Twins- habitual night waking

[katie80]

Hi hon, sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you!

I agree, early NWs are most often OT.  They can also be from temperature, digestive uncomfortableness, or teething. My guess is that you're dealing with some OT (as even when Elijah did a straight night, he only slept 10hr, which would be another indicator of OT) and likely teething pain.  Have you tried giving any other meds, like Tylonel or Motrin?  I understand if you don't want to use them too much, but they sure can help when teething is rough.  What have your last few days looked like?  Maybe we can find out where OT might be sneaking in.

[Beweakley]

Thank you both for responding.  I ended up giving both boys a bit of Tylenol last night since they were fussy all day.  Even with that on board, Everett woke throughout the night whimpering and crying. Once Elijah fell asleep the second time, he was out...didn't even acknowledge hearing Everett through the monitor.  Our day still looks about the same with the exception that I backed down the A time a few minutes because the boys were falling asleep in the living room!  I did change things a little yesterday because they got up at 5:30.  So they went to bed at 6:45 as a result.  That was their earliest bedtime yet.  So far, this is the track we're on today; it's the same as before. 

 

6:15ish wake and play, sippy
7:30 breakfast-cereal, fruit, yogurt
Resume play until 9:15
9:30 5-6 oz. milk- bottles
9:40 nap
11:00 wake and play, sippy
12:00 lunch- fruit, veggie
Resume play until 1:45
1:45 5-6 oz. milk- bottles
2:00 nap
3:15 wake and play
4:15 4-5 oz. sippy of milk
Resume play
5:30 supper- fruit, veggies, offer sippy of milk
6:00 walk outside/ play
6:30 baths, books
7:00 5-6 oz. milk- bottles
7:15ish bedtime

I agree they're OT because they've been reluctant to finish their naps and they're showing signs of being tired before we get to bed.  I know going from two hours of A time to three was a big jump.  It seems like they can barely get to three so anything more is really pushing it. I tried to hold them off a bit longer this morning hoping to get closer to the 7:30 bedtime instead of the 6:45 time. I've  had to get pretty inventive in the evenings to keep them up until close to 7:00.  Last night my husband was holding Elijah while i put Everett's pjs on and i heard him say, "hurry hon, Elijah's starting to nest!" and sure enough i look over and he's trying to go to sleep on Willie's chest which never happens unless he's exhausted.  So, the first A time today was 3 hrs. 25 minutes.  The second A time was 3 hours and this last A time will run close to 3 hrs and 45 minutes as I try to get closer to 7:00.  Any suggestions?

[Beweakley]

Well, we didn't make it to 7:00.  I just got them down at 6:45.  Hope that doesn't bite me in the morning with another EW.  Yuck.

[katie80]

How did the night go?  I always think it's better to put them down when they're ready for BT, as pushing them tends to make them OT, which often makes the night worse.  Your BT is going to be naturally earlier for a little bit, since you cut out the 3rd nap.  Most LOs will make up for the lost sleep at night, but not all.  Have you ever tried an early BT?  From your routine yesterday, I would've gone for 6:30 or even 6:15. Even if they still wake up at 6:00-6:15 in the morning, they're getting a much better night's sleep and will be better able to make the longer A times during the day.

So, the first A time today was 3 hrs. 25 minutes.  The second A time was 3 hours and this last A time will run close to 3 hrs and 45 minutes as I try to get closer to 7:00.  Any suggestions?

I know they've had a big jump in A times, and that can take a little while to settle in, but these are much more appropriate for their age.  I still think the second A time needs to be a bit longer, closer to 3.5hr (you don't have to go there all in one jump, just by 15min or so every couple days), because that nap isn't a full one and then you're ending up with that really long A til BT.  I always think it works out a bit better if the A times are more even throughout the day.

(((Hugs))), hope those teeth come through quick for you!

[Beweakley]

Well, last night was hellish and probably not a good night to measure anything by.  Everett woke every 45 minutes screaming and crying.  Then Elijah woke at 10:30 while Everett was crying too.  I ended up with both of them in my bed sleeping on my chest until my husband got home from work.  He put Elijah back in his crib and unfortunately I kept Everett just so we could all get some sleep.  He would scream the second I put him down and has done the same thing at all of his naps today.  He's so miserable and that was with a dose of Tylenol.  As a result today's been off a bit too because he's not sleeping more than an hour at any nap.  And again our A times have been inconsistent.  Tomorrow I'm going to do everything I can to get to that 3.5 mark at each A time.  I know they can do it because they stay awake longer when we go out.  If I have to we'll run a few errands during their A times tomorrow to get us closer to our goal. 

