Gentle Weaning Plan

[costinhas]

Hi  everyone,

Sorry for disappearing for a few days but they were very VERY busy and just now I had the time to read your posts. My dd 13th tooth just came out and she started to wake more times during this process but at least it’s easier to calm her down. There's another one popping out so it seems that we have to increase our patience for some more days  :?

BetsyAnh, Jennifer, Natalie, everyone: I’m not very good in keeping routines but there is one that I've always used: music for playing, calming and sleeping. Even during pregnancy I’ve listened to this same music while resting and when she was born I used it to calm her down or when she was awake to play with her. I have a lot of CD’s (Fisher Price ones are very good) for different times in the day and she’s always surrounded with music while she’s at home.

I’ve read that babies recognize familiar sounds that they listen before birth and I prove that with my dd. I sang the same song all nights in the last month’s of pregnancy and when she was born when she ruffled I sang it and she immediately stop and look for the sound! She still likes that song a lot!

Before bedtime I can’t keep with no routine and I’ve quit to do it because lots of times I arrive late from work. When she’s ready to go to bed what we do is this:

- go play with her in her bedroom (with bedtime music) and let her burn her last strength.
- change her cloth and play with her in the cot[/list:u]
When it’s me:

- when she starts to get sleepy I bf her and try to put her in the cot before she’s fully asleep using gentle removal (sometimes I have to do it for many times).
   - Now there’s different scenarios:
     o she’s settles herself and I just need at most to pat/shh
     o I pu/pd or rub her back and talk to her
     o I bf again and repeat the last steps[/list:u]
When it’s daddy:

- play with her in the cot until she’s asleep
   - sometimes he needs to rocks her, pat/shh or pu/pd[/list:u]
She usually goes to sleep around 7:30pm and this process usually takes around 40 minutes always with music (that we leave playing when she’s asleep until CD ends and sometimes leave all night long). We also introduced a lovey with medium success.

When she wakes during night we start music again and it’s always dh that goes to her. If she wakes before 3am she doesn’t call for me. When she wakes around 3am I need to bf her because she screams “mummy” until I go there  :shock:  (this started again with this teething phase). I use the same techniques above to put her back into cot. She wakes again around 5:30am to bf.

Natalie – I think the best methods are the ones that we can cope with! For me it’s a mix of gentle removal, pu/pd, pat/shh and some weeks ago barking like our dogs :lol: ! How is your ds doing now?

Jennifer, Natalie – there’s lot’s of sad stories that we ear and after the moment that we have our own children they take a whole new dimension and it’s difficult to imagine that happening to ourselves. I always looked to motherhood as a change of habits and not as a loss. I admit that sometimes I miss my non-children life and guess what?! I miss sleeping all night trough!!! But my pregnancy was planned and I think that makes a big difference because we prepare ourselves for that change in advance.

So sorry for this

LONG post and sweet dreams for you all![/list][/list][/list]

[joaquinsmom]

BetsyAnh
Thank you for reminding me that being inconsistent is what has gotten me in all this trouble in the first time (You give advice in the nicest way, I would never think you are critisizing  ). It's so hard sometimes because I have so much to do, and I feel like I'm stuck there with ds stuck to me like he has one of those ventose things on his mouth  :lol: Plus dh does not believe this will work, and it's hard not to doubt myself when I know he's out there thinking it's taking way too long to get him to sleep and that I'm spoiling him. He almost never says anything, but I know he's thinking it. It's crossed my mind to do pu/pd but I don't want to confuse him again. I will stick with this and keep my fingers crossed.

Sandra, we use music for bedtime too, but we change it a lot. Maybe if we used the same music every night it would help? And it's reassuring to read that sometimes you have to go back to bf again, because that happens to us too and I was starting to feel that I was doing something wrong.

Natalie, thanks for your message. At least something good came from both experiences. Even if it was something really sad, it helped open your eyes and probably made you enjoy your pregnancy more. Being pregnant and then having a baby sure changes you. And I think it is totally normal to miss things from our life before we were moms. Doesn't mean we wouldn't give them all up in a second for our lo's right?

Hope all of you and your lo's have a good night!

