Just - why? So frustrated!

[anna*]

Why does Audrey STILL want to feed every four hours round the clock? Why is she waking to feed at 3.30am when I just fed her at midnight? I don't get it. I'm tired and just bored of this now. We occasionally get a longer stretch - just to showe she can - but it is the exception not the rule and she's not hungry at breakfast from feeding through the night. I will move Stan into our room for a few nights if you can just help me work out what to do here.

[becj86]

Can you put down all her feeds, BF/FF, solids of relevant and amounts, behaviour at feed? Lets see if we can't think this through (I'll invite Katie along to the party) and hatch a plan you're happy with.

[anna*]

Ah blew you Bec.
I'm thinking at this point to just go cold turkey. I know there is a strong contingent who say she will sleep through when she is ready, but tbh there are MY needs, too. If she was waking just once that's fine, but I think it is less confusing to drop all NFs rather than to resettle at some and feed at others.

So she has 4-5 BFs during the daytime hours, and two at night (6.30-6.30) so 7 in 24hrs. She CAN go 4 hrs between feeds but because of being on a longer EASY now I find I often end up feeding at 3hrs, just so she won't be waking early from a nap because she's hungry.

She has 3 (sometimes 2 but more frequently now 3) solid meals. She is BLW so amounts have been very small (we started at 5.5 months) but for the last week-10 days she is really getting the hang of it, lots of food going down, and her poops show the evidence that she's really getting lots of food. Not just the 'bits' (sorry TMI :X ) but the consistency.

Sometimes (i.e. yesterday) if she is being cared for by someone else she will have one or two bottles of formula in place of breast milk. This is a new thing, she didn't have formula until two weeks ago, but whether she has formula during the day or at bedtime or in the night it doesn't change the pattern of waking.

A 'full' daytime feed is 4-6 mins. She either feeds pretty well or won't feed at all, so there really aren't any 'bad' feeds, yk? I always offer the second boob but she only ever feeds single side except at night. At NFs, more often than not I offer the second boob (and she will take it) because I'm hoping she will go longer before her next feed.

Here's the last few days as a snapshot of feeds. I'm not including solids, but basically she has breakfast around 8am, lunch around 11.30-12 (depending on naps), tea around 5.

Fri
NF at 2.45am
BF at 7.15am, 10.30am, 1.20pm, 4.10pm, 6.30pm.
NF at 9.30pm (7oz formula as I was out)
NW at 1am - resettled
NF at 4.30am

Sat:
BF at 6.50am (not really hungry, a struggle to get her to feed), 10.55am, 3.10pm, 6.15pm
NW at 9pm (resettled without feeding)
NF at 10.30pm
NW 1.30am (resettled without feeding)
NF at 3.45am

Sun:
BF at 7.10am (not really hungry, a struggle to get her to feed), 9.55am, 1.30pm, 5pm, 6.15pm
NF at 9.30pm (wouldn't resettle)
NW 12.30am (resettled without feeding)
NF at 4am

Mon:
BF at 7.30am (not really hungry, a struggle to get her to feed)
7oz formula at 11am, 3pm
BF at 6pm
NW at 9.15pm (resettled without feeding)
NF at 11.30pm
NW 2.30am (resettled without feeding)

Tue:
BF at 5.30am, 7.50am, 11.30am, 1.30pm, 4.40pm, 6.15pm
NF at 10pm
NW 2.15am (resettled without feeding)
NF at 4.15am

Wed:
Up for the day at 6.30am, not hungry until BF at 8.30am
7oz formula at 11am, 3pm (half a bottle)
BF at 4.45pm, 6.30pm
NW at 9.15pm (resettled without feeding)
NF at 12am
NF 3.30am (wouldn't resettle)

Up for the day 6.30am, not hungry until 8am

[Avery3]

Anna, I know you are breastfeeding but we were still doing a NF until about a month ago and DS2 is 9 months old. at the same age as Audrey we were still having two night feeds and feeding every 4 hours during the day plus having his solids. then every now and then he would actually go 11 hours without needing a feed at night. it drove me mad!!
I decided to just let him have his night feeds and be done with it, as long as I was only up for 10mins or so in the night rahter than every few hours trying to resettle or up for nearly an hour then I was ok with it. then about 3 weeks ago it just all stopped. he hasnt needed a night feed at all.

I guess what Im saying is that it will all be over soon, if you can hang in there then maybe just keep at it?? but if its really important to you then try a plan. I kept telling myself that soon he wont need these night feeds, soon he will sleep through, it WILL happen. ... well he still doesnt sleep through, needs at least one resettle a night, but at least its not a feed.

hugs Anna, I hope you can work some thing out for the both of you

[anna*]

If I really trusted it would be over soon I might feel different... but I know that with Stan he was ADDING IN extra NFs at 9 months old until I went cold turkey. I guess I just don't really believe that babies drop NFs on their own, never having experienced it for myself!

Would you just feed him even if it had been (say) 3hrs since his last feed? 2hrs? Where would you draw the line?

[Avery3]

I always made sure it had been 4 hours since the last feed, no earlier than that, to me it wasnt hunger if it was earlier than 4 hours, no siree!

how to you try to resettle her?