[katie80]

(((Hugs))), that does sound like teeth.  Poor boys (and mama)!  Have you ever tried Motrin or Advil?  I found (and I know this has been true for other moms on here) that ibuprofen seems to relieve the teething pain a little better and for longer.  It might be worth a try at BT.

They also might struggle to go too much longer for A times while teething, as it can make them more tired.  Just push carefully, and see what happens.

Hope tonight is better!

[Beweakley]

Thanks for the advice on the motrin.  I'll give that a try tomorrow.  I tried the Tylenol again tonight to see if it would get any better.  Any tips on giving it?  Previous use has never been a problem, but they are hating to take it now.  They've never had many meds... Only a dose when they get their shots and that's it.  They always took it with no problem, but it was a fight tonight.  They kept trying to spit it out and make a mess that I gave it to them while they were in the bath.  I was hoping fun bath time would distract them from it...it didn't work.   . Oh, and I guess teeth also bring with them runny noses? Ggrrrr....

[Beweakley]

A much, much better night last night.  Everett only woke a couple of times crying and stopped almost as quick as he started.  I never went in there.  Elijah still woke at 12:15 and was awake until about 1:15.  But this was still a mini victory because it was a shorter time than normal and he put himself back to sleep with only me talking to him.  Granted, i did a lot of talking and trying to encourage him but thats still better than the norm. He woke again at 5:00 and once again I talked to him a little and he went back to sleep after a short time.  I don't actually know what time he went back to sleep, but I know it was too long. Maybe twenty minutes or so.  I'm thinking there's a couple patterns developing with his wakings.  I might try wake to sleep tonight with one of those times.  Today's goal: consistent A times of 3.5.  They woke at 6:15 this morning so we'll be heading for a nap around 9:45.  I'll let you know how it goes today.

[katie80]

So glad the night was better!   Do keep me posted...

As for meds, I've heard of moms putting it in the last bottle of the day, that way they don't taste it as much and you don't have to deal with the syringe.  I've also heard of doing it in the bath as you did.  I usually just try to put it in the side of their mouth by the cheek toward the back and squeeze, but it can still come out if they don't want it.  You could also try another flavor... my DS would spit it out right away if I gave him cherry flavor acetaminophen, but did fine with grape.   Another benefit of maybe trying ibuprofen is that it supposedly tastes better.  My dad is an ER doc and says they use ibuprofen in kids whenever appropriate and possible because they tend to take it better.

[Beweakley]

I swear I can't get two good nights in a row! Or more than one good night in a week.  I gave both boys ibuprofen last night.  We had a great day with consistent A times, great naps and went to bed right on time.  Elijah woke at 12:15 and was up until 2:00.  At which time I was shush patting and realized his entire sheet was wet from snotting  and slobbering all over it.  tired of fighting with him and realizing he was uncomfortable from teething, I put him in the bed with me.  We might've actually slept really well until Everett decided to wake up at 5:30.  Yuck!  I go back to work in three weeks and I'm going to lose my mind if they're not sleeping any better by then.  There's no way I'll be able to teach and function at school like this especially since I won't get any nap during the day.  Today they've been fussy but we've ad consistent times again today.  Looking forward to a better night.

[Beweakley]

Last night was bad too.  I thought it was going smoothly...I did wake to sleep to keep Elijah from waking just after midnight, success! But the he woke at 2:38 and stayed up off and on until almost 5:00!  He was gassy and struggling with a runny nose.  I'm going to remove green beans from his diet for a week and see if that helps.  To make matters worse Everett woke again at 5:30.  I couldn't function on a half hour of sleep at that point.  I brought him into the bed with me where we dozed off and on until 7:10. 

I don't get it.  Elijah used to wake only once now it's twice or one really long time.  He gets plenty of attention from me during the day so it's not like he enjoys the time in the middle of the night.  And i know he's teething, but really?  I've been dealing with this for five months!  We're both miserable in the MOTN. 

[katie80]

Oh (((hugs))), hon. I'm sorry the bad nights keep coming. . Is your DH not able to help with one boy, so you can get a little more sleep?

Are you willing to give Elijah a second dose of meds when he wakes? I'm wondering if you gave it at 2:30/3am and cuddled him for 20-30min then he's go back to sleep better for the rest of the night.

Are the days still going well?

