Author Topic: Anyone Want To Talk About The 2-1 Transition? Thread #20  (Read 56916 times)

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Offline Losh

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Re: Anyone Want To Talk About The 2-1 Transition? Thread #20
« Reply #360 on: January 16, 2012, 22:42:24 pm »
Hi Trimbler and thanks for you reply.  :)

His routine before he started nursery was as follows - around 11.5 hours of night sleep and 2 1/4 hours naps.

E 6.30
A 6.30 - 10.30
S 10.30 - 11.45

E 12.00
A 11.45 - 3.00
S 3.00 - 3.40/4.00

E 5.00
A 3.40/4.00 - 7
S 7.00

He started nursery in December and apart from one nap of 1hr 25min, he has always done short naps there and this then reflected at home (with NW and short naps). We seemed to get that sorted over Christmas, only to start EW in January!  :(

He falls asleep easily and independently for all sleeps, apart from BT, but that is as a result of him being tired, rather than necessity. He also goes down like a lamb at nursery – only problem there is waking early! When the problems started at home I would resettle him using a modified version of shush / pat – just stroking his back and whispering the odd shush – until he went back to sleep. If it was a NW it worked all the time (although I had to stay in the room for a little while after he went asleep) and for a short nap, worked about 50% of the time. Whenever I have tried it for EW however, I get nowhere. I have always assumed that as it is so close to getting up, he just isn’t so tired. When I first started BW techniques when he was around 3 months, it got to the point where he would occasionally stir, but went back to sleep after a few groans, but these days if I hear him it is usually a given that he will wake up fully.

He also got a cold when he started nursery and would wake up coughing and snotty, so I would attend to him quicker than I would normally. I also sometimes let him have a quick bf as I kept thinking how I might feel if I woke with a sore throat!

I definitely think he is still tired in the morning because as you say, he wouldn’t fall asleep at the breast otherwise! That extra bit of sleep always confuses me when it comes to the next A time though – I never know what time to start his nap. Before this EW / OT started DS didn’t really show when he was tired – it often wasn’t until we were in his room doing his nappy and stated his sleep routine that he would start yawning, so by keeping an eye on the clock I knew where I was, but now he is always tired, so is always yawning and I don’t know where we are!

Perhaps I will try letting him has his usual longer sleep tomorrow AM so that he is not so tired and then start cutting back on it as you suggest. At least then he will get some rest. He is at nursery Wednesday and Thursday though, so no doubt he will be shattered again by Friday – sigh!

It’s quite funny really – before having a baby I would never have believed I could become so engrossed in the subject of sleep. Getting up in the middle of the night I fully expected, but never had a thought about day sleep! Before I know it he will be a whacking great teenager and I will be having trouble getting the blighter out of his bed!

Thanks again for your reply and I will look forward to hearing anything else you have to add regarding my routine.

Just seen your reply too Clairebear – the long AM/short PM had been working for us for ages and I was taking the lead of my DS as he was the once who decided to do that as I never woke him. However, it clearly isn’t working now hence the EW, so I do think I will have to try to switch it over with a view to going into the 2 – 1. I think Trimbler makes sense in that a sudden change from a long PM nap to a much shorter capped one is a bit much, so I will try a gentler approach. (always assuming he will take a longer nap tomorrow now!)

I never knew that a short A time before BT could cause EW – I always worked on the premise that he was only getting 2ish hours of naps per day, so day sleep overall was ok. As he went down ok at BT it didn’t even occur to me, so I find that very interesting.

How early is EBT? As he only did the 45 mins today I put him down at 6:15, so if he still wakes around 5.30 ish, he is not far from his full quota, even though he still needs to make up for some lost day sleep.

Thank you for your input – it’s very helpful and good to talk to others who have btdt!


Offline amom526

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Re: Anyone Want To Talk About The 2-1 Transition? Thread #20
« Reply #361 on: January 17, 2012, 10:25:05 am »
Welcome losh! My ds is coming up on 12 months so I think they are similar ages. We have been working on the shirt am and lOng pm nap for months now and we are still not there yet!

I also started by trying a long am nap by foud that it really did encourage EW so switched to short am nap.

Thanks for your post trimbler. We are almost back to the 30 minute am nap. Yesterday he was:
Lots of EW around 3-5 am, eventually back to sleep till 7 when I woke him
Put down at 945, did not fall asleep till 10, woke him from a deep sleep at 1040
Put down for nap at 2, chattered for 10 minutes, woke again chatting at 3, then back to sleep when I woke him at 4
7 pm bedtime
Woke at 11 crying, then slept till 3, was up off and on till 445, and is now sleeping again. He was not talking though, more like whimpering so he may not be feeling great.

