2-1 transition worries (and we haven't even really started yet!)

[ecwinters]

Hello!

My DS is 16 months and showing signs of needing to go to 1 nap during the day. 

I am wondering if anyone who has been through this can possibly give me some advice please?  I started trying to transition from 2-1 naps about 2 weeks ago, by capping the first nap to 40/45 mins.  I did this for over a week but DS didn't lengthen out his 2nd nap (as I'd hoped) - bedtime crept earlier to make up for the loss of daytime sleep - and wake ups in the morning became earlier too   Then he got ill and so I let him go back to his usual hour in the morning.  And now we are back to this:

WU: between 5-6am (I get him up at 6)
Nap 1: 9:30-10:30 (wake him up)
Nap 2: 2:20-3:40 at the latest (I wake him up here anyway, so sometimes he only gets two, 1 hour naps).
Bedtime: No later than 7pm.  He is normally asleep by 7:15pm.

But I know he won't do this forever as he'd started to massively play around for the 2nd nap (which is why we cut the 1st nap originally!).  I'm not sure whether his early waking is OT or just because he's had enough sleep.  On days where he gets 2 hours and 20 minutes in the day, I don't ever expect him to do an 11 hour night as he normally caps his sleep at 13 hours (in a 24 hour period).  I'd LOVE him to do more, but that's just the way he is

So, my new plan is to push out the morning nap, which might suit him better as he hates a long A time to bedtime, and gradually cap the afternoon nap.  It sounds simple, but I'm getting myself all confused about it!!!   We did a similar thing for the 3-2 transition but his A times are all different now.  It was quite messy though and took AGES!

If I pushed the 1st nap later by just 15 minutes (to 9:45am), should I let him sleep for longer or still give him 1 hour?  I plan to do 15 minutes every few days as he likes things to be gradual!  Also, would I need to move the 2nd nap later too, or do you think he'd be OK going down at the same time as before? 

If I need to move out the 2nd nap as well, then he'd really only have the time to do two 1 hour naps in the day or bedtime will get even later.  His bedtime is pretty much always between 6:30-7pm unless I need to put him down really early and he does better with slightly earlier bedtimes.   Also then his day would be even longer!  But I've also read that pushing out the 1st nap makes them sleep later in the mornings - does anyone have any positive experiences of this?  The latest I can EVER remember DS sleeping (since he was newborn) is 6:15am!

Any other advice would be very appreciated!  Thank you.

[jessmum46]

Essentially you need to keep one nap long and choose which to cap.  If you want to keep a long morning nap then you let him sleep as long as he wants (up to 2h) and then do another full (or nearly-full) A time - depends if he'll go down a bit UT - and do a short second nap, and short A to bedtime.  At this age DDs routine was

WU 6.30
Nap 10.30-12
Nap 4/4.30 for 30-45 mins depending on exactly when it happened
BT 7, usually asleep by 7.30

You do run the risk as he tends to be up early that the long morning nap will perpetuate that, but if you consistently push the nap later and limit daytime sleep by cutting that second nap to a catnap hopefully the mornings will start to improve  

It's worth noting with this approach that pm nap refusal is a common problem - in which case make very good use of EBT if he tacks on well!!  Or if that is a total fail, you can always switch round to a short am, long pm nap (often the better approach for early wakers or pm nap refusers) until he is properly ready to make the jump.  Oh and just for encouragement - both of mine had EW phases pre-2-1 but both sleep until a reasonable time now we are past that (or at least stay in bed quietly and don't wake me!!)

[ecwinters]

Thanks - this is very helpful!

Your DD's routine is really what I'm aiming to get to.  So, am I right that she woke by about 5pm and then her A time to bed was about 2 hours/2 hour 30 minutes?  I'm not sure what DS's A time would be after a short PM catnap. I guess I just need to experiment! 

Did you just keep bedtime the same even if her catnap varied slightly?

DS has always been an early riser - but I'm happy to hope that he may sleep later once on 1 nap! EBT works well with DS too, so that's OK.  I wanted to do the short AM - long PM thing originally but he likes his AM sleep too much 

Just one thing - I don't want to suddenly push out his AM nap by half an hour so will do 15 minutes I think first.  Should I still cap it at an hour, or let him do slightly longer?  And, as this means there is less time for a longer PM nap, it's going to end up being only an hour if I'm going to wake him up at his usual time. 

