first nap) - so expecting a similar A time for Gus before bed may just be too much.  Before bed, my dd comfortably does 3.5 - 4.5 hrs of  A time.   I TOTALLY AGREE - THAT'S WHAT I'M CONCERNED ABOUT TOO.  SO, THAT MEANS I'LL HAVE TO DO A CATNAP STILL AS HE NEVER WAKES LATER THAN SAY 2/2.15PM FROM THAT SECOND NAP.

The link I posted above for average A times would indicate that a 9 mos old would be somewhere between 3-4 hrs.  Personally, I would be working towards that for his A times, how you do that needs to be something that works for you and Gus - if that's occasional 3 nap days, then do 3 nap days.  If it's set nap times - figure out times that will balance his A time out during the day, rather than loading it all before his bedtime.  You may need to flex back and forth with 2 and 3 nap days (just like you go back and forth between 1 and 2 nap days when making that transition).  I know that's not what you want, but it may be what Gus needs.  I just don't think it's realistic to expect Gus to wake at the same time every day, nap at the same time for the same length at the same time as his brother and sleep the same length at night.  I wish I could coordinate my dd's routine that exactly, but she just is her own little person - just like Gus is.  I think if you can flex with him, it will make this time less stressful.  And remember, he's not going to be taking naps forever - this is just one stage.  Take one day at a time and do the best you can.   
I'M HONESTLY NOT SURE EXACTLY HOW TO BALANCE OUT THE NAPS.  AS IT IS, PUTTING HIM DOWN AT 9.00AM, HE'S GETTING AN OT NAP (HE VERY RARELY SLEEPS LONGER THAN 30 MINS ANYWAY AT THAT NAP).  THAT MEANS AN EARLY SECOND NAP AND THAT MIGHT GET US TO 1.00/1.30/2.00 OR 2.30 - WHICH EVEN WITH A 2.30PM WAKE UP, GIVES US A 4HR 15 MIN A TIME UNTIL BED IF HE'S ASLEEP AT 6.45PM.  I AM FINDING IT HARD TO KNOW HOW TO SPACE THEM OUT AS IF I MOVE THEM BOTH A BIT LATER, I WILL PROBABLY GET 2 X OT NAPS!

IN AN IDEAL WORLD, NO, THE CATNAP ISN'T GREAT AS IT MAKES OUR AFTERNOONS DIFFICULT, PARTICULARLY WITH HAVING A TODDLER - SINCE HE ONLY TAKES THE CATNAP IN OUR SWING AT HOME (NOT EVEN IN THE CAR) SO DOESN'T ALLOW US TO LEAVE THE HOUSE VERY EASILLY.  TOBY WAKES AT 3.30 - WE DON'T GET OUT OF THE DOOR UNTIL ABOUT 4.00 IF WE GO OUT, AND THEN I HAVE TO GET THE CAT NAP IN.  I KNOW THAT'S NOT GUS'S FAULT, IT'S JUST HARD TO DO.  TODAY I ACTUALLY PUT HIM IN THE SWING FOR A CATNAP AT 5.30 AND HE SLEPT FOR ABOUT 20 MINS (I WOKE HIM) - OTHERWISE IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A 5.5HR A TIME.  PROBABLY TOO LATE, AND I'LL PAY FOR THAT TONIGHT, BUT I GUESS IT WAS BETTER THAN NOTHING.  THE OTHER THING IS THAT EVERYONE KEEPS SAYING OH, AT 7 MONTHS YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE A CATNAP - BUT REALLY, DO YOU HAVE A CHOICE IF YOUR BABY TAKES SHORT NAPS?

I AM NOT EXPECTING GUS TO MIRROR TOBY'S SLEEP - ALTHOUGH I DON'T THINK IT'S UNREASONABLE FOR THEM TO SLEEP AT SIMILAR TIMES.  MY FRIENDS WHO HAVE 2 KIDS FROM WHAT I'VE HEARD HAVE THEIRS NAPPING AT LUNCHTIME AT A SIMILAR TIME SO I DON'T THINK I'M EXPECTING SOMETHING TOTALLY UNREASONABLE (OR PERHAPS IT IS UNREASONABLE FOR GUS?) 