4 pm has always been our sleep cap for a 7 pm bedtime but maybe this is a mistake? Should I try to push that out? He just seems a lot less tired lately but I think he may be teething (no teete yet do no clue what cutting a tooth is like for him).

Also I have been waking him at 7 each morning to preserve our 2 naps. Some days he is up some days not. I'm wondering if I should let him sleep and try to make the jump to one nap? I am so tired and confused!

Offline Losh

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Re: Anyone Want To Talk About The 2-1 Transition? Thread #20
« Reply #362 on: January 17, 2012, 10:46:05 am »
Hi amom526  :)

My DS will be 1 on the 30th January - what a quick year that was!

As I am in such a muddle myself I can offer you no advice, but plenty of commiserations for your broken night. I don't know about you, but I never expected to be worrying about sleepless nights this far into it!

I got a treat this morning as after a 6.15pm BT (apart from some coughing around 3am) he went right through until 6.20am, so a full nights sleep at long last! As a result we didn't go back to sleep this am and he went for his nap at 9.50am. Poor little soul has been coughing all through his nap, so not sure how restful it is though!

He is still asleep at the 55 minute mark, so I am thinking I will let him have a full hour now and then wake him and try to get another nap in around 2pm. Then maybe I can try shortening the AM nap every few days and see how that goes. Does this seem sensible?

Offline amom526

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Re: Anyone Want To Talk About The 2-1 Transition? Thread #20
« Reply #363 on: January 17, 2012, 11:41:36 am »
Yes that sounds good. In glad u got a good sleep! We started  by cutting the am nap at the one hour mark. I think we did a 3.5 A after a 1 hour nap but I can't remember too well. Good luck!

Offline trimbler

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Re: Anyone Want To Talk About The 2-1 Transition? Thread #20
« Reply #364 on: January 17, 2012, 14:05:47 pm »
Losh - what a great night :) Will be interesting to see how the rest of your day goes. When our DS was taking a 1h morning nap, our day officially started at 06:30 and his afternoon nap was around 2pm, also with a 4pm cut-off. His morning nap was half an hour earlier than yours, but it doesn't seem to matter too much for him exactly what time that morning nap is, as long as it's the 'right' length and that the afternoon nap happens at the 'right' time. So see how it goes... I always found that gradual changes worked best - for us, it's taken almost 6 months to get from a 1h 10min capped nap to a 15-20min capped nap :)

How flexible are the nursery about nap times? Can you ask them to give him naps at certain times, or does he have to follow the nursery schedule? Although our childminder's very good at aiming for naps at the times we suggest, if the timing's out a bit then we also notice the repercussions! However we did manage to work towards a nap routine that would work with the childminder as well as for our son, by the time he had started there.

I think with resettling you're doing really well. In my mind by this stage, if they can do it some of the time but not at other times, there are probably other factors involved, such as routine (which you're working on) or teething etc - which I'm afraid you can't do much about other than give meds, teething gels etc. I often found that sleep would suddenly get worse and I couldn't work out why - until I felt his gums or noticed him sticking his fingers in his mouth all the time!

As for coughing, I used to be quite worried by this and thought that he'd had a really disrupted nap so brought the next nap/BT forward to compensate. However this would usually backfire, and when my mum told me that we all used to just cough in our sleep and not actually wake up, I decided to try giving his usual A times after a nap/sleep like that. To my surprise, that worked much better than trying to compensate :) Of course you may still need to allow for him being more tired if he's ill, but if it's just a tickly cough (often due to a runny nose when they're teething - when they lie down it drips down the back of their throats) then you may not need to do anything differently.

Before I know it he will be a whacking great teenager and I will be having trouble getting the blighter out of his bed!

Lol this thought often comes to me too - so hard to imagine at the moment though!

Amom526 - I wonder whether teeth may be bothering him, especially if he doesn't have any yet. They can take ages to come through though... Has he given you any other hints about teething, e.g. biting everything, sticking fingers into his mouth, drooling more, changes in poos, red cheeks, changes in eating? Have you felt his gums? Teething aside, when did you last cut his morning nap back or push out the A till BT? If he doesn't seem so tired then it's possible you may want to do one of these things... IIWM I'd try gradually pushing back BT first and see what happens, since he did 3.5h after a 40min nap in the morning but then only 3h after an almost 2h afternoon nap. What do you think? We've always tried to stick to a consistent get-up time, which has usually worked out eventually. If he seems tired when you get him up in the morning, I think the trick is to give him enough morning nap time not to get too tired before the afternoon nap, but not so much that he catches up on all his lost sleep from the night - you want him to do that at a slightly earlier BT, IYSWIM? I've often found that I could give DS an extra 5mins on the morning nap if I felt he needed it, and then keep the afternoon nap at the same time, so he was a little bit caught up on sleep, but not completely.

