help, tired father facing divorce unless we get some sleep

[yaya]

johnc, just wanted to let u know that my LO has  bottle at night, I really dont think ALL babies sleep through at this age!!
Congratulations to u for all ur hard work,  keep reading the posts on the BW website, they r very helpful!
Pu/Pd really worked for us as DS was used to falling asleep in our arms after being really unwell and being in hospital (where we tied to do whatever it took to make him feel comfortable!)

How r u getting on?

[johnc]

hello again lucy,

havent tried the bottle before bath, but he has his tea at 4.30 and thought it would be too soon for bottle if before bath i.e 6.30'ish.

whats your routine if you have time???

[LucyA]

Hi John,
Our routine is roughly this:
7 wake & breastfeed
8.15 solids
Activity
10 nap - 1 hour
11.15 breastfeed
Activity
12.15 solids
Activity
2.30 breastfeed
3.00 nap - 1 hour
4.00 Activity
5.00 solids
6.00 bath
6.20 breastfeed
7.00 bed

As you can see, we don't do EAS exactly, but he's not ready for a second nap until around 2.30/3, and if I don't feed him beforehand he won't sleep for long. Until 2 nights ago he was having a feed anywhere between 11pm and 2am. He only dropped to 1 night feed a couple of weeks ago.
When did your ds stop night feeds? He may need them again for a while - how much solid food does he eat?
What about a nappy change after his last feed to wake him up a bit?

[Katet]

John, I'd offer 1/2 the bottle before the bath & then the rest after so he does get most of it in. Or you could just give him it until he starts to get sleepy, but it sort of depends how much he is taking... when my ds#2 (almost 1yo) used to fall asleep while bf, I started offering 1/2 before & 1/2 after & it was about that time that he started doing a much longer stretch at night.

As the real issue you need to address first before he is going to sleep longer is NOT about food, but about him going to sleep without the bottle as a "prop", if he doesn't take much, short term I wouldn't worry... feeding him up with lots of food is NOT going to help him sleep better until you help him learn good falling asleep skills. His sleep problems may be in part hunger but I'd put that to be about 20% of the problem, the other 80% is due to him "learning" that how he falls asleep is to suck on a bottle.

If it was me I'd offer the bottle before bath & then a top up after, but the moment he starts to look relaxed & zoned out stop feeding & start bedtime... he most probably will protest, but don't we all when things change & we have to learn something new. So at that point you do what you need to, to get him to sleep (with out the bottle)... for me it would be pat him off in the cot. BTW when you think oh this crying is way to much, someone gave a great suggestion on another post... slowly start counting to 20 & often it will subside, the crying seems to get worse before it gets better.
HTH

[napcat]

John, my advice would be to get the book 'Baby Whisperer Solves all your problems' as Tracy deals with sleep issues like yours in great detail and it is less confusing with all the info in one place. My husband and I basically didn't sleep for 4 months - our son had no routine and we kept him up really late. I gradually got him onto an EASY routine and worked REALLY hard on
1. extending daytime naps
2. making sure he was not overtired and starting windown as SOON as he got tired
3. the hardest - putting him asleep awake (in the past we would rock him for about 2 hours)
4. sticking to a routine

Until recently he would never nap longer than 45 mins and would wake 3 - 5 times in the night

PU/PD sounds terrible but it works. I found the book was especially helpful here as Tracy teaches you about babies' sleep cycles and tells you what cues to look for - e.g. when my son cried in his bed I was holding him way too long and restraining him when he burrowed his head against me - by putting him down sooner he has learned to put himself to sleep (with me rubbing his back)

You sound like a very involved dad (like my DH) with a chronically overtired baby - but THINGS WILL GET BETTER!!!

Good luck

[johnc]

hi folks,

we really appreciate all your help and concern and we will endevaour to implemant what ideas we can.

kate, we put our son down on saturday night awake, and fell asleep himself with no help or sushing, but still woke up every other hour or so.

we know this will take time but at the moment he is poorly with a cold and at night is struggling with his breathing, so instinct took over and we brought him in with us as he was really snotty, upset and that.

are we to ignore all these things and plough on regardless, or carry it on when we think he is up to it?

i know we are delaying the problem, please advise.

to napcat (sorry i didnt see your real name) where did you purchase the baby whisperer book ??

ps i might start walking round with driving learner plates on as thats how it feels at the moment....

[LucyA]

Hi John,
I would hold off with the sleep training while he's sick, another couple of days isn't going to make much difference.
That's fantastic that he fell asleep by himself, the rest will come, it does take time.
You should be able to get the bw books in most bookshops - are you in the UK? Or order off amazon:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0091902517/qid=1147252441/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_3_1/202-2095062-4158251
It's cheaper there. There are 3 books, but as napcat suggested, 'Solves All Your Problems' is the best, lots of detail re sleep problems at different ages.
Good luck, keep us posted. 

[Katet]

Absolutely hold off while he is sick, but if you can get him down at the start of the night in his cot then that will help you, then after if he wakes up I'd do what is easiest for you, it is a bit like learning to drive & actually doesn't happen quickly...at best I think it will probably take 2-3 weeks to get your little one sleeping reasonably well (& by that I mean 1-2 night wakings) the fact he fell asleep with no help once, doesn't a habit make, if that makes sense, he will (from my experience) need to be doing that every sleep for 3-4 days at the start of sleep time before the self settling between cycles takes place. Added to which the cold won't be helping him.
BTW it took me 3 weeks to get my ds back after 2 weeks of illness (waking almost hourly) & he was sleeping 10 hours before that for a couple of months.
Also developmental stuff will start entering too, so now it is really important to have "routines" in place that you can fall back on when rolling, pulling up & teeth start disrupting sleep.

[Sarah J]

hey there!

just wanted to put my 'two penneth' down....

my lo is now 8 months old and his routine is practically the same as yours.

the main difference is that we give a snack (something like rice cake or breadstick or fruit) at around 10.30.

we found that our babe (who had been sleeping well) started to wake between 10pm and midnight at aound six months, just after we introduced solid food.
if i bf him hw would then sleep through. if i didnt feed him he would take a while to settle and wake again at 2-4am. 
i figured he was hungry and increased his food through the day, adding more protein and pasta to make 'proper meals' rather than just fruit or veg. 
after some tweaking we also found that giving him his tea much later (around 6pm) seemed to fill him up for his long sleep. -giving him his tea later meant that we had to bring his lunch to 1pm or he was too starving by 6pm!

it has taken us a little while to find out what suits him - and some trial and error! the new timings dont fit that well with the nursery meals (they do tea at 4.30 - 5pm) but it does mean he gets his big long sleep.

i do wish you luck and send you all hugs.

[johnc]

hello all,

i am slowly moving through each section of this website as our little fella is getting older.....and finding it all a god send.

i have trailed through the FAQ's but not been able to pinpoint another question specific to us, so here goes....

we have implemented lots of things,but basically following the EASy rota.

using replies to our earlier posts on this site we increased our babied cat naps to 2-2,5hours each time, and subsequently are having to wake him from them as he would go longer if allowed.

so please help, should we be cutting his naps back OR allowing to sleep???

9.5months old,  EASY

     Wake : 5 - 5.30 am

Eat - 6-6.30am - bowl of porridge & drink of water

Activity - 6.30-8.30 ish

Eat - 9am - 4oz bottle

Sleep - 9 - 11/11.30 ish, would go longer if allowed

Eat - 12ish' solids - pasta and sauce/soup and bread/beans on toast etc & fruit for finger food (one apple or orange, usually thrown on the floor and waved at & yogurt for desert.

Activity - 12.30 - 2.00pm

Eat - 2pm 4oz bottle

Sleep - 2-2.30pm ish - 2 hours would go longer again if allowed.

Eat 4.30 pureed veg or fruit & yogurt

Activity - 5 - 7pm

Bed routine=

7pm bath
7.30pm 8 oz bottle
7.45-8ish' put awake in cot if somewhat drowsy.

wakings generally 1am, 4am (brought into our bed) wake at 5 ish

[LucyA]

Hi John,
Good to see you again, glad to see you've had some improvement! 
First, if you are happy with the current state of affairs, and baby is happy, don't change it.
Having said that, your ds is only sleeping about 9-9.5 hours overnight, and 4-5 during the day, right? So about 13-14 hours in 24 hours, which is about average I believe. If you want him to sleep a little longer at night, I think you do need to wake him earlier from one or both his naps.
For example, my ds (who is just a couple of weeks older than your guy) sleeps around 12 hours at night, and his first nap is just over an hour, and his second usually just under an hour. I know other babies this age often have a pretty short first nap (like 30 minutes) and then a nap of about 2 hours in the early afternoon.
If you try it, I would do it gradually, probably just for one nap at first.
With your night wakings, is he feeding at night, or does he resettle easily?
HTH

[johnc]

we had a lot to implement from the previous post before coming back, so hence the delay.

when he wakes at 1pm he goes straight back to sleep once his dummy is  relocated and put back in his mouth.

yet at 4pm, if we bring him in our bed, (which after a days hard work is easiest) he goes straight to sleep, but if left in cot he will wake every half our or so..

we just would like a nights sleep! nearly 10 months now and we still haven't had a nights sleep with out interuption. i hope that doesn't sound selfish!!!!

[LucyA]

Not selfish at all! I feel the same way - when I say my ds sleeps 12 hours at night, that still includes a couple of wakings, which at the moment I've lapsed back into feeding him at 
Two things jump out - if he can't get back to sleep without the dummy, maybe it's time to wean it. The ladies on the props board could help you there.
If he's waking at pretty much the same time each night, you could try wake to sleep.
I think limiting the naps will help with the early wakings.

[NrsT]

HAVE YOU TRIED TAKING DAIRY OUT OF YOUR WIFE'S DIET AND ALSO NOT GIVING HIM THE FROMAGE FRAIS? QUITE A BIT OF DAIRY IN THOSE AND I HAVE SEEN IT UPSET BABIES TERRIBLY, AFFECTING THEIR SLEEP.  ITS WORTH A TRY!!!
GOOD LUCK
NATALIE

[yaya]

can i just sympathisewith u johnc! We r at 9 monthswith very few full nights sleep! its soo exhausting not to mention demoralising.just wish i could say 'hes sleeping thru now' instead of going to bed dreading night time!