[BetsyAnh]

jennifer- i just wanted to let you know, that from my experience (just over a month, i would say) of doing the 'no-cry' method, although i have seen gradual progress, teeth & seperation thing has caused a bit of regression that does not seem to be taking too long to get back on track (of just needing cuddle when wake up)... wow, have i had a hard couple of nights!! still no sign of first tooth, but the first night, at about 11, once she realised i was not in the room, she would cry and i would go in and cuddle, pat shh (this happened ATLEAST 5-6 times) then she would fall asleep and i think twice when i went in, all she needed was my presence, and she turned over and went to sleep! i got a bit fed up and just bf her until she was deeply asleep that i could finally get away for a bit and finish up housework... then 2am rolls around, and she was up ever hour after that until 7ish and would only accept bf (although, i could take her off soon after she went on.. if i was awake enough!!)--- this hourly waking happened for the last 3 nights... finally to subside last night, hopefully for good!!! so tired!! what funny little phases babies go through!

the advice i wanted to give you (what does your husband think about pu/pd?) is that the book stresses that the 'no-cry' solution is NOT A QUICK FIX method, and the author talks about mothers reaching their goals anywhere from 10 days- 3 months... i don't have a choice at the moment but to be patient and hope that "this too shall pass" but, i must say that if you think you and your lil un could handle pu/pd, you will probably see results sooner-- maybe try a gentler pu/pd (if anyone thinks this is not the way of doing it, please tell me, it's what i would try if i was not with my in-laws) meaning, once you have passed the phase (in first post)  where you don't have to bf every waking, and he just needs a cuddle/pat shh, if you put him down, and no dice, pick him up and give cuddle, but count to ten (or how ever much/less you think is appropriate for you both) and put him down repeating this process until he is happy and sound asleep in his cot- KEEPING IN MIND that if either of you get upset, that it's OK to revert back to bf or cuddle/rocking then to sleep. once this is working, every day or couple of days, decrease the amount of time you pick up  and hold him, eventually (i hope!) getting him to only need pat/shh (or whatever your comforting method is) and you then decrease the time you are in physical contact, (now i'm going back to the phases in my first post from Mrs. Pantley) next just by the side of the cot, then at the  door, then finally out of the room.  if you decide to try this (and nobody objects ) please let us know how it goes (or any other method you decide to use! and good luck my dear!  oh, one more thing- i think you should stick to the same music for bedtime, and only play that song at bedtime so your LO will associate that music with sleep!!

sandra- thanks for your posting of your bedtime routine, i think it helps complement what we are trying to accomplish in this message board!

i hope you are all getting more sleep than me! since my LO is 9 1/2 months, i think that age is making this process take a little longer- the younger the less ingrained the 'accidental parenting' and the easier to break!

[joaquinsmom]

BetsyAnh
Thank you for your advice. Last night I stuck to the plan even though it was hard.
I was on my way home from MIL's at around 7:30 when my sister called to invite us to my parent's house for dinner with her and her boyfriend. I didn't want to say no, because they are so sweet and they offered to cook so I asked them if it would be ok to cook at our house instead so that I could still kind of keep our routine. So I got home, tried to feed ds some cereal but he wasn't interested, and then let daddy give him his shower while I cleaned the house a bit. Totally unrelated to sleep: How can I make dh understand that if he lets water fall on ds's face the whole time he'll end up getting upset? I've told him lots of times to put him under the water for a little bit, then take him out and let him play with something, then put him back again. That always works. But noooo, he does it how he wants to and ds always ends up getting upset  :roll: Whatever...
So ds was really not relaxed after his shower, it was a struggle to get him dressed, and then he was all hyper and couldn't settle down even when I bf him. So I was incredibly patient (I am very proud of that, I'm usually not a very patient person) and let him bf a little, play a little, tried to read a book, all of this with dimmed light and some background music. It took me an hour to get him to sleep. I wanted to scream because he was stuck to my breast like glue, and it was starting to make me very stressed! But I breathed deeply and after like 20 tries  :roll: I finally got him off and put him in his crib.
Then my sister and her boyfriend came over and we had dinner, and some wine  and ds woke up like 3 times while they were there, but everytime I just did pat/sh for a couple of minutes and he went back to sleep. At midnight he woke up again and I gave him a bottle (I didn't want to bf because I had had some wine) but he wouldn't go back to sleep, so I tried walking with him a little to calm him down and then tried pu/pd and it worked really quickly!!!! it was great!! he wasn't that upset either. I put him in his crib and tried to do pat/sh, and if he kept crying I would pick him up pat his back and talk to him, and then put him back down. After a couple of times of doing this, he rolled over on his side and after a couple of minutes of pat/sh he was out!  This sounds kind of like what you were suggesting right?
After that he woke up at 4 and I bf and it took me another hour to get him back to sleep. I guess this is God showing me the virtue of patience...  I am happy because I didn't take him to our bed even though I really wanted to. After that he woke up at 7 and although he cried a little before I got to him, he was really happy after that. So again, not the best night but not too bad either... I guess that's all I can hope for at this point.

