Support Thread for Understanding Shh Pat

[mommi2cami]

When do you gradually wean off shh/pat? Like, what are the signals that show that I can stop shh/pat after a certain time? From my understanding, initially, you shh/pat for 20 minutes to help the lo get into the next stage of sleep. How fast do you shorten shh/pat until eventually all you have to do is lay lo down when she is tired and she will drift off to sleep?

I have been doing shh/pat for three days now and if she is really calm during WD, I am able to put her to bed while wide awake, shh/pat for 10 minutes and then she is off to sleep. But I have a few questions:

Should I continue to pat her until twenty minutes are up or can I just stop patting at 10 minutes? Most times she makes it off to the next stage of sleep just fine even with the jolt. It is getting her from one cycle to another by herself that is sometimes the issue. However, if she is not too upset, I can just pat her for a few minutes and she will calm down and fall back asleep.

Should I stay in the room for the entire twenty minutes? Like I stated, she makes it to the next stage just fine so I am not sure if I need to remain in the room after 10 minutes of patting.

Do I stop patting right after she passes through that first jolt or keep patting for a few more minutes? Sometimes it seems like she is out in 5 minutes but I still keep patting until she experiences that jolt (IF it even happens).

Is the point of shh/pat to calm the baby down before sleep or help the baby get through to the next stage of sleep or a mixture of both?

Ok, these are my questions for NOW...I have a few more but I want to tackle these first.

It is kind of amazing how easy it has been to put her down in her bassinet right after or sometimes even during the first yawn and be able to get her to sleep without having her to be on my shoulder. I dreaded many times trying to put her to bed without waking her as I transfer her from my shoulder. It has been three days since she slept on me.

[A pair of Charlies]

Okay. Let's think. 8 weeks old.

I did shh patt with Charles around this age so it can be done. And I've walked other Mamas through it at this age to. Key is to pick your path; the tiny steps you need to make to get to where you want to be. Then each nap, move along another tiny step if you can. And a little flexibility is needed - all babes aren't the same so some might be okay with a bit of light, others need a complete blackout, some like music, some white noise, some quiet, some fight the swaddle, some don't, some just want to lie down and go to sleep with as little interference from us as possible!!

Looking at your EASY I think the A times are too long, particularly that first one of the day (see typical guide A times in link below), so when he went down for that first nap, he's already OT so fighting it. The nap was only an hour as well, whereas I'd aim for 1.5h naps at this age if you can (2 sleep cycles). Lots of babes do better with a slightly shorter A time first thing in the morning compared with the rest of their day. My DS certainly did for a long time. And when they do prefer this, a bad first nap can break the whole day.

So, I'd aim for A times (A for awake = eyes open to eyes shut) of no more than 1hr 20m. After a short or bad nap, I'd drop the next A time down; so if the nap was only an hour, I'd go for a 1h A time after than. It is a lot of tweaking and seeing what works and what doesn't; and each baby is different. Typical amounts of day and night sleep link is excellent as it gives you a rough guide for each age group - remember that some babes may prefer a little more or little less sleep than is typical, and that is fine. The key to tell what's working is whether they nap well, go down for their nap well and are content. 

Right. The ssh patt questions. I'd definately swaddle. If you are somewhere hot, try using a baby's cotton sheet or a thin cell cotton blanket and use that. I initially used a miracle swaddle as it enabled me to keep his arms in position - he fought it like carzy! - and that really made the difference for us. Once he was used to lying down in his crib to go to sleep, we didn't need the swaddle so in all, he was only swaddled for a month or so I think. And when he was really OT.

I would say that even when they really fight the swaddle, it works. The trick is to get them swaddled and in your arms as fast as possible with the minimum of fuss - not just theirs, Mamas too. I had a tendency to chatter or try to calm etc initially, and it just made the swaddling take longer. I got firmer so swaddled and in my arms within minutes and began the calming and shh patt there. And yes, still fought but settled down fairly quickly in my arms.

Guessing the zone is hard. If he doesn't get the stare, I'd try to tune yourself into how his body feels in your arms. When we doze off, we all 'sink' physically so see if you can feel that. When you feel him starting to sink, you know he's drifting off. This is where I would start to patt less or lighter, shh quieter. As time went on, I would try and lay him down as close to this point as possible, finally lying him down before he sank in my arms.