[anna*]

See that's the thing she quite often wakes up like 3 or 3.5hrs after a feed, so I have to get up even if I don't feed. A few cuddles, pats on the back, stroking her forehead - sometimes just needs help finding her lovey... I can usually tell pretty quickly if she's going to settle or not and tbh I can only give it a few minutes because I can't let her wake up Stan (they share a room). If I was going to just not feed her I could set Stan up in our room, but it's difficult to spend even 15 mins resettling her with him in the room because she's just so loud! Even when she's not actually crying. I feel like it would be simpler for her - and I would get more sleep - if there was just no feeds at night.

[Avery3]

my boys share a room too and I would just turn the white noise up loud, ds1 never woke up to ds2's screaming, amazingly enough!

do you really feel its hunger or do you think its now become a prop? how does she sleep during the day? does she nap independantly??

[anna*]

Stan will sleep through a lot of noise but on the odd occasion when he does get woken up it can take him literally hours to fall back to sleep

I think it must be a prop. She naps fine, goes down independently.

[Avery3]

yep same as us here, he slept great during the day, nights were... well I was exhausted.

like I said, i chose to just wait it out. will see what the others have to say though. If you feel its a prop then it probably is.

[becj86]

Anna, I think she may be taking a lot of calories at night so she can get away with feeding only on one side (and I think snacking a bit too) during the day. I don't think she necessarily needs all those night feeds and frankly I think from what you've written here you've either intentionally or unintentionally been doing what is typically suggested, resettling if its been less than what she'd last during the day and feeding if she's lasted the 4hr or so. So, lets not go down that path again as its clearly not working for you or her.

How long is her night and do you think (mummy-instinct, gut feel) she can last that long without a feed?

I think until we come up with a plan you're happy with, it would be worth only offering one side at NFs and still waiting the minimum 4hr before feeding as that may naturally transfer some calories through to the day. Keep offering both sides during the day. If distraction is an issue during day feeds, you could try EAEAS so she's having a feed, getting ~15-20mins to check out whatever's distracting her, then having a second feed - mini-tanking if you will.

I think you could also offer milk rather than water as a drink with her solids meals - that way she's not taking in any 'empty' liquid - no calories.

Is she breathing through her nose or her mouth while she's sleeping? If she's breathing through her mouth, she may be getting dry and thirsty from that - not sure what the humidity is like where you are or what the best way to increase the humidity would be but if she's thirsty, maybe offering a little water at night will at least help with her problem at the time and help with yours by moving calories back to the day.

Any of that make sense for you? Shall we bank any of it for 'the plan'?

[anna*]

That's helpful Bec, thank you. She sleeps usually ~12 hrs overnight. She has (once) gone right through 12 hours with just one feed. I know she could do at least that and more. She is eating solids well, gets plenty of milk, is a very big girl (98th centile) and I am sure could do 12 hrs. Even when she did that night with just one feed she wasn't particularly hungry next morning.

I do offer boob again after 15-30 mins, but she's never interested, just cries when I bring her to the breast. I always try to resettle at night if it has been less than 4 hours since the last feed, but she's so noisy that if she doesn't settle quickly (like within 10-15mins) I have to feed her so she doesn't wake up Stan. As mentioned, I can put Stan in with us but only as a limited time thing - a few nights, not more than a week for sure else we'll never get him out of there!

She's not yet taking any liquid (as far as I can tell) from her sippy at meal times, but I'll put a wee bit of formula in there (don't want to waste precious breast milk!) in case any drops do go down.

She's breathing through her nose and humidity is high - like, 100% high... it has been raining A LOT for weeks...

[anna*]

Here's the bit that confuses me (I know this is really a BF or EASY question :/ ) is if I feed her at the beginning of her A time, then she's going down for a nap after 3hrs+, I'm worried that her nap is going to be short because she'll be hungry.

[becj86]

I do offer boob again after 15-30 mins, but she's never interested, just cries when I bring her to the breast.

Would she ever latch on her own given the chance? I know if I have a shower and I pick DS up without a bra on, he bends down and latches of his own accord... I do think this may change a little once she's not taking as much at night too.

I always try to resettle at night if it has been less than 4 hours since the last feed, but she's so noisy that if she doesn't settle quickly (like within 10-15mins) I have to feed her so she doesn't wake up Stan.

Is it possible to send DH and DS off to a grandparents/friends place or off camping or something for a few nights so you're not having to feed if she won't settle? This is likely the reason she keeps waking as she's not really getting the message that she's not going to be fed, just if she cries loudly/long enough, she'll get her milk. I think you probably know that, yeah? Does Stan do sleepovers? Maybe he could stay with a few different people over a weekend so you can at least give her two consistent cold turkey nights to see how it goes? I think how she acts if you go cold turkey might indicate how best to proceed - of course if she's waking every 1/2 hr or every hr, then she's obviously hungry and needs feeding but I think giving it a good test may help you decide and feel confident about your decision.

[becj86]

Here's the bit that confuses me (I know this is really a BF or EASY question :/ ) is if I feed her at the beginning of her A time, then she's going down for a nap after 3hrs+, I'm worried that her nap is going to be short because she'll be hungry.

Only ever had this issue once. It was really obvious and I fed and he went straight back down... just like a night feed but a nap feed. DS is tiny (25th centile is the highest he's been) and could go 5hr between feeds at 6 months. He took great big feeds and we got a natural cluster feed towards the end of the day and he didn't need more than one limited feed around 5am (limited so he'd take a decent feed in the morning).

You have to remember that she's also got solids in there and so the time since she last had food is not actually growing *that* much.