I really hope your lo is over this waking up every hour phase, I know from experience how rough that is!!!

Thanks for being so patient and nice with me!! I appreciate your support and advice so much!

[BetsyAnh]

it's late and i'm pretty tired so i'm going to make this one brief-

jennifer- it sounds like incorporating a mixtire of pu/pd, pat/shh and 'pantley's way' was really starting to work for you last night- how did you feel about it? i think a combo is also what sandra does depending on how her LO is feeling at the time of the nightwaking... if you're less stressed and (it sounds to me ) your little one is settling better, then i think that using the three methods to suit both of your needs is going to have you on the road to a proper nights sleep sooner than you think! and you are so right, patience really is a virtue! i'm glad you had a good evening with your sister, and it gave you some YOU time, and a chance to unwind a bit- you deserve it! keep it up, and soon 'this too shall pass'!
 
another thing- if you had to do the 'gentle removal' method 20 or so, i think that, if you are removing after every 10 seconds, try extending it to 15 or 20 and see how that goes for a while- if it means less tries, and you are both less stressed, then a longer extention is better for both of you, and you can decrease the amount of time from there or hopefully, your ds will wean from the breast this way (longer extention) and move to just cuddle/ pat/shhh.. what do yo think?

 about you dh: maybe just let him know that the run-up to sleep time will help set your son up for the rest of the night- i.e. for the best night sleep for ALL members of the house, the less stimulation (water in the face) you ds has before bedtime, and the more time he has to unwind and relax (which is harder and takes longer when he gets upset :shock: ) the last hour before bed, the better. anyways, i'm sure your dh wants to enjoy shower time with his son, and in order to make it the most pleasurable experience for both a little playtime in the middle won't hurt!!

good luck, i'm so glad you have this new strength and patience, and don't be silly- i have all the patience in the world and as much advice as i can give (although i am in the same boat as you!) it's just nice to know that there are others to share my experience with (hopefully for all it will soon be a memory!) take care hun xx

[joaquinsmom]

Thank you BetsyAnh! BTW I always mean to tell you but forget, I love your Avatar, that is such an adorable picture! Sienna looks like a happy little girl.

Last night routine went out the window... again... I guess with the holidays it's going to be hard to totally stick to it so I will just relax and do the best I can. We got home at around 10 p.m. after going to dh's uncle's house for his birthday and then to my grandmother's for her birthday  :shock: Ds was sleepy even before we got to the first party! but when we got there he saw all the people and was wide awake the whole time (although just a little bit fussy). When we were driving to my grandmother's he almost fell asleep, but woke up again when we got there and was really fussy at first and then totally hyper!!

He fell asleep in the car on the way home, but I had to change his clothes so he woke up again. I bf and it took me a few tries to take him off. I think what you are suggesting about increasing the time between removals makes sense. I will try it tonight. Am I supposed to start doing it with him more awake every time? After that it gets a little confusing (lack of sleep results in amnesia for me  :? ) but I think he woke up at 2 and I did pat/sh, and then he woke up at 4:00 and I bf in our bed. And then I had to wake him up at 7:30. So that was pretty good right?

I will talk to dh tonight about helping ds relax before bedtime. I don't want to discourage him from playing with ds, just want him to become more involved in the whole bedtime routine so he understands how important it is to help ds wind down.

How is Sienna doing? hope you have a good night tonight!

[costinhas]

Hi!

I was very pleased to read that things are getting better for you Jennifer. As you read in my last post I also do a mix of all those methods depending how my dd reacts to them and I really think that it works beautifully and quicker (although she keeps waking more times that we wanted  :roll: ). However the most important thing it’s patience. If we aren’t calm enough every unsuccessful try to take them out of our breast or put them in the cot seems hell. If we take a deep breath as you said and calm ourselves it doesn’t get quicker but it sure gets easier :wink: .