Again, when he's in the crib the shhing and patting should be gradually and gently reduced. You do a little less each time so they do more. So soften and quieten earlier each time. Don't leap in as early to settle when they stir once you know they can get off to sleep fairly easily. I found that I didn't always need to leap in and shh patt when he stirred; I could just pat him with my hand etc while he still lay there. Once that is working, aim to try to settle them with just your voice and so on.

Here's some info I find invaluable.

 * http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85134.0
 * http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64158.0
 * http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64158.0 - well worth reading this. Stacy is a true BTDT Mama and I don't think there's anything in this that I wouldn't say myself. Most importantly: the whole world is new to your babe, so while it's tough on us it is really really tough on them. But it does me that you can set the rules fairly quickly.
 * http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85500.0
 * http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=10384.0 - for ideas on what sort of times are working for other babies of the same age.

Babe has woken so have to go. Will check back later okay.

Mommi2Cami: I will check your post later and see if I can help, okay?

Charlotte

[Manueli]

Quick reply to mommi2cami (not an expert but thats how I understood it):
I believe sh/pat is for both: calming the baby and get her through the jolts or to the next sleep cycle.
I also think that if your baby is fine after 10 min just leave him/her. You can stay there just in case he/she wakes up at the jolt but if you know that you don't need to it's fine to go. Do as little sh/pat as needed. You can also try to stop it after 5 min if you think that's enough. If it doesn't work keep going with the sh/pat but try again another time or only pat or shush or just have your hand on the baby. You have to try to do less sh/pat with everytime if it works. That way eventually you wount need it anymore.

Now I got a couple more questions:

1. My A time is also sometimes so long because I try sh/pat and putting him down early so that I end up picking him up several times until he finally sleeps. Today I started after 1h5min but it took me 25min to have him asleep. I put him down around 5 times. Is that too much? Should I start the winddown earlier just in case it will take a while, even though he is not that tired yet?

2. So this is how my LO goes to sleep: He is calm in my arms and looks around over my shoulder, then he closes his eyes, looks again, closes his eyes etc. Eventually he wount open his eyes anymore but sometimes his head keeps moving on my shoulder. I try to put him down within a couple of minutes after he stopped opening his eyes. Usually it works, sometimes he wakes up/gets upset and I have to pick him up again. Here and there I am successful and I can keep him in his crib and he goes to sleep again.
Now I want to start putting him down when he opens/closes his eyes. He usually protests, sometimes even already when I am lowering him. He does coughing like noises and short little cries. All the times I tried sh/pat then he just got more and more upsed so I picked him up. Now I just pick him up right away.
Am I just not consistent enough? Should I keep trying sh/pat in the crib even though it might take forever and make him upset anyways? Or might he just not be ready yet?

3. Am I not consistent enough if I don't try very hard in the middle of the night?

4. He takes 45 min naps but is really tired and cranky afterwards so I know he wants to sleep more. I try sh/pat but it doesn't seem to work very well (sometimes I also just plain miss the time to go in) so I keep picking him up and make him fall back asleep in my arms.
Am I creating a bad habit here? Should I just keep him up if sh/pat doesn't work?
Can the 45 min nap 'ritual' screw up his night sleep and make him wake more frequently as well?

[A pair of Charlies]

Hi Manueli

Okay, the questions.

1. A time. Try may-be 5 mins earlier if you think your babe is tired enough to sleep. Personally, I'd do the winddown (a really simple one) and get your LO to sleep in your arms, then really really slowly lay them down still shhing and patting. I'd aim to get them to sleep quickly and through the jolts. Perhaps nap with them (next to / in the room) so that if they stir or wake at 45m, you're there to resettle as fast as possible. Or get them up and get them down for the next nap earlier than a full A time. Starting the nap too early may well mean that they can't get to sleep because they aren't tired yet - so you'd face the same problem (won't settle) but for a different reason.

I used to follow the advice that if babe is awake / wakes 15-20 mins before due their next feed / A time, then get them up, feed and then try to sleep again. The crying can make them pretty hungry / thirsty and tired.