PERHAPS I'M LIVING IN CLOUD CUCKOO LAND. 

I LOVE GUS DEARLY AND I DON'T KNOW IF THAT TRULY COMES ACROSS IN MY POSTS - I LOVE HIM TO PIECES AND RESPECT THAT HE IS HIS OWN PERSON AND IS NEVER GOING TO SLEEP LIKE SOME BOOKS SAY OR HOW TOBY DOES.  THERE ARE 2 THINGS BEHIND WHY I AM PROBABLY SEEN TO BE "COMPLAINING" ABOUT HIS SHORT AND ERRATIC NAPS - IN THAT, I PERSONALLY DON'T THINK THE WAY THINGS ARE I.E. SLEEPING AT TOTALLY DIFFERENT TIMES EVERYDAY IS PARTICULARLY GOOD FOR HIM (IMO), I THINK THAT SURELY IT WOULD BE BETTER FOR HIM IF HE HAD MORE OF A REGULAR ROUTINE RATHER THAN A TOTAL "REACTIVE" ROUTINE (REACTIVE TO HIS NAPS ETC) THAT  IS ALL OVER THE PLACE, PLAYING CATCH UP FROM SHORT NAPS ETC  ALSO, MY OTHER MOTIVATION (PERHAPS THE SELFISH BIT) IS THAT IF WE HAVE HORRIBLE DAYS, HE'S GOING TO GET OT AND OUR NIGHTS WILL BE BAD (AGAIN) AND MAKES MUMMY REALLY CRANKY AND IS NOT GOOD FOR ANYONE!

I HAVE A FEELING I SOUND LIKE I'M A COMPLAINING, MOANING, DIVA - I CAN ASSURE YOU I HAVE HIS BEST INTERESTS AT HEART AND REALLY DON'T THINK THAT WHAT I'M TRYING TO ACHIEVE IS UNREASONABLE.  IF I DIDN'T, I'D BE ON ANOTHER SITE AND WOULD HAVE DITCHED BW FOR SOMETHING ELSE A LONG TIME AGO.  I JUST WANT TO BE ABLE TO MANAGE MY DAYS A BIT BETTER, BY KNOWING WHEN APPROXIMATELY HE'LL GO TO SLEEP, APPROXIMATELY HOW LONG FOR AND HAVE DECENT NIGHTS (1 NW TO FEED IDEALLY)  - IS THAT REALLY TOO MUCH TO ASK FOR?

I AM SORRY IF THIS POST COMES ACROSS AS DEFENSIVE AND I REALLY DON'T MEAN TO OFFEND ANYONE  - I GUESS I'M HAVING A BAD DAY .

LILAC83 - thanks for your post. Will read it and come back to you on what you did with your set nap times.  Thank you.

[deckchariot]

I'm sorry you're having a rough day.  I do wish things could go a bit more like you'd like them too.  Once Gus is on one nap, that certainly will make it easier to juggle around your days.  That catnap does make later afternoons rough, but I think you're right that as long as Gus is getting up around 1/2:30, he needs it to make it to bedtime.  and if that's what he needs, you're right in giving it to him - don't worry that most bubs don't take the catnap at this age.  I know you'd like to ditch it, and someday you will.

In terms of balancing out his A times, in a perfect world, they're all the same, but in our worlds....we do the best we can.  One thing that was helpful for me was to figure out when Abby could handle her longest A time - for most of her life, her longest A time was the one after her first nap of the day.  Then once she dropped the catnap, her longest A time became her first one of the day (which was completely backwards from what it had been the rest of her life).  And now, with one nap, her first  A time is anywhere from 1-2 hrs longer than her A time before bed.  But that helps me to structure the day - know that she can go down later for her nap, and wake later and still do a normal bedtime. 