Jennifer: if water on Joaquin’s face upsets him why don’t you give in a bath instead? My dd likes shower but she gets very excited so before bedtime she takes a bath every other day and plays with her toys for a while and she is calmer afterwards.

BetsyAnh: as usual good advices! How everything is doing with you?

I forgot to mention two more things that I do: First we never go to Joana immediately after she starts crying. She sometimes cries on her sleep but she stops after one or two cries. Second before I leave her alone I do a test that I’ve learned with Tracy on one episode of her TV series. I touch one foot and if she moves I stay with her but if she doesn’t it’s because she’s fully asleep so I can leave the room. I hope it can help you in any way.

My dd is still teething so she’s waking more often now but it’s quite easy to settle her. I’m trying to give her a bottle of milk before bed instead of bf (I want to stop bf because I’m getting too tired of all these night wakings just to bf) but she only drinks 60ml and ask for bf. She doesn’t like bottles so I use an Avent’s magic cup (did I explain myself correctly?). She refuses it during night. Do you know any trick to help substitute a breast feed for a cup/bottle of milk?

About dh: I think that dh see these kind of problems from another perspective and because they don’t take any time to search for answers like we do sometimes it’s very difficult to have them coping with us and applying a certain method that we want to try and make them stick to it. So I like very much writing to you and reading your opinions because it’s almost therapeutic. My dh help’s me a lot but sometimes he just doesn’t listen the way I want when I talk to him about this methods even though he uses them... in a very adapted way

Heavenly sleep to everyone.

[BetsyAnh]

again, very short this time, off to bed!

Am I supposed to start doing it with him more awake every time? quote]

move it back when you think your ds is fairly comfortable (or try every couple of days if you're not sure) meaning doesn't fuss too much at the removal, or when it doesn't take too many (i would say 2-3) removals to get him comfortable and off to the cot. does this make sense? i hope extending the amount of time he is on the breast before the removal makes things easier for BOTH of you!

quick update of my own: it's only been in the last couple of weeks that i have realised how to help settle my LO- rubbing her back when in the cot and when she turns to her side (she seems to soothe herself that way) keep a soft but firm hand on her hip/tummy because if she rolls onto her tummy her little legs just want to crawl and then she gets worked up and upset and i then have to pick her up and cuddle her (if i didn't have to do this from the get go!) and instead of immediately shh-ing i say to her 'it's ok, mommy's here, it's ok... it's ok..' and i repeat that until she is not crying anymore and settling, then i go the shh-ing- i think that because she is older, gentle words are seeming to be more effective with her.

as far as progress is concerned, last night i REALLY think she would have gone from 8:30-5am if she didn't have a bad dream at 1am!! poor thing sounded so distraught! i did not have to bf, instead i did what i mentioned above, and she was good- first time in a VERY LONG TIME that she went such a stretch without crying out for me! maybe a one-off, but i hope not! also, most wakings, i do not have to lift her out of the cot anymore- i'm going to see how this goes for a few days then try to move onto the next 'phase' (which i think is trying to comfort from the side of her cot... will have to check!)

more importantly what i want to add, is that the further along the 'phases' i am going, the easier sienna seems to be settling herself and for me as well (maybe that's why she slept so well last night too! fingers crossed!)

sandra- i wish i had some advice for you on substituting breast for cup/bottle but i think it might just be you LO's temperment, and it might just be 'all or nothing' (breast or nothing) but maybe you should try to give water in it instead of milk to make it a completely different experience? my LO will not take formula milk (i think she'll be ok when she is a year and can take cows milk) from her avent sippy, but will happily take water (haven't tried it at night tho). good luck on trying this method- i talked to a mother a few days ago whose 7 month old just started sleeping through the night and she said that she stopped bf at night by putting water in a bottle and tried not to take her out of her cot, instead comforted her in the cot (cried a lot tho) and NEVER gave in to giving breast. i did not have time to ask her how long this took, but i think that if you continue with your own combo and 1. TRY not to give breast (but DO if either of you get too upset) 2. have DH help and maybe him give the sippy/bottle (mine never took to the bottle) at awake times 3. check the weaning board and hopefully you'll find better advice there- please share if something works for you! i think we would all rather not bf at night because then maybe our LO's will decide it's not worth waking afterall!

wow. wasn't short afterall! anywho, nighty night!
good luck to all, and hope you have a good nights sleep zzzzzz....