2. I'd try to resettle in the crib if you can but if you know that he's absolutely shattered and you've been at it for a long time that nap, just do what you can to get him to sleep in his crib. It is hard to judge and find the balance. The little cries could be the start of a mantra cry and a resettling cry. So if you can resettle them in the crib, go for it, try it. If you can't, pick up and hold and start over. With the aim of laying them back down and getting them to sleep faster. Don't be afraid to use your voice to reassure, shh or just touch / light pressure on their chest or back or bottom to try to resettle.

3. Yes, consistency is pretty key really. It's like setting what is normal for them. But it is really hard to know when to be firm and when they need your help. I think getting in mind your plan, where you are now and where you want to be in a few weeks time and just plan your little steps to get to that point. Easier said than done I know.

4. If you have to pick up and get him back to sleep in your arms, then that's what you have to do that time. The aim is to keep moving towards them being able to sleep on their own... so once they're asleep in your arms, into the crib... then next time get them down a little earlier (before they're fast asleep) and so on. 45min naps are short naps. So if they get lots of short naps it can muck up their nights. Short naps need short A times after as they can't do the usual A time on so little sleep. Therefore, short naps might mean that you have lots and lots and lots of short naps during the day. If they are OT, they can wake more at night. Likewise, if UT they wake more at night too. 

And sometimes it seems that sleep can be a difficult time until they hit 4 months or 6 months and they suddenly get the hang of it; the long naps come. But teaching them to sleep without you is the first and most crucial step. Once they can do that, then you can start work on the short naps - attempting to extend, routine tweaks etc.

Does that help?

Charlotte

[A pair of Charlies]

Hi Mommi2Candi

Right then. Sounds like you and your LO are having great success with shh patt.

When do you gradually wean off shh/pat? Like, what are the signals that show that I can stop shh/pat after a certain time? From my understanding, initially, you shh/pat for 20 minutes to help the lo get into the next stage of sleep. How fast do you shorten shh/pat until eventually all you have to do is lay lo down when she is tired and she will drift off to sleep?

Keep in mind that you don't need to do anymore than she needs you to do. So... if she's happy being laid down awake and is getting off to sleep with the shh patt easily, then start to scale it back so you are doing less and less each time. Shorten it as much or as quickly as you think she can take.

I have been doing shh/pat for three days now and if she is really calm during WD, I am able to put her to bed while wide awake, shh/pat for 10 minutes and then she is off to sleep. But I have a few questions:

Should I continue to pat her until twenty minutes are up or can I just stop patting at 10 minutes? Most times she makes it off to the next stage of sleep just fine even with the jolt. It is getting her from one cycle to another by herself that is sometimes the issue. However, if she is not too upset, I can just pat her for a few minutes and she will calm down and fall back asleep.

I think it it was me, I would ease off the patting so she is getting herself through the jolts and then ease off more so that she is drifting off to sleep with as little involvement as possible. Some babes need more reassurance and shh patt, some don't. I suspect you may have the latter, so I'd be tempted to ease off as quickly as you think you can so that she doesn't become dependent on you to get her through the jolts.

When she goes into the next cycle, I'd try to continue as you are, just doing less patting eachtime if you can. And start moving towards just reassuring with your voice, letting her know you are there - and then start moving that voice away so you don't need to go to her, you can reassure from the door etc. You might find that she just needs a gentle push towards selfsoothing and that's all. 

Should I stay in the room for the entire twenty minutes? Like I stated, she makes it to the next stage just fine so I am not sure if I need to remain in the room after 10 minutes of patting.

I'd say no, you don't need to stay there. If she's making it through the cycle then go go go. It's really if you have a babe that doesn't make it through to the next cycle or if you are just gradually teaching them to go through the cycle on their own and having a nightmare resettling.

Do I stop patting right after she passes through that first jolt or keep patting for a few more minutes? Sometimes it seems like she is out in 5 minutes but I still keep patting until she experiences that jolt (IF it even happens).

