7.5 mo long NW

[tweetie]

Hello, I came here from general sleep board  . Jessmum help me a lot in sorting days so my spirited DD now has two naps - morning around 1.10 - 2 hr and afternoon 1.5 to 2 hr in average (6 months old spirited baby self settling problem). She is on 4 hr modified EASY and days became pretty predictable (thanks God). Until mental leap 4 she was waking during nights for food - around 2 am and then 6 am, she is BF. Last two months I am offering solids but she is not very interested. After that mental leap (in combination with the vacation where she could not sleep and adjust at all - we run away after 9 days) nights went downhill, she would be awake and cooing for two hours and then went back to sleep. We were ignoring that but things did not change. There were some nights that she would sleep just with regular wakings for feeding but in the last month I think we had maybe 5 nights that she would wake and go back to sleep within 20 minutes or so. I was thinking that nights will sort out when we work out on naps and schedule but they did not. With teething things were worse she would wake up screaming  . Now sometimes she would play with paci but sometimes (like last night) she would be tired, restless and hyper but could not fall a sleep. Usually that ends after 2 hrs in average. Last night I should wrap her tight to calm down and hold in my arms to fall a sleep. If she is partying then she falls a sleep in her crib. She is still not independent sleeper but we are working on that. At this stage I hold her for the hand and sit next to the crib or if she is not too tired I could do WIWO. Her A time is 3.15 (typical EASY is posted on the link above but if you want me I can write it here). I can not figure it out what is waking her - diaper, teething, wind etc... These wakings are between 1 am - 4 am most often around 2 or 3 am (BF and then can not go back to sleep, or just waking no feed). Her crib is in our bedroom. Is there any way I could deal with that? Thank you very much

[tel33015]

Hello tweetie,

I don't really have much advice but just wanted to offer my support and let you know that I am too going through long NW and I know how tiring and frustrating it is to not be able to figure out why they are waking and then just playing in cot for a long time. The Mummies on these boards are just brilliant so I hope you get some really helpful advice soon.

Good Luck 

[tweetie]

Hello tel  , thank you very much I appreciate it. I hope because they are my last hope  . My spirited baby is real peace of work  jess helped me a lot on general sleep issues and I hope that here somebody will help me too - I became spoiled  . When NW started they were cot parties but last month I would not say so - at the end it turns into play but to reach that point it takes a while - I assume when she becomes completely awake i.e. last night first she was crying then she started to play, became hyper, scratching me, could not calm down...

[Erin M]

I looked at the last EASY you had on your other thread -- is that more typical of your days right now as on both of the days you had listed, you had a longer nap and a shorter nap.  Or do you usually get the two longer naps? 

When she wakes at night, what does she typically do?  And how do you typically respond?  Do you give her any chance to settle or do you go to her right away? 

[tweetie]

Hello Erin thank you very much. From Tuesday she has two naps - morning 1.10-1.50 min and afternoon 1.10-1.50 -it varies. Last night she slept  I mean she did wake up but went back fast - I need to admit that after BF at 2.40 am I hold her to be sure she is sleeping and then return her back into crib and also put my hand once when she started to cry but that was for very short.
I could post EASY from yesterday.

WED/TUES night - she was awake from 2.33-4 am
TUES   WU 6.40
E 6.47 BF
   9.15 solids (trying, trying)
S 9.44-11.35 (1.50 hr)
A
E 12.25 BF
S 3.57 - 4.07 (1.10 hr) - she woke up crying but I did not want to return her back because she would maybe sleep till 5 and then will not fall a sleep before 8 pm
E 4.08
A
E 6.42
S 7.27 pm
feeding 10.31 pm, 2.40 am
TODAY WU 6.11 am - waking with crying (I tried to return her back so she was trying till 6.30 but did not work)

What I notice is that she always need to have these 3 hr or 3 h 15 A time (only if she is very tired) and if she sleeps by 5 pm there is no way she would fall a sleep before 8 or 8.20 pm and in the morning she never sleeps so long. In addition if she has NW then she loses more sleep than she would when BT is at 7 pm - I am thinking to cut that second nap if would pass 4 pm, what do you think?