[costinhas]

Hi!

This holidays are not helping :cry: !!! We’re having lot’s of dinner’s and it just messed our routine completely!

So now she wakes again every 3 hours and WANT bf…

I’m working on reducing the number of bf but it’s a very hard struggle and there isn’t any tips anywhere how to help us doing it!

I’m also more tired so I easily quit at night. I think that I need to be more rested to put everything on tracks again… but when?!

Hope everything is going well with you!

Sleep tight.

[joaquinsmom]

Sandra, I know what you mean about the holidays. Thursday night my parents returned from a trip, and since that day Ds's bedtime has been 11 p.m.  :roll:  So you can imagine how much sleep we've all gotten (none!)

Haven't been very motivated to post because things are not going that great. Removals have gotten a little easier, but it's still very unpredictable, one night it takes one try and the next night it takes 20... But for the most part, it takes about 3 or 4 now, so I guess that's some progress. I'm just starting to worry because I start school in january, wednesdays and thursdays from 6 to 9:15 so I won't be ther to put ds to sleep, and I know dh will just let him cry...  :cry:  :cry:  I've worked so hard to avoid that, and he just doesn't get it.

Last night I was at the end of my rope. I just couldn't handle bfing any longer, so dh came and got ds who was very upset, calmed him down and then put him in his crib again and sat by him, and ds just cried and cried. Dh got something to read and just sat by his crib reading!! I couldn't stand it, so I went in to comfort ds, I didn't take him out of his crib, just did pat/sh and kind of held him in his crib, and he finally fell asleep. Dh got very angry at me and told me that if I wasn't going to let him do things his way then I would just have to do it alone  :cry: I really don't know what to do.

We NEED to improve drastically in one month, or I don't know what will happen when they are left alone with each other. I'm not sure what I'm doing is the right thing, but I am CERTAIN that letting him cry is not the best thing for him. Everyone tells me I'm spoiling him but I don't care, he's my son, and maybe I don't know for sure what is best in this situation but I do know what is worst.

So happy I have this place, and I know that in some way I am not alone.  :cry:

Hope you guys are making progress.

[Frosty]

Hi to everyone on this topic.  I wanted to let you all know that I have been lurking about reading all of your advice for the last couple of weeks as we are struggling with similar issues with our ds.

We have been trying the Pantley method to get ds off of his pacifier at night for about five days and are seeing only moderate progress.

However I wanted you to know that your posts help keep me on track and I appreciate you sharing your experiences.

Thanks!! :wink:

[costinhas]

Hi!

Jennifer- I wanted to help you more and say to you “this is the way” but unfortunally I don’t know it even for me :cry:  I don’t know if one month is enough but probably letting him cry is not the solution for sure. Once I decided to try it and it was awful  :roll:  she got so upset that she didn’t sleep anything and in consequence me either! It’s also difficult when our dh don’t feel comfortable in trying and maintaining these methods because consistency it’s all and they need it. Did you explained to him all the methods and let him choose which he prefers? Perhaps if he likes one better he will stick with it?! I wish that I could help you more but be sure that I’m 100% with you and crossing fingers! Don’t forget to rest and pamper yourself! You are needing it :wink:

Frosty – Welcome! This way isn't quick but for me it’s very smooth and “almost tears free”! So I’m wishing that everything goes well with you and let us know how you’re doing!

My dd went to bed after bath at 18:40 today She bf to sleep but only for 5 minutes. She cried without waking up at 22:00 and dh just shh her. Let’s see how it goes tonight.

Sweet dreams.

[BetsyAnh]

these next two posts are not intended for any of you ladies, i just thought that i needed to put it in just in case anyone felt they were at the end of their rope- and i REALLY am too tired to type it all out so i hope it's ledgable (sp?)


from 'The No-Cry Sleep Solution' by Elizabeth Pantley:

I've Tried Everything! Nothing Works! Help!"
the ideas in this section are intended for anyone at the end of the rope or anyone who is ready to give up and let the baby cry it out.

for many different reasons, not every test moommy i worked with had fabulous, immediate success. a few parents struggled---->

[BetsyAnh]

pg2

[BetsyAnh]

final pg