I'd start easing off the patting so that you are doing it less and less through the jolts, so she starts getting herself through the jolts without patting. While you do that, might be worth staying there for 5 / 10 mins so that you are there to apply gentle pressure or very gently pat again. Which seems like I'm contradicting myself with the above. When you first start leaving them to get through the jolts without patting or shhing or pressure, they're more likely to wake so worth sticking around initially. Once they've done it a few times, leave them to it.

Is the point of shh/pat to calm the baby down before sleep or help the baby get through to the next stage of sleep or a mixture of both?

A bit of both. It's a way to get them calm, relaxed and in a sleep mode that allows you to gradually do less and less of it so that they then learn to get to sleep independently. Rocking or singing means that you would have to be there to do that...shhh patt is something that can be phased out gently. Shh patt worked for us as a calming tool for quite a while even after we didn't need it to help DS to sleep. Upsets, bangs and bumps, injections, OT... a little gentle shh patt helped for quite a while.

Ok, these are my questions for NOW...I have a few more but I want to tackle these first.
It is kind of amazing how easy it has been to put her down in her bassinet right after or sometimes even during the first yawn and be able to get her to sleep without having her to be on my shoulder. I dreaded many times trying to put her to bed without waking her as I transfer her from my shoulder. It has been three days since she slept on me.

Well done you!!! How old is your LO and what's your EASY like? And have you any idea what your LO's behaviour type is yet?
Questions: ask away. Sorry if it takes me a while to pick up the waiting posts 

HTH
Charlotte

[waffler]

Hi marking my spot but have a couple of questions.

My DD2 will be 6 wks on Friday, and I'm conscious that the Growth spurt will come around (it probably is already) so perhaps thats why her sleeps a bit wonky.

She appears to be a textbook baby. The main point is, I'm trying as hard as poss to follow the conventional 3 hour EASY but the main prob is, that right now all her naps have to be in the arms. Or, start off with fast asleep in the arm. When we lay her down too early, her eyes pop open, or at least within 5 mins they do, and we have to pick up again - mind you, she just lays there awake, but starts to fuss a bit.

At night though, she's held till she's asleep, usually 10mins (after BF) and she sleeps soundly for 4 hours or so until the next feed.

I'm going to try to be consistent after the 6 wk mark, but my main question is this :

Shall I start in baby steps?
1. Let her fall asleep soundly then lay in bed and keep hands there until the 30  min mark?
2. Then after a few days, lay her down less fast asleep and so on and so forth?

Also, with the position she likes to be held in, she loves being held in cradle position, with a dummy, and patting on the bum. Is this ok?

My first DD was a nightmare and p/s didn't work at all so i'm really trying to get the p/s to work with my 2nd daughter! thanks!

[A pair of Charlies]

Hi there

I was in the same situation at that age!! I found that laying my DS down from the get-go didn't work well - he kept waking up and crying, getting hysterical. So I spent a few days of getting him used to lying down to sleep in my arms, gradually laying him further away from me so he was next to me not in my arms.

Then we started shh patt. At first I only put him down when he was asleep in my arms. He would wake up again, but I'd repeat it over if I couldn't resettle him in his crib with shh patt. so... shh patting in my arms (swaddled) until I felt him drop off, then still shh patting gently lay him down in his crib continuing to s/p until he was asleep.

Does that help?

Charlotte

[waffler]

Charlotte - yes that helps thanks. Today, i actually held her for around 20 mins then placed in crib - she was v sleepy and her eyes slowly opened twice, but she went back to sleep, very jerky (must have been OT) but my hands were on her to help her thru the jolts. Then after about 45 mins, she went completely still and very very deep breathing ( i actually checked to see she was still breathing LOL), and she slept for another 30 mins or so after which it was time to feed her.

Going to persevere!

[A pair of Charlies]

YEYYYY!!!!!! 

[Sui]

Hello,

I've started shh-pat with my 15 week old last week (he was 14 by then) and things were great until today. I did it for all naps and nighttime, first try he cried for 1 hour, then less and less, even for once he fell asleep on himself. However, today things turned to be just the opposite (we are on day 5), and for the noon nap he fought me for about an hour, he was arching and crying hysterically, and also we had some fighting for the evening nap.