How might that apply to Gus?  Well....if he can do his longest A time before bed, then the routine you're working on now, is almost there - if you can shift everything just 10 min a week even, you'll be able to drop that catnap very soon.  If his longest A time is between his first and 2nd naps, then try pushing that one more than you push the others, and again, you should be able to ditch the catnap.  Does that make sense?

With his 30 min first nap - it seems like it's pretty much always been a 30 min, I'm not sure that's an indicator that he's OT for it - what else are you seeing that indicates OT?  I'm wondering if that's just the way he's wired, and the 30 min is not necessarily an indicator that the A time prior to the nap is too short.  But you do know him better, and you'd know if he's responding like he's OT when he wakes from that.

I'm sorry you're having such a rough time and sorry that I'm not more helpful.

michelle

[Tobysmum]

Michelle - don't feel you aren't being helpful - you are!  I know you are not the fairy godmother (there isn't one, I realise!) but your comments are really helpful.  I know this stage isn't going to last forever and once we get onto one nap, things I'm sure will improve.  It may surprise you to learn that I love this stage, I love babies  -  despite the complexity of naps - I do not want to wish it away!  I can't believe 9 months have passed already.

Anyway, I know I am not "supposed" to be logging each day BUT  today we did the set nap at 9.00am again (I was fairly sure he woke at about 6.30am today anyway) - he was asleep at 9.10 and slept for 1 hr which was great.  I'm just puzzled as to why most days he'll do 25/30 mins and then some days he'll do a whole hour!  So, given that he woke from his nap at 10.10 - I didn't want to put him down at 12.30 as I'd done the previous days as it would have been way too early  - I actually watched him and waited quite a bit longer and put him down at 1.40 - went to sleep at 1.46 so that's an A time of 3hrs 30 mins which I know he has handled fine before when he's done a 1hr nap in the morning.  So we'll see what happens with that.   A point of note is that he wasn't showing ANY tiredness cues at all, none whatsoever - I was watching him like a hawk - but I decided to put him down anyway as it was already coming up to 3hrs 30 mins A time.  If he wasn't showing any cues, do you think I could try to push the A time even more than that if he's had a 1hr nap in the am?  Could it be possible that he could handle as much as 3.75/4hrs after an hour first nap?  I didn't want to risk it and push it too much and get an OT nap, given the good nap we'd had in the morning!

I am going to continue with the set am nap, but I think the second nap will have to be variable for now, unless I get some kind of regularity in the length of his first nap.  There isn't any way (I don't think) that I could put him down at the same time if he'd had a 25 min OT nap or a 1hr nap - his A times would be pretty different (probably a range of 2.5 hrs - 3.5 hrs).

LILAC 83 - how do you handle it when your LO does a very short or longer nap in the am - do you still do the set pm nap regardless?  If I'd put him down at 12.30 today, he would have only had about a 2hrs 30 min A time which I know would have been way too short after an 1hr am nap.

The past few days, when I've put him down at 12.30 for his lunchtime nap, he's been very very tired indeed - OT I would say (hence mostly short pm naps). Whereas today, he was able to go until past 1.30!  That's quite a difference.  So doing set naps for both naps with erratic lengths of the first nap isn't going to be possible I don't think.

Given the variable lengths of his first nap, my idea is that I put him down at 9.00am everyday for his first nap, then look at his cues/A times for the second nap.  Looking at my records, he still seems that with a 25 min OT nap in the am, he can still do an 1hr nap on 3hrs A time!  So with naps longer than that I think we can get up to 3hrs 30 mins A times.  I also think that there is a very fine line with Gus between a 20-25 min OT nap and a 30-35 min regular nap.  Sometimes I think even at a 25 min nap it's not always an OT nap, he can handle a good A time.

Also, just to update on last night, I think I mentioned that I did a VERY late catnap last night - it was approx from 5.40-6.05 I think - and he still went to sleep at 7.00pm and did not wake again AT ALL until 4.30am when I fed him.  So at least I've discovered that if he woken from his second nap early, that I can do a catnap after dinner and still have a good bedtime and night.  Doing the catnap at that time is actually better in some ways as I am ALWAYS at home from 5.30 (although most days I'm home at 5.00).  So I guess that's something I've learned.  Anyway, as long as he has a decent nap this afternoon 1hr + (fingers crossed) I think I can do without the catnap today.