I am not sure what would be typical anymore....lately we have three types of waking:
1. fussing (I wait a little then I put my hand on her, maybe replug paci) and she goes back to sleep (this I do not consider problematic and they appear a month ago - I would say that is problem of transition?). I hope that will disappear when she will become completely independent sleeper? Maybe I am wrong?

2. Lately she wakes up crying - I could see she is sleepy (rubbing her eyes, pulling ears) and she would like to sleep but she can not. If I let her she would start to cry harder and it would escalate... first I put my hand on her, replugging paci, (usually she does not want it), next stage: I lay down in her crib with one part of my body  and try to calm her, but that also does not work, then I take her in my arms to calm her down and then return her back to crib (sort of PUPD), she stopped to cry when she becomes completely awake and then she is playing in the crib. Sometimes she is hyper and kicking paci out of the bed, flaunting with hands, scratching my hand ... in such cases nothing works and it takes forever to calm her down and then I do AP - wrap her in blanket, holding her and patting. Then she is producing characteristic sound (not crying) and that is typical when she tries to fall a sleep but she can not and it takes forever plus crying and again...

3. night BF - she eats I burp her (at least try lately she is protesting and crying), return paci and put her in the crib - she falls a sleep or it looks like and then after approx. 10 minutes it starts... similar procedure as mentioned in #2  . Lately immediately after BF I do AP  so I hold her in my arms 20 minutes (magic time if she falls a sleep that she will stay a sleep when I put her in crib) and then put her in crib. In most cases it does not work (she canot sleep, or wakes her immediately after I put her in the crib)- last night it did (or maybe she would fall a sleep so and so but I need that sleep so I did not want to take a risk  ).

When I am thinking about that transition problem and try to explain to myself logically  , how come that when she wakes at 10.30 or 11 pm for feed (I do not do DF) she goes back to sleep without any problem  . I know that it is deeper sleep till midnight but still, when she eats she is looking the same with wide open eyes as at 3 am.

In general about her sleep: she will destroy us with her light sleep - we live in the flat so when she sleeps I can not do anything just sit in the front of computer  . I turn on music really loud - Lovely Little Night Music from Raimond Lap and it goes on and on... whole night too (not very loud), I tried to turn it off God she was awake within 10 minutes  ... I can hardly sleep  ... from the white noise - washing machine worked during colic, water faucet sound till few weeks ago (I realized that even that wakes her in the night  ) .... she sleeps in average 12-14 hr

I tried to do shh path - she was laughing at that (spirited baby  ), PUPD frustrated her very much and she has paci so I did not force it. She does not use paci during the day and it is like a ritual for sleeping but very often she spits it out when she falls a sleep.

Holding for the hand for sleeping started when I noticed pretty strong separation anxiety a month ago or maybe even month and a half (I lost the sense of time, sorry).
Now I write a novel  , sorry for my English I am not a native speaker.

edit: now she slept just 56 min but A time was 3 hr (she was sleepy)
one more thing - no matter how long naps are she wakes up crying (lately) 

[tweetie]

OK just to finish our EASY from yesterday but not the night 
so the first nap was 56 min, next A time 3.25 (it was hard for her to fall a sleep), S 1.12 hr, A time 3.38 (it took her forever to fall a sleep  )
then 10.31 BF - went back fast, W 1.08 crying I gave her my hand and I fall a sleep (I can not believe that I reached that stage I was always light sleeper  ) I have heard her fussing but obviously she has episodes of sleeping... then 2.51 BF I put her back she was trying to fall a sleep holding me for the hand and she would succeed for maybe ten minutes and then everything from the beginning. Of course after 1 hr and something she started to cry, I tried to help her (read previous post  ) but nothing helped, she became hyper, and now I have my coffee and she is in her crib tired, little fussing then playing with paci... I tried to do AP and hold her to fall a sleep - no way... so as described in the post above I need to wait particular moment and do AP so she could fall a sleep  everything already seen many times 

[becj86]

I presume your night feeds are done in the dark, no interaction with her? If not, then that could be why she's waking more at that 3ish feed. Do you feel you have more milk at the 3ish feed than other feeds? Its possible she has to wake more to deal with the extra flow of milk, as your supply will be highest at that time...