As for us, we're definitely in OT land at the moment! I think we're getting quite close to dropping the morning nap, but we won't be able to do that every day until he can manage at least 5.5 - 6h A time in the morning, to fit in with our childminder's routine. And that would require us to get him up half an hour later, if he can then take breakfast with the childminder (3 days a week). So I'm kind of hoping that will happen around the clock change, which would be the easiest way of moving WU time from 6:30 to 7am :) For now, I think we have 2 possible sustainable routines:

(i) up: 6:30    nap 1: 9:30 - 9:50    nap 2: 1 - 3    BT 7:30pm [when at childminders, it's tricky to get nap 2 much before 1pm]
(ii) up: 6:30   nap 1: 9:30 - 9:45    nap 2: 12:30 - 2:30   BT 7pm [when at home]

We've had recent success with both of these, however (i) doesn't always seem to give him enough night-time sleep. But then (ii) can leave him so well rested the next morning that he either struggles to get to sleep for the morning nap or just does 10mins before waking up refreshed and happy... but last time that happened, we didn't quite get the rest of the day right for him and we're still suffering the consequences! So to those of you who've btdt, what signs did you look out for to start trying 1 nap days? I had thought we'd just go with his nap refusals (we had a couple just before him getting ill over Christmas), but I'm wondering if we ought to just try it some time... Last week, his childminder gave him 30min morning naps but kept the afternoon nap at 1pm. She said he was sleeping really well, but the problem was that he just couldn't get to sleep until 8pm at BT, so that was 5h A time, which was ok at first but only gave him 10.5h at night, which just isn't enough for him...



Offline Losh

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Re: Anyone Want To Talk About The 2-1 Transition? Thread #20
« Reply #365 on: January 17, 2012, 19:50:12 pm »
Well, the day has been good!  ;D

I woke him after the hour AM nap and he went down at for his PM nap at 2pm and chatted for a couple of minutes before going off (love those baby babbles!) and slept for 1hr 25, which I thought was pretty good, seeing as he had a full hour in the AM.

BT was 7.15 but he chatted away to himself for 10 minutes, so nearer 7.30pm in the end.  I am crossing everything for a good night and a sensible WU, but he is at nursery for the next 2 days so is bound to end up OT again. Would you let him have more day sleep (if he would) on the Friday or just an earlier BT on the Friday? I don’t get back in with him until 6pm, so it’s hard to get earlier BT on nursery days.

His morning nap was half an hour earlier than yours.

I think I would bring the AM nap forward a bit as I start to cut it down, so BT doesn’t get too late. Presumably this should then lengthen the PM nap?


How flexible are the nursery about nap times? Can you ask them to give him naps at certain times, or does he have to follow the nursery schedule?

The nursery is brilliant and will certainly follow set naps if I ask them to. (They have had Gina Ford babies before, so can stick to quite rigid routines). Right now I have just given them guidance as far as his A times and told them to do what seems right for him / them at the time. Initially I was just pleased that he went off to sleep so well for them! If I manage to get more success with the short AM / long PM nap I will get them to try and follow it and hope he gets out of short naps there.

if it's just a tickly cough (often due to a runny nose when they're teething - when they lie down it drips down the back of their throats)

I did not know this, but it makes perfect sense as he does have a runny nose and doesn’t cough when he is up and about – only in bed, so it is probably teething related. He got the front 8 teeth fairly quickly between 4-8 months, but nothing since and I think his molars are coming through, although he has shown signs for ages with nothing to show for it.

It must be tricky having to fit your DS around the childminders routine as well as yours, and an 8pm BT doesn’t leave too much of the night for you really. How come he can’t have an earlier PM nap with the childminder?

Wishing everyone peaceful nights tonight!

Offline clairebear79

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Re: Anyone Want To Talk About The 2-1 Transition? Thread #20
« Reply #366 on: January 17, 2012, 20:50:09 pm »
Trimbler - I would say if your DS is waking happy & refreshed after a 10min AM nap, that's as good a sign as any that he's pretty much ready to drop the AM nap.  I think since you've come this far I'd probably hang onto it for as long as possible, as dropping to 1 nap inevitably causes OT.  The nearer he is to 18 months when he drops it, the better he will handle it.  Of course the choice is yours though, b/c it gets to a point when a 10min nap is barely worth bothering with!  If you do decide to go for it sooner rather than later, I would try nap at 11/11.30am, let him sleep as long as he wants & then give him a decent A time to BT.  If he short naps do EBT.  Then over time you can gradually shift that nap later & later until its after lunch.  Or, if he's that bit older when he drops it, you may be able to shoot straight for a nap after lunch.  That may work better for you anyway, to fit in with the CM & her routine.  & yes, if he's sleeping, I'd probably let him sleep in a bit later on days he's with her so he can make it to the later nap.