[Beweakley]

Well, I read in Tracy's long interview that teething only lasts for three nights in a row.  If that's the case then Elijah's third night is tonight, and it makes sense that Everett's had fairly good nights (these last two) except for the EW.  DH is unable to help because of work and since I'm off from work for the summer I'm more available and can function without a lot of sleep. Not well, but I function.

I'm willing to try giving Elijah a second dose if that will help.  Is it possible that he needs less sleep? I'm hesitant to even think that because he's always so ready for his naps and typically is the one I have  to wake up.  he always seems tired.  in fact he's fussy right now and content to sit in my lap.  He'd got to bed right now if I let him and he's only been up since 7:10.

The days have been okay.  I've managed to keep consistent A times.  Although I don't know about today since we got up a little later.  If I do 3.5 hours of A time  then that puts their second nap a lot later in the day with a later bedtime.  Not sure if I need to do that or try to cut it back a bit.  7:30 seems like their ideal time but I need some advice as to how to achieve that. 

Oh, and Elijah just fell asleep in my lap. This never happens.  He seems desperate for it today which makes sense since last night was bad.

Any advice on the EWs?  I really appreciate all of your help.  Pretty sure I'd have gone crazy by now without it. 

[katie80]

More (((hugs))) hon.  I know it's different when you're at home, but with two kids sometimes something has to give.  Could he get up with Everett and 5:30 and try to get him back to sleep?  That's still a pretty full night for an adult.   Hopefully, he can at least help out a bit on the weekend. 

Is it possible that he needs less sleep? I'm hesitant to even think that because he's always so ready for his naps and typically is the one I have  to wake up.  he always seems tired. 

Yes, it's possible he need less day time sleep.  He may always seem tired and be ready for his naps because he's up in the night.  But, then he makes up for it in his naps and is up again in the night.  It's a vicious cycle and one that's very common around this age.  That's why I asked for their EAS routines... would you post them for the last couple days?  It can be hard to tell when they're teething though, as it's hard to know exactly why they're waking in the MOTN.

As for today and the later start... you can always cap the second nap at 45min/1hr or wherever needed to keep with the same BT.  FX you get a better night tonight!

[Beweakley]

You're right it's vicious!! So, here's our EAS for the last couple of days....


Wednesday:

A 6:15
E sippy 6:30
E solids 7:45
E bottles 9:35
S 9:45
A 11:15
E 12:00 sippy
E 1:30 solids
E 2:35 bottles
S 2:45
A 4:15
E 4:45 sippy
E 6:00 solids
   7:15 baths, books
E 7: 45 bottles
S 8:00 (that's the first night I gave ibuprofen and Elijah was up from 12:15-2:00- he ended up in the bed with me after slobbering all over his sheets. Everett sept sound from 8:00-5:30)


Thursday

A 5:30
E 5:45 sippy
E 7:00 solids
S 8:45
A 10:30
E 10:45 sippy
E 12:00 solids
E bottles 2:10
S 2:15
A 3:30
E sippy 4:00
E solids 5:30
   6:30 baths, books
E 7:00 bottles
S 7:20 ( both had ibuprofen before bed- Everett was asleep within a couple of minutes.  Elijah had a harder time settling in.  Did WTS with success at 11:45, he woke at 2:38 and was very awake until about four and then dozed off and on waking several more times until 5:00.  Didn't get him out of the crib..just shush pat-- Everett woke at 5:30-- we dozed until about 7:10)

Friday

A 7:10
E 7:20 sippy
E 8:45 solids
E 10:40 bottles
S 10:55
A 12:20
E sippy 12:45
E solids 2:15
E bottles 3:50
S 3:55
A 4:40 elijah woke on his own at this time and clearly wasn't happy about it.  I used it as a way to get back on track.  So, I got them both up and we went to a friend's for a visit.
E 5:55 sippy
S 6:45 for about 15 minutes they fell asleep in the truck on the way home
A 7:00 arrive home
E 7:20 solids
   7:35 baths
E 8:00 bottles
S 8:10 Everett's asleep in a couple minutes, Elijah struggled and fell asleep after a few shush pats around 8:30

I haven't heard a peep out of either boy since they fell asleep.  I also didn't medicate either one since neither acted fussy today.  If Elijah's wakes and appears to be in pain then I'll give him a MOTN dose.  I'm also going to try WTS again tonight with Elijah at 11:45 again since that was successful last night. I would do other times too if I thought it would help, but I can't predict what other times he'll wake.

I think I'm gonna head to bed too.  Hopefully we'll have a better night.  Lord knows we are due one!!
I know I wrote a lot. Thanks for taking the time to examine our schedules and for helping us!