Your day looks pretty good, I'd maybe have gone for bedtime at 7 rather than 7:30 after the 1hr nap but in general doesn't look too bad. Are you doing set A times, set naps, going completely from cues? Just trying to think of a reason for the nap lengths to be so variable.

I am thinking to cut that second nap if would pass 4 pm, what do you think?

This is a good plan - just make sure your A time after the shorter nap is not more than 3hr and that she gets to sleep at least 45min, so if she goes to sleep at 3:30, wake her at 4:15 rather than 4 and bedtime can still be 7/7:15.

[tweetie]

Thank you bec 
Yes feeding at 3 am is completely in the dark. Regarding supply - I am not sure because my breasts are not swollen anymore - everything is regulated (sorry my english but I hope YKWIM?). During the day I could see that there is plenty of milk (I have strong let down, she is easily distracted and the milk is everywhere  ).

BT- well that is tricky with her. I put her in bed aiming to 7 but my wishes and aims are one thing and reality another  . In general I put her 15 min before predicted sleeping time and more or less it works during the day (yesterday it did not). In the morning she goes so predictable, afternoon it gets harder and at evening of course even harder... That is the reason why BT looks like that...
Before I could read her cues but since she was 6 months old it became tricky... She is getting bored very fast (A time is getting challenging for me  ) and starts rubbing her eyes, fussing even crying if I do not jump immediately (sometimes).... Cues are easier to read after bad night because you could exactly see she is sleepy and cranky... So at this time point I am guided by the clock; or for example yesterday she was not in the good mood and wanted to be carried. In the morning I put her in Baby Bjorn (for 20 min) and doing my things and saw at 3 hr A time point that she is "done" and put her in crib - she fell a sleep in a sec.

She is spirited baby - I am very careful with her A time avoiding overstimulation (my DH and everybody around me things I am obsessive mother  and exaggerate ). What I see - she has definitely soothing  problem but this night I am surprised how much she was trying but obviously she could not. I am doing GW but we are stuck on that hand, in the night she holds it so tight - I see she needs me ... She is very connected to me (I am on maternity leave we are together whole day so it is natural) and when my mother is taking care of her (twice per week 2 hr for my yoga class) she could be pretty cranky and then she wants me to hold her for a while... I play peek a boo with her... if we are whole day alone (my DH works a lot) no matter on her mood (good or bad) days and nights are more predictable IYKWIM? During the day I can feel her and read her I could say pretty well but nights....

[becj86]

Yeah, she reads like a spirited little one - so is my boy

I would say you could maybe try lying back a bit to feed for that 3am feed - might just help her cope with the flow and maybe now wake quite so much.

Is she teething or anything at all? Any separation anxiety? These things can make night wakings last longer than usual and even make them more frequent - they will pass.

I wonder if she's having more trouble self-settling later in the day due to OT? Or maybe she's just a normal kind of tired but not coping so well with transitions from activity to sleep as the day goes on? What do you think? DS used to do better at settling to sleep if I gave him a toy/item from his last activity when he went to bed, so if he was playing with a particular thing, I'd carry him to bed while he was holding said item and he'd play with it for a bit and then drop off to sleep when he was ready.

[tweetie]

thank you very much bec

I apologize but I just want to make sure (ah foreigners   ) when you said lay back you mean to continue? I did not have intention to remove that - yet  In addition I think I did not completely understand when you said that maybe she wakes because there is no interaction with her during night feeds? 

She got two teeth when she was 5.5 months old. After that I do not see any change on gums. She does put hands into mouth and toys etc... Separation anxiety - I started to notice that when she was 5 months old and now is pretty strong.
I am aware that these NW will pass - the thing that started to bother me that particular that NW is persistent from the middle of September - I think that till today maybe we had (big maybe) 20 nights without it 

Sometimes she is OT but I would not say each time. Transition is definitely her problem,I do not know what else I could do to help her.
In general our wind down looks like that: bath (she likes it very much and it relaxes her), then we come to the room, turn on music, she gets some toy if she wants (simple one like soft small animal), I put her on my bed and she plays quietly, calm down (not yesterday and today  , she is rolling over, putting her legs in the air...), and then I hold her give her paci tells her it is time to sleep and put her in the crib. She is playing, in the good mood and then after a while she starts fussing, become restless, holding me for the hand and knead it . Then tries to fall a sleep then fussing sometimes crying if it takes long, start trashing her hands and goes into circle until finally falls a sleep.
 