Losh - sounds like you had a good day.
I think I would bring the AM nap forward a bit as I start to cut it down, so BT doesn’t get too late. Presumably this should then lengthen the PM nap?
Yes, the idea with capping the AM nap is that as it gets shorter he will be more tired for his PM nap & therefore will need to take it earlier than he currently does, & he will need to sleep for longer.  WRT bringing the AM nap earlier, yes you could do that if he will go down for it - if not we'll all have to have a rethink!

Offline amom526

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Re: Anyone Want To Talk About The 2-1 Transition? Thread #20
« Reply #367 on: January 18, 2012, 00:02:47 am »
Well he never really went back to sleep after that horrible morning. He slept for short bursts, but nothing really substantial. I gave him advil at 3 am, but it didn't help much. I put him down at 930, thinking he would b really tired. but no, he chatted away until 950. I went in at the 30 minute mark, and woke him a very deep sleep. he then had A time from 1020 until 105. He just could not go any longer. He did wake once in the middle of his 2 hour nap, and needed his paci. He never used to wake during this nap. This plus other things are what is leading me to believe that something is bothering him, whether it is teeth or ears. I may swing by the doctors office tomorrow. He has been tugging his ears for weeks, and i think it may be teething related. He is chewing his fingers more, but thats also been going on a while.

He woke on his own from the nap at the 2 hour mark (3 pm). I was planning to do a later bt tonight, but just getting to his normal bedtime was a struggle. WE put him in at 630 after a 3.5 hour A. he was rubbing his eyes like crazy, but once in his crib, he was chatting away. He fell asleep around 650. I guess we will see what happens. I just need one good night to get on track.

I didn't realize I could cut his nap shorter thant 30 minutes. will he be really mad after such a short nap? This may be our next step. I thought the next step would just be the one nap. But after reading the above that it is really better to wait as close to 18 months, I think I need to go down to something less than 30 minutes.

Offline *Kara*

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Re: Anyone Want To Talk About The 2-1 Transition? Thread #20
« Reply #368 on: January 18, 2012, 04:57:17 am »
amom526 - I would try cutting it to 20 mins if you are worried about OT right now ;)

Or, you could do what i did when we had a really bad night/OT happening... I would throw caution to the wind for one day and not cap her AM nap...



Offline LouiseV

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Re: Anyone Want To Talk About The 2-1 Transition? Thread #20
« Reply #369 on: January 18, 2012, 05:31:53 am »
hey, would someone mind telling me the telltale signs that you're in the 2-1 transition? I'm sure we're starting it but I'm not too sure what to look for! My LO is 10 months :-)
First baby boy born March 2011 :)

Offline susaninlondon

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Re: Anyone Want To Talk About The 2-1 Transition? Thread #20
« Reply #370 on: January 18, 2012, 14:04:42 pm »
Have been on here last week and got help from Clairebear,,,however since last Sat we have had runny poo and vomiting so all schedule went out the window. He is much better today but I cant figure out whats going on with him....
Yesterday he only did 2 short naps 45 mins AM and PM..........today looks so far like been worse

Easy so far today

Up 700
Bed 945 but didnt sleep until 1005 and then woke at 1030 due to runny poo! so only 20-25 mins
Then I tried to put him down at 120pm but knew he was having none of it (yesterday he chatted for 25 mins after a 45 min AM nap and a 2nd A of 3 hrs) Tried again at 140 and he went to sleep only to wake up 7 mins later....he is up there now chatting onand off (155)his means if he does sleep that I can expect him up after 40 mins.
Is this UT, surely after only a 20 min AM nap it cant be?
His As have always been quite short...can he have made a big leap?
Ugggg........know that if he only sleeps 40 mins now we will be back to early wakeup tomorrow and its sooo hard to get him out of that cycle!!!
any advice much appreciated  :-\

Offline susaninlondon

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Re: Anyone Want To Talk About The 2-1 Transition? Thread #20
« Reply #371 on: January 18, 2012, 14:44:18 pm »
 :'(
as expected awake after 45 mins........afarid I have never once managed to get him back to sleep, once he is awake that is it. Also he is not waking happy, obviously needs more sleep. Help!

