It just got worse ....

[MommaHolmes]

I'm just going to throw this thought out there (and many apols if it sounds a bit hardline!)

Do you think that he cries when you don't give him milk at 5am because he is SOOO hungry that it makes him scream? Or do you think he cries when you don't give him milk because he likes having milk then, that is what he is used to, and crying/screaming for long enough usually results in him getting milk?

I know the sensation of feeling hungry can be irritating but I find it hard to imagine that a LO of his age who is eating and drinking well during the day feels as though he is genuinely starving (i.e. hungry enough to scream to get food) at that time in the morning. Even if he *feels* like that, you know he's far from starving and you won't be damaging him in the slightest by making him wait.

I think if you can stick to your guns (as thoroughly unpleasant as it is to have to withhold something from your child that you know will stop them from crying) and have a 'no milk before 6' (or 6:30 or whatever is your preferred earliest time to start your day), then his body will have the chance to readjust to not *expect* (as opposed to *need*) nourishment before that time.

Once you have the first bottle of the day, and therefore wake up, at a reasonable hour, you can then start putting a bit of space in between wake up and feeding. You could start with simply a nappy change first, then a few days later add in getting dressed or a little play time. That way you can extend the time at which his body is expecting food and *hopefully* he will start waking a little later accordingly.
Alternatively, you can wait until the clocks go forward and do a great big happy dance that your LO now wakes at 7am for his first bottle 

Hopefully all the above sounds as reasonable written down as it does in my head!

[Mama2boys]

Hi MammaHolmes,

You POV is not hard hadrlines at all. I think you are spot on. And the few doubts I had about hunger vs habit were taken care of by the fact that DS managed to sleep through to 6:30am this morning...there were NW but we managed them without any bottles - milk or water. So its not desperate hunger for sure.

I will stick to my guns for as long as I can, and am hoping to stay with the 6am and after rule and once the clock changes it will become 7am anyways

so your thoughts are well appreciated and actually help boost my confidence. Its really easy to doubt yourself with LO's, but helpful people like you all keep putting me back on track.

Thanks!

[MommaHolmes]

I'm so glad you took that in the way in which it was meant!! It's so easy to tread on people's emotional toes, IYKWIM, when conversing with text and not talking face to face.

You have totally got the right attitude and I am confident that if you can stick to it through the fog of early morning wakeups (cos that is the hard bit) then you will very quickly have it cracked.

You can do it!!

[mari]

Sound like an improvement Mutka.  how are the bedtimes going without you being there?  Is he able to settle himself?

[Vicku]

Hi Mukta!
Just checking in on how you're getting on. Had a friend stay for a couple of days so not had time to be on here... glad to hear things have been ok. Think it sounds like a good plan not giving in to milk before 6. That's how we got rid of EW feed (still have EW tho    and I'm also waiting for the clocks to go forward...) When you feel sure that it's not hunger but just habit it is easier to stick to your guns and work towards later wake up times. Hope things will continue to improve!
Lots of hugs!

[Lissybits]

Happy to hear he slept until 6.30am - that's progress and as you say when the clocks go forward, it will be a perfect waking time
And, fabo news that the NWs were without any milk - this really is a great start - well done
Hope tonight will be even better 
Lis
x

[Mama2boys]

Hello ladies,

sorry for not having [posted yesterday, it just rolled into one of those days....

Anyways the good news first - DS doe snot want milk in the night along,r he gets up at about 6 and I know he desperately wants milk, so that when he gets a whole bottle :d and back to sleep till 7:30. This suits me fine with getting ready for work etc and is working well for us. When the time changes I will just Wake him up right after the milk so slowly the association between milk and sleep will go away and hopefully it will all work out. Now thats my plan, not necessarily his

Now the bad news, he has taken to waking up at 11:30 (by the clock) and 3:30/4am for a cry, normally ha the pacifier in his hand or mouth, doe snot even want water and have certainly not offered milk, I lay him down and pat him and as soon as he starts settling slowly walk away form him and he is back to sleep, though this PD WIWO might need 2-3 iterations. Any idea why and what to do.

My first thought was W2S, but thought I'd check in with you lot before I do anything. So please do advise.

Lis: thanks for the encouragements, I am desperate for the clocks to change

Vicku: you too thanks for encouraging me on, and am Glad you had  a good time while your friend was over, it's so nice to have a break form the routine!