I could do AP - holding her in my arms - then probably we would be able to catch regular BT but I would like to teach her to sleep independently. 

Today we did AP in the morning - she slept 2 hr in the stroller, afternoon in the crib (I hold her in my arms to fall a sleep) -3.15 and I woke her at 4.20 pm and now she still holds me for the hand awake (7.43)...

[becj86]

I think I did not completely understand when you said that maybe she wakes because there is no interaction with her during night feeds

No, some people talk to their babies when they get them up for a night feed and chat through the feed and wonder why LO is more awake after the feed than before Keeping interaction to a minimum is good.

when you said lay back you mean to continue? I did not have intention to remove that - yet

Must have missed where you said you do this - its to help with the letdown...

she gets some toy if she wants (simple one like soft small animal)

This can be overstimulating for a spirited LO - most spirited LO's do best with a very boring lovey like a square of light fabric rather than something with eyes

Also sounds like you're putting her down a little too early - she's undertired when she gets into bed and not quite ready enough for sleep but becomes overtired because she's taking a while to fall asleep.

[tweetie]

Thank you very much bec  .
I give her small animal because she is not interested in any kind of cloth material before bad time, only wire from headphones, iphones 

Yes I did put her down earlier wanting to meet BT and then obviously got OT, smart I  and my logic .

Last night she did not wake for feed at regular 10.30 pm, instead she slept by 1 am - feed, then she started to roll over in the crib and became hyper. I took her in my arms and she fell a sleep around 2 am, W 4.10 am - I resettled with my hand, 5.40 - feed,  back to sleep; started the day 7.30 am.
 

[becj86]

Anything developmental going on? That rolling around hyper sounds like her brain's going really fast and she's having trouble switching off.

[tweetie]

She started to roll over all over the floor two weeks ago. I put her on the floor a lot just she is not always interested (in the past she hated tummy time) depending on her mood (and how much sleep she got). Last few nights she started to roll over in the crib. Today she is whole day at the floor (my DH is at home) practicing. The second nap - she could not fall a sleep and after half an hour I did AP because 4.15 pm was close and I wanted her to catch some sleep....In general her brain is going very fast constantly but these rolling looks like really she is forced and forced to roll poor thing 

[tweetie]

I am back  . Since she is already awake for 2.5 hr and does not have intention to sleep (we are on the last stage - I put her in my arms) I have few questions:
1. her naps are weird - first one - she started to sleep very long (day before yesterday more than 2 hr and yesterday 1.45 hr and then I woke her up because I do not want her to take a second around 5 pm). Second nap - I started to cap it few days ago as suggested after 4.15 pm otherwise she won't fall a sleep before 8 or 8.30 pm.... I do not want to mess with naps and make things even worse so I wanted to hear your opinion. Super EBT never worked for her.

2. Her A time is weird. Obviously something developmental is going on but how to have routine if she wakes i.e. around noon or 12.30 pm, there is no way she will sleep before 3.30 or even 3.45 and I will wake her at 4.15?

3. Another thing that started to frustrate me (I need to admit  ) is that after that short second nap I need to put her earlier in bed and in general aiming BT around 7. How to do that if I am in the vicious cycle? If I put her too early she is UT, then at the end is OT and fall a sleep late. If I put her later she falls a sleep again later and again OT (too long A time).

I was thinking maybe to do AP lets say so at 3 pm an 7 pm and after few days see how it will go? I know that my sleep training will be gone with the wind  but I am trying to find solution.... Or maybe just leave everything as it is and look how it will continue within next few days? Sorry for complicating but I am really confused after so much reading on this forum 

After 2.40 hr my arms did magic and the beast  fell a sleep.
Thank you.