Offline clairebear79

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Re: Anyone Want To Talk About The 2-1 Transition? Thread #20
« Reply #372 on: January 18, 2012, 19:20:08 pm »
Susan - its very hard to say, esp if he's been poorly.  How old is he again?  I know my LO made a huge leap in A times at around 13months & went from doing 3ish hrs after a 45min nap to over 4.  Chatting before settling at naptime is usually a sign of UT, as is 45min naps, but the trouble you then have is that 2x short naps = OT baby by BT, & that's probably still with him today.  For the next few days if you feel he is OT then try a shorter A & see what happens.  But once he's all better, if you notice over several days that he's chatting a long time before nap, & doing short naps, it is likely he is UT & needs a longer A before his nap.  Have a look at Trimbler's routine as she is doing 3hrs A before her nap I think.

Offline amom526

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Re: Anyone Want To Talk About The 2-1 Transition? Thread #20
« Reply #373 on: January 18, 2012, 19:57:39 pm »
I am SO confused. And we are not getting anywhere!!

Last night was bad, but not terrible. Up chatting/a little crying from 230-4. I gave advil then he slept until 630. Morning nap was 930-1010. I lost track of time...meant to wake him after 30 minutes. He seemed so tired after this nap. We did a 3 hour A. Put down at 110. He chatted for 10 minutes, then woke up crying at the 50 minute mark. Then quiet again for 20 minutes. Now he has been chatting for 30 minutes. This kid never sleeps. He's not sleeping at night, and he is not napping.
I am probably starting work part time soon, and I really want to get this sorted out. I just don't know what he needs anymore. I will have to do EBT tonight, since he only had 2 40 minute naps basically. I cannot get a good night sleep out of him, and until he gets a good night sleep I really cannot figure out what his A times need to be. His A times have also always been on the shorter side, but he is just not sleeping. Part of me just wants to not care and hope that eventually things will get sroted out, but I need to know what direction I should be moving in.

Is it totally crazy to just try a 1 nap day and see what happens? It/s probably a recipe for disaster since his nights are so bad.

Offline trimbler

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Re: Anyone Want To Talk About The 2-1 Transition? Thread #20
« Reply #374 on: January 18, 2012, 20:39:42 pm »
Amom526 - it's all so frustrating, isn't it, I know! We got into a bit of a crazy cycle just before I started back at work and remember how desperate I was to get him sorted out. You're right, you need a good night to get back on track and work him out again, until then you may just have to ride it out... I wouldn't be at all surprised if this is teething related though, especially if his sleep is uncharacteristic for him. Also bear in mind that developmental spurts can affect sleep - do you think he's having one of those, or about to? I know that's not really what you want to hear, but remember it's only temporary and he'll get through to the other side... I really wouldn't advise trying a 1 nap day at the moment, if he does seem especially tired then trust your instincts and do what you can to help him to catch up on sleep. Yes you can cut the morning nap further, but IIWM I'd try to get him stabilised on 30mins first until he has a good day/night.

Susan - I agree with Clairebear, it's so hard to know when illness is disrupting his sleep. Just don't be afraid of EBT as that can really help to combat any OT and help him to catch up. One of the signs that my DS is OT is that he gets so hyper and finds it hard to switch off - so we get crazy hyper babbling/screeching for 30mins or more... and then the EW the next morning. But if he's UT it'll be much calmer chatting - you know your LO best :)

Losh - what a good day :) :) Hope he does start to sleep better at the nursery soon, I remember it did take some time for ours to settle into his routine with the childminder but he did in the end. There's no harm in asking them to aim for what you're aiming for, but it's a shame you can't do EBT on nursery days. My DH picks ours up and at the beginning he would have to do EBT before I got home, which was quite sad but did help - he was so tired that he was even willing to accept EBM and cuddle up to DH as if bf-ing! Hard to know how to play it on Friday, but IIWM I'd aim for the morning nap at the same time, even if he EWs, but if he's really OT then let him sleep a little longer (say, 1h 10mins max) and then go for the afternoon nap at 2pm again. Then if he doesn't nap well, or even if he naps really well but still obviously needs to catch up on sleep, then do an earlier BT. That kind of strategy usually worked for us in the end. You're kind of letting him catch up a little during the day, but just enough not to sabotage the pm nap by making it too OT (hopefully), then giving him the opportunity to catch up properly overnight. I find if I let mine catch up too much during the day then the night ends up being too short. But it's a tricky balance and I don't always get there first time!

Clairebear - thanks, I guess I kind of knew I should wait a little longer. The 10min am nap has only happened a handful of times, and only if he's had a really good night and is well rested - which doesn't happen often enough!