Question - when I'm trying to figure out whether he's had a OT first nap or just his usual well rested short nap - generally, do babies wake crying if they've had an OT nap or can they wake crying even if they've had a well rested nap.  Or isn't it as easy as that?!

OMG - he's just woken up after 25 mins for the second nap (it's 2.15) I guess that means the A time was too long.  No cues nothing, how on earth was I supposed to know?  I guess I need to get him up as toddler is sleeping and I don't want to wake him.  A catnap it is then grrrr!  We are off to a playdate at 3.30pm.

Any thoughts on always waking up up at the 30 min mark for the first nap, so we don't have days when he sleeps 30 mins and days when he sleeps an hr?

It does seem from looking back at my records that he will do one short nap and one long nap per day, plus a catnap (apart from the 3 days in a row last week when he did 1hr+ naps for both!)  Ideally, it's better that he has the longer one at lunchtime, so I am wondering whether it would be an idea to wake him up at the 35 min mark if he's not already awake from the am nap, and see if that helps things at all?  Just an idea.  I hate to wake him, but it really puts things all over the place with a 25 min nap one day and an hour nap another day - makes timing the second nap more difficult too.  I am thinking also, that having 2 short naps in the afternon (i.e. a 25 min nap + a catnap) isn't as refreshing for him as taking a 1hr nap + a catnap in the afternoon.

Thanks again ladies.

[lilac83]

LILAC 83 - how do you handle it when your LO does a very short or longer nap in the am - do you still do the set pm nap regardless?  If I'd put him down at 12.30 today, he would have only had about a 2hrs 30 min A time which I know would have been way too short after an 1hr am nap.

If she only sleeps 30/35 minutes I stay with the 1:30 nap time because there is about a 1% chance that she will take a catnap! Today for example, I laid her down at 9:30am, it took her 15 minutes to fall asleep and then she only slept for 30 minutes (who knows why as she slept until 7am but that's my DD, likes to keep you guessing ), so she was up at 10:15. So she then had slightly over 3 hours A time. If she takes a longer AM nap then I will push the PM nap a bit later but not past 2:00 because she likes a nice long A time before bed. The longest she would ever sleep for is 1.5 hours, so I know she will be up by 11:00 at the latest.

I wouldn't wake him at 35 minutes. That's a bit too 2-1 transitional, IYKWIM. I think what you should start focusing on is trying to stretch out that 2nd A time so you have him going to sleep closer to 1:00/1:30 and trying to get rid of the catnap. I wouldn't worry a whole lot about the first nap since if it's always going to be the short one it will just be that much easier to drop once he's ready for one nap. He probably only needs about 2 hours of day sleep, so try focusing on that more than on the length of any given nap.

[Tobysmum]

OK - thanks for that.  That's really what I tried to do today "stretch out the second A time" but I think it must have been too long perhaps.

Total daytime sleep today was 1hr 25 mins!
Nap #1 Put down 9.00 (set time), he went to sleep at 9.10am -10.10am.  1hr nap after probably about 2hrs 40 min A time (which I think is pretty much right for him from recent experience).
Nap #2 Put down at 1.40, he went to sleep at 1.45 - 2.10 and slept 25 mins after a 3hr 35 min A time!!!  As I said before, he showed no tired cues whatsoever, so that's why I pushed it and also because I know he's done it before and has taken another hour nap fine. 
Did not have a catnap as he did not fall asleep in the car (he never does anymore) and it was too late to do one when we got to bed.  Despite having only a 25 min nap since he woke at 10.10am this morning, he was fine - until I started to get him ready for bed and then he got a bit cranky. He fell asleep feeding and went down no problem at all.  That said, I should think we'll have a few evening/NWs tonight - I find it hard to believe that we won't given he's only had a 1hr nap and a 25 min nap all day!