WU: between 5-6am
Nap 1: 9:45-10:45??? 
Nap 2: 2:35-??? 
Bedtime: No later than 7pm.  He is normally asleep by 7:15pm.

What do you think?  Thanks so much!

[jessmum46]

So, am I right that she woke by about 5pm and then her A time to bed was about 2 hours/2 hour 30 minutes? 

Yes exactly the short A time after 2 longer ones seemed to suit her just fine.  We didn't vary bedtime a lot, it was always 6.30-7pm, most often 7pm when we were in this stage of the 2-1. 

If you are keeping the long morning nap then don't wake him at all, just let him sleep as long as he wants.  Providing it's a decent length nap then give him another full A time or near enough and then wake him up from the second nap if you need to preserve bedtime.  Remember you don't necessarily have to wake him by 3.40pm - that may be the case after a long nap to allow enough A time, but as you can see from my DDs routine after a shorter catnap he will likely be happy to go to bed after a shorter A time.  So just as an example your day could be something like:

WU 5-6am
Nap 9.45-11.15/30/45 (I'd wake at 2h if he gets that far)
Nap 3/3.30ish for 45 mins or so
BT by 7pm

[ecwinters]

Thanks that makes sense.  He doesn't like being woken up from his morning sleep - not sure how long he'd do if I let him sleep - maybe 1 hour 20/30 minutes - I'll have to see!  If he did that, he could definitely do a 4 hour A before nap 2.

At the moment, I'm still putting him down at 9:30-10:30 and then about 2:20-whenever (3:40 maximum).  When would I change this?  It's so hard to tell, as he gets days when he plays around a bit for nap 2 (but always goes down eventually) - and he is still going down happily at 9:30/35 for nap 1.  He's never skipped a nap. He wakes early some days, but not others - so it's inconsistent.  Do I wait until he starts resisting going down at 9:30am?  I know he's late going to 1 nap really (he'll be 17 months on the 23rd August) but he was late going to 2 naps, so it kind of makes sense!

Thanks very much!

[jessmum46]

If it's working for now don't change it - the time to change is when you run into problems, either early waking, nap resistance or bedtime refusal x

[ele]

I just wanted to share my experience which I think can be helpful.

Around 16 months I had to move my DD to one nap. I felt that there was just not enough day time to give her 2 naps without constantly waking her up. Intuitively I knew, She was waking up underslept all the time, especially like your boy from her 1 st nap (one caveat, she never would go to sleep easily next time if she was not tired enough, so taking that 2nd nap was becoming a struggle for us too, her 1 st nap was easy though)
 
It was stressful to do that in just one shot from 4 hrs A to 6 hrs A, because I didn't want to rush before 18 months and I was always panicked about OT. But then...we tried to keep her up for 6 hours (slightly less if she didn't wake up in the morning happy) and put her to bed for nap and it got extended to 2 hours in just a few days.... We did some early night bedtime when she looked too tired but it was very quick. We never looked back at 2 naps. Just made little tweaks around 1 nap schedule.

It was so easy, I could not believe, the easiest transition for us. She was rested during day and night.

[ecwinters]

If it's working for now don't change it - the time to change is when you run into problems, either early waking, nap resistance or bedtime refusal x

We kind of have early waking - he normally does just slightly less than an 11 hour night but this may be what he needs with over 2 hours sleep in the day.  But this is definitely my DS:

She was waking up underslept all the time, especially like your boy from her 1st nap

Yesterday when I went in to wake him up from his first nap, he lay back down and said 'night night'!!!  Then cried when I got him up.  I felt really bad but I just can't let the day get longer than 13 hours really or he won't get enough night sleep. 

Bedtime is fine - we sometimes get nap resistance for nap 2 (but only for about 20 minutes) and he goes down eventually.  So, it's mainly just the schedule thing, and not being enough hours in the day!  At the moment it would be hard to push his 1st nap as he goes down in 5 minutes of being in his cot - he's really tired.  This is after about a 4 hour A time depending on when he's woken up.  I may try letting him sleep for longer in the morning, and then only giving him an hour in the afternoon to see if that makes him happier - he prefers his morning sleep.  What do you think?