Is it possible that there may be a regression with shh pat? Or am I doing something wrong?  And what should I do when he's fighting sleep?

Thank you!

Update: Did not even moan for night's sleep, I turned him to side, no shh, no pats, he was asleep. May it be that he is only fighting naps? I'm worried as tomorrow my parents will be visiting us, and they believe that I am nuts for teaching a 3.5 month old to sleep on his own, and if DS fights naps tomorrow they'll kill me thinking that I've been torturing him

[A pair of Charlies]

Hi there

Yes, there can be regression. Some babies don't like shh patt once they get a little older than 3 months - like it's too much stimulation for them. So I'm wondering if that could be it.... but then it was working really well.

That noon nap does sound a little OT to me. So that might stop him settling so easily. A couple of things you could try: reduce the shh patt or just do one of them, rather than both. Lay him down sooner and try to comfort there...

What does your EASY look like? Might be a tweak needed perhaps. Also, may also be a sign of a growth spurt that tends to come at around 4 months. They tend to take a jump in A time, need a load more milk.

Let us know?

Charltote

[JBS]

Hi there. I am new to all this and just wanted to ask an initial question! Sorry if it is in the wrong section.

My little one is nearly 10 weeks. From what I can see PU PD is not suitable yet for him due to his age. He is a pretty good night sleeper with a dreamfeed at 10.4g or 11pm and usually one wake in the night for a feed (around 3am). I am not at this stage concerned re nights.

However, he is really bad at day sleeps. As in, they are pretty non existent!!
I put him down when I notice tired signs. He protests a bit usually but only grizzles and about 10 mins of this with pauses - so I leave him to it. If he falls asleep he can either do 20 mins before waking up and crying (not the protest anymore) or 40 mins. I try to resettle him but so far to not much avail or ongoing success.

I suppose my question really is, do I leave him to try and settle himself for these 10-15mins of protesting or should I shh/pat from the start? Or do I only shh/pat when he reawakes or gets very upset at not being able to self settle?

Thank you!

[A pair of Charlies]

What does his EASY look like? It sounds to me like it could be OT / OS so needs a shorter A time or that he is struggling to get through the jolts and that keeps him awake / stirring and he then ends up taking an OT nap.

If you could jot down his EASY in terms of time he wakes up, E, A, S (what time he goes down and how long for / when he wakes up), then E, A, S again. We could look it over and see if anything jumps out 

[JBS]

We aren't on a great EASY it has to be said - mainly due to the S being so poor.
This morning:

7AM - WOKE
7.05-8.25 E and A
8.25 - 8.45 S started with shh/pat - went to sleep
9.15 still sleeping, I went in to observe and held him when he started to stir

This is where it went pear shaped!! He jolted a few times which I held him through and then he just totally woke up. Tried Shh/pat again and he looked like he was going back over to sleep but then just woke up with eyes wide open and he just then got really upset. It was at this point I had to give up cos I had an appointment to get ready for so I left him for a little while to see what happens (usually he self settles after a bit of complaining) but he just got more upset. His dad took him while I got ready and here we are now back at the E (10.15 - 10.40). Just about to go change him etc and get him ready to go out.

I will try it again this afternoon. He doesn't protest or complain when I put him down at night. Bizarre!

[A pair of Charlies]

Hi

Sorry, I haven't been online for a week...

Right then. Have things got any better or naps still a problem? If still bad, might be worth putting him down for that first nap a little earlier, say after 1h15m. Lots of babes do better with a shorter A time first thing in the morning for the first 6 months. The first nap also often sets up the rest of the day - a good nap and they're ready for their day, a short nap and then the next A time has to be short to compensate (too much A time on too little sleep otherwise) and then EASY all starts clashing!

So I'd try and cut that first A time down a little. Also, do you swaddle? If not, perhaps give it a go so that you know they're 'held' through the jolts and perhaps leave them to mantra and see what happens. Unfortunately, it's not an exact science  and there is a bit of trial and error. I stayed with DS (I tried to nap too), so when he stirred, I'd put my hand on him to reassure. For us, this became an awful prop...... urghhh. The benefit of hindsight!!

Let me know how you're doing?

Charlotte