OK - time for some analysis!
From looking at my logs, I see a pattern!!!  I see that when he takes an 1 hr + nap in the pm (what we are aiming for) his second A times  do not vary greatly whether he's had a 25 min or 1hr nap in the am!!!  I am surprised at this to be honest.  The A time for the second nap generally ranges from 3hrs to the longest has been 3hrs 25 mins (that was once after a 20 min am nap and that was an odd day!) but the 1hr + naps are definitely mostly around the 3hrs or 3hrs 5/10 min 2nd A times regardless of the length of the first nap i.e 25 mins, 30 mins or 1hr am nap. 
Today, I did stretch that second A time to 3hrs 35 mins (as he'd had a 1hr am nap) but we only got a 25 min nap, which I am assuming was an OT nap?  From my log, I see a definite pattern of 1hr + naps with a second A time of around 3hrs 5/10 mins.   On the 2 days that I have done a 3hr 35 min A times, we've only got a 25 and a 45 min nap. 

So there we go, looking at my logs, I think 3hrs 15 mins would probably be the max second A time that he can handle at the moment (without getting an OT nap). 

With this in mind, do you agree it's going to be incredibly difficult to get down to 2 naps at the moment,  - given that he can really only handle a max of about 3hrs 15 mins for his second A time?

For example
Just looking at possible scenarios:
a) If I put down at 9am he has a 30 min nap say at 9.10 and then say a 3hr A time  - that only takes us to 12.40 for the second nap, and if he sleeps an hour that only takes us to 1.40 which leaves a 6 hr final A time!  Would definitely need a catnap.
b) If I put down at 9am and he takes a 1hr nap say at 9.10 and then say a 3hr 10 min A time - that takes us to 1.20pm for the second nap, and if he sleeps an hour that takes us to 2.20 which still leaves a 4hr 25 min final A time! Would probably still need a catnap?

I don't know, perhaps Gus just doesn't doesn't need much sleep at all?  Perhaps he can handle a really long final A time.  I guess we'll see what happens tonight - he had a 4hr 35 min A time tonight.

May seem like I'm over analysing this (again!) - but I finally seem to have seen some pattern with his second A time in that he needs approx a 3hr-3hr 15min second A time to get a 1hr + nap in the pm, regardless of how long he slept in the am.

With that in mind, if we aren't able to stretch that second A time as you suggested, do you think it would be worth trying to stretch the first A time or just sticking with the 3 naps for now (which I am more than happy to do if it works for Gus).

[lilac83]

Sounds like you've got a good plan with the 3hr 10min second A time. I would definitely give that a shot for a few days. Perhaps knowing this, you should start stretching the first A time and keep the second at the 3hr 10min. Since he's only sleeping for 25min or so usually for the first nap anyway, I think if you try to stretch out that time at least you'll get that much closer to bedtime. So, try 9:15 for a few days and then possibly even 9:30 after that.

I guess you'll find out tonight how well he handles long A times before bed. He may surprise you. My DD had a 5hr A time tonight because her first nap was 30min and her second nap was 1hr. I did try for a catnap but no go. So who knows, it's totally possible he may be okay. Although the 6hr scenario would probably be pushing it too much, so in that case he'd probably need that third nap.

[Tobysmum]

Well, after the am nap of 1 hr nap and the 25 min pm nap and a 4 hr 30 min A time last night, we still had a good night.  He woke at 11.40pm, I resettled him without feeding but he woke again at midnight so I decided to feed him.  He took one side and didn't wake up until around 6.15am!  Not bad at all.  I don't know if the OT will catch up with him, or whether he just needs so little sleep and can handle that long A time.  Who knows? 

As far as extending that am A time, today I'm going to leave it at 9.00 as I am pretty sure he woke up at 6.15am and 9.15 will be too late I think.  I have a feeling that even 9.00 is going to be too late to put him down but we'll see.

I want to try and still to a set nap as far as possible for the morning, but I guess I still have to be a bit flexible, particularly when I know he woke earlier or later.