I'm glad the 2-1 transition was so easy for you though, Ele.  I think DH would love to go cold turkey but I think DS wouldn't cope with it particularly well!

Thanks both of you.

[ecwinters]

Just to say that giving him a longer 1st nap didn't really work with our current A time.

He did a 1 hour 10/15 minute 1st nap and woke happy...but I couldn't get an hour out of him for nap 2.  He went down fine after just under 4 hours A time, but only did 45/50 minutes - was just not tired enough I don't think.  He was quite happy when I got him up but I'll have to give him a slightly earlier bedtime tonight and hope he does more than an 11 hour night to catch up a bit. 

Maybe the longer 1st nap will only work if he goes down a bit later - and then a shorter 2nd nap will be OK as it will be closer to bedtime anyway? 

it was nice not to have to wake him up from either nap today though

[jessmum46]

Yes I think you will have to extend the first A time to get a properly long first nap.  I wouldn't do an early bedtime particularly on that day, that was about our standard from 8 months on!!

[ecwinters]

He was fine with the slightly EBT and slept for over 11 hours, in fact I had to wake him up! But I don't like doing it too often as sometimes he then shifts to even earlier waking.

So, I pushed the 1st nap out by 15 minutes yesterday:

WU-6:00 ish
Nap 1-9:45-11:00 (woke up on his own)
Nap 2-2:50-3:40/45 (he woke up and then resettled but I went in and got him up anyway to keep bedtime at a normal time).  I guess I'm going to have to experiment with the A time between nap 2 and bedtime now the nap is shorter.   He doesn't do well with later bedtimes even if he's had a bit more sleep in the day so I like to keep bedtime before 7.

Night was fine and he woke up at 5 to six this morning, so I will try the same thing as yesterday again today.
 
Thanks again for your help.

[jessmum46]

That's great, keep moving forwards

[ecwinters]

Hello
Just checking back in (probably for reassurance really!)

We've now got days like this:
WU - between 5:30/6am
Nap 1 - 9:45-11:15 (wakes up on his own)
Nap 2 - I put him in his cot about 3pm but he plays around A LOT!  Sometimes he's had time for 45 minutes before I have to wake him but yesterday he didn't go down until 3:45pm and so I only gave him until about 4:20pm.
Bedtime - 6:30pm ish depending on nap 2 (but I've been doing 2-2.5 A time) and then he has been asleep by 7.

Do you reckon it's time to push nap 1 out to 10am?  At the moment he's lying in his cot laughing and talking and so not sleeping!!!  I feel a bit mean.  He'll be 17 months on Tuesday so he should be nearly there (in terms of age).  DH reckons we should try:

WU - between 5:30/6am
Nap 1 - 10:00-11:30 (or longer if he'll do it)
Nap 2 - sometime after 3:30pm for 30 minutes
Bedtime - 6:30pm ish (2 hours after waking up from nap 2)

Do you think a 2 hour A time after a 30 minute nap is too little?  He never goes to sleep straight away so it could end up being between 2 hours-2.5 hours anyway.

Any comments would be really appreciated.  How quickly do you push out nap 1?  Or does it just depend on how it's going?  I get really worried about OT nights making his EWUs worse as he's really sensitive to that, but can't see another solution now unfortunately.  It may just be time to go for it.

Thanks so much!

[ecwinters]

Update: he refused to sleep (he's actually never refused a sleep - well, not since we transitioned to 2 naps).  So, I got him up, gave him a quick play in the garden, tea and then he was in bed by 5:30pm!  Asleep by 5:55pm.  Will be interesting to see what happens tonight - he's NEVER been awake for that long in his life (6 hours and 40 minutes) 

[jessmum46]

I would get on with moving the morning nap forwards.  If you are getting nap refusal in the pm I would be tempted to just get on with the transition now given his age - I'd be more cautious if he were younger but since he's a sensible age for one nap I think he will probably handle it ok.  I would aim for 15 mins later morning nap every 3-4 days.  Once you get it to around 11.30am you will probably manage most days with just the one and an early bedtime x