Support Thread for Understanding Shh Pat

[waffler]

Question on the A times. My DD woke at 7.20 today (although, she was first awake from 5.30 with a b/f, and on and off, then slept around 30mins finally waking at 7.20). So, at 8.18 exactly (!) i started the w/d routine. The first A time should be shorter as you said, I actually missed the time as I was pumping milk. But assuming she takes 20 full mins to fall asleep then her total A time would be 1h18mins... Do you think that's too long? Her naps are awful, at best it's 45mins and worse is 25mins.

[A pair of Charlies]

These might help:
 * http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85134.0
 * http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64158.0

She's 2m old? I'd say that A time might be ok during the day (it is towards the high end for a 2m old)  but really need to watch and follow her cues to see. I think getting that first A time down a bit more (say 1h15 tops) might help. Perhaps aim for a 1h10m A first thing. Hard to put into practice when you can't really control when they fall asleep, I know!!

A 25 min nap may be a sign that she's OT or can't get into the next sleep cycle. 45mins usually a UT sign BUT again, can be a sign she can't transition through sleep well. It's hard when they're so little. My DS always struggled going into the next sleep cycle.

Let us know how you get on

Charlotte

[douglajl]

I have two issues with shh pat.  One: After having to pick Griffin (3 months) back up to resume shh pat a few times after he starts to scream after being laid down, he falls asleep almost instantly on my shoulder so that I can't put him down awake.  I don't think he's learning to put himself to sleep.  Two: Sometimes when I lay him down, he just lays there and smiles at me.  I shh pat and he just smiles until finally, he gets upset that I'm not picking him up and starts to cry.

Another issue I have with nap times is knowing the difference between him not needing as long a nap and him needing help getting back to sleep.  If he sleeps for 45 min instead of 1 1/2 hrs and starts to cry, do I go up and shh pat to put him back to sleep or do I bring him downstairs to eat?  If I try to get him back to sleep and he screams for twenty minutes do I acknowledge he's not tired and just bring him downstairs again?  Is that teaching him a bad habit?

Possible problem?  I work Thurs Fri and Sat from 3pm to 10 pm.  My babysitters don't do shh pat (and I can't ask them to considering what a pain it is).  Will he still learn good sleep habits if I'm only doing this Sun through Wed and before 3 pm and after 10 pm Thurs through Sat?

Jenny

[Manueli]

First of all thanks Charlotte for the great help. But I still have some questions as well.

I don't seem to be able to get to that point where I can put Hayden (now 3 month) into his crib before he is pretty much sleeping in my arms. Therefore is it ok to put him into the crib and when he starts crying keep my arm on him and shush BUT leave him in the crib until he HOPEFULLY finally calms down. Is that considered crying out and too harsh on him? I am just a bit frustrated with sh/pat because it doesn't seem to work. We are really more regressing than progressing. And our little guy gets more and more OT with every day because he has so bad nights and now doesn't sleep much during the day as well. He usually just gets around 12hr of sleep in 24hr. I feel like I am in this hopeless cylce of being OT which leads to less sleep, which then leads to being even more OT... How do I get out of that?

[A pair of Charlies]

Manueli,

Okay.... if you can't get him to the drowsy lay down point, then try things that you think might work.  So, as you say, try laying him down and then shh patting if he's struggling and see how that goes, picking up if distressed and won't be soothed lying down.

CIO is different. With shh patt, PUPD (pick-up put-down) and GW (gradual withdrawl) you are there to reassure and comfort your LO. And that is a huge difference. By being there, you are reassuring them that everything is okay, just a new way to get to sleep. CIO is walking out of the door and leaving them to cry it out until they eventually fall asleep. It isn't a BW approach - it's the opposite to BW really, because it's not listening to your child but ignoring them!

So, no. Letting your LO cry in the crib while you are there and trying to settle isn't CIO.

At 3 months, shh patt can become too stimulating. As newborn - 3m, the shh and patt focuses them and relaxes them. For many babies, after 3m, shh patt can become distracting and frustrating rather than relaxing. At this point, lots of Mamas experient trying either shh or patt, and others try PUPD. There's a PUPD board here with amazing help on hand. Definately worth taking a look at the FAQs there to see what it is and how it works, to see if this might be the sleep training direction that you want to go in. In essence, with PUPD, you pick up and comfort your LO when they are crying. When they stop, you lay them back down again. So they know you are there, they aren't crying without comfort or reassurance.

Another option might be a modified shh patt... This is copied from a really really old thread where someone explained what they did...

When baby short naps, some people choose try and extend for a short time, then get them up - feed them at feeding time and put then down when they see sleepy cues.  For us, sleepy cues were pretty much non -existent when he was overtired.  When she short naps you should keep trying for a nap... eventually she will sleep.  A time is funny but it's basically baby can stay up for X amount of time on X amount of sleep.  For babies this age, most often they can stay up 1.75-2h on a 1.5-2h nap.  So, if the nap was short, they can't stay up as long and you have to put them down sooner, know what I mean?

The thing with this sleep training business is... you want to create a situation where - if she wakes up during a nap or night for whatever reason, she can roll over the put herself to sleep without you.  So, your job in the process is to 1) be with her when she is crying and frustrated so she doesn't feel abandoned.  2) guide her toward sleep without helping too much.  3) calm her when she is over the top.  With sleep training you're job would not be to put her to sleep, make her sleepy, soothe her - because this her what you're trying to teach her to do.  If you do, she can't learn it because she isn't given the opportunity.

I'll tell you about my pat/shh.  I did our wind down, and put him in the crib (fan on high facing the wall for white noise, room black) with I love you's and kisses and my cue phrase, It's time for sleeping.  I'd leave the room, and listen at the door.  I gave him a chance to settle and soothe himself and when I heard the right cry, I'd go in, turn him on his side and begin to pat his back (in the famous tic tock fashion) quite quickly.  I didn't shh cause he didn't like it.  He'd still be crying, not hysterical, but not happy.  Cry, cry, cry - because I wasn't picking him up and putting him to sleep - because he was tired and frustrated - because it was all different.  Crying is ok, it's the only way they can communicate, and they have a right to be upset with the changes lol.  If he became hysterical (which was rare - he'd cry hard, and long but he rarely become truly hysterical) I'd pick him up and pat him on my back until the hysteria subsided (not til he stopped crying mind you, just til he was a bit calmer) and I'd put him back down and pat again.  At first this took forever, but eventually his crying would become softer and I patted softer and slower - as he was calming down and beginning to soothe and get sleepy, I'd really slow my patting, and make it very soft.  At the point where he was going to be falling asleep, I made the patting slower, and slower over a min, and then I stopped and kept my hand there.  I'd watch  him, in the beginning he'd start crying again, so I'd start patting again, and repeat the slowing, this start stopped happen for a while at first - but I never put him to sleep, I always stopped when he was about to go off to sleep so he'd learn to do that part on his own... even if that meant he'd start up crying again.   As the days went by, I helped him less and less; less patting, stopping sooner (but always slowing so the stop wasn't startling and abrupt) - and he started being able to put himself to sleep.  Each sleep I'd put him in