Mari: You have been such an inspiration, thanks for being there at every stage. Unfortunately bedtime are not going all that well, He will be in the process of falling of to sleep and then he will turn back to look for me and not See me there and start crying so PD WIWO is required about 3-4-5 times before he actually doses off. But I am trying to be strong, no pickup at all, if I give him a hug i bend into his bed and hug him. As soon as he starts settling I slowly start backing out off the room.
I read with the lights full on and then switch lights off and put away books, so no reading to sleep.

mammholmes: I would never ever take anything anyone ever said on this forum in a bad manner, this place is built of selfless well meaning nd helpful parents....one can't ask for better friends and family!

You guys have totally made this worthwhile,. form a point where I thought I could never do this, to now where I see the end of the tunnel, not just the light..its amazing and because of each one of you.

Now if only DS would actually sleep through the night and makes us all seem like pros!

[Vicku]

Just keep going honey, you're doing really great! Think of what you've accomplished in such short time. I'm sure with consistency he'll soon be ready to settle himself at NW too. You're definitely going in the right direction with it all, and if taking things one step at a time suits you best, that IS what's best for you and your LO. I'm so glad I've been able to help even if just by encouragement. I know how hard it can be and how lonely it can be to deal with these things without someone to discuss it with. This place is so great for that!
Keep us upadated... 

[jess, lukeys_mom]

Mukta I think you are doing a great job!! You have had such a challenge to deal with and you have come so far, i'm proud of you!    Big hugs honey, you guys will get there. And then you will really remember what sleep is like 

W2S sounds like a good plan. I had success with it a while back when Luke used a paci. A friend from my b/c (Lenasmom on these boards) has a lo the same age as ours and she did W2S about a month ago to solve very early wakings and had great success, I think they used a paci to do it as well. If you want I can ask her to peek in here.

Good luck and keep us posted xxxxx

[Mama2boys]

Hi Jess,  thanks for your encouragement, must admit when I read you ladies praising my efforts it feels good. DH thinks I am converting DS into a guinea pig!

But I am happy, no milk in the middle of the night is great and it gives me hope that everything will work out sooner or later. Would greatly appreciate if Lenasmom could also please take a look and guide. I tried W2S last night, but didn't go too well and we had too many NW. But also need to start controlling DS's daytime sleep now, he has been doing 3hr and that might be a factor for messing up his night sleep as well, 2 or 2.5 hrs is the norm I believe.

Now the twister in the whole thing is a long weekend starting Thursday, our first break since DS came along..so lets hope it all goes ok and will be back to sleep training with a vengeance!

Thanks xxx

[Vicku]

Guineapig!?! He doesn't understand the value of it as he's not been the one to deal with it. Keep confident babe!
I haven't got much experience of W2S so can't really offer much help on that one. Hope you get some good advice somewhere else! Hugs!

[Mama2boys]

exactly. Althugh he wakes up in the night almost as much as I do, so can't complain... he thinks a bit too short term and not long term, can't afford a 25yr old son who need me to pat him back to bed..can I?

[mari]

You kow Mutka, 3-5 times of WIWO at bedtime is really not that bad, you are nearly there.

As for the nightwaking at 11pm, Keep doing the WIWO, you are now at the stage of you've done the work, now come the real tests, do't give up, it's almost over!


The only thing that I can say is, be careful with the 6am feed and letting him go back to sleep, it might get earlier rather than later.  I know how difficult it is and how luxurious that extra 1 and a half hour is but I really think it might confuse him in the long run, it's best to start your day if he is going to have milk.

Well doe on a great job so far.
 

[Mama2boys]

Thanks Mari..must admit I feel much better and positive...

if I understood you right, you are suggesting WIWO for the 11 and the 4am wake up rather than W2S...is that right?

[mari]

Now then, just noticed that my post has only just been posted, but I posted that this morning at around 10am     I don't think it actually got sent until I switched on this afternoon??

So, how consistent is he with timings?  Can you set your watch by the 11pm and 4am wakeups?  If so then you could do W2S, I personally haven't had any experience of it.

This is the part that I was concerned about:

Anyways the good news first - DS doe snot want milk in the night along,r he gets up at about 6 and I know he desperately wants milk, so that when he gets a whole bottle :d and back to sleep till 7:30. This suits me fine with getting ready for work etc and is working well for us. When the time changes I will just Wake him up right after the milk so slowly the association between milk and sleep will go away and hopefully it will all work out. Now thats my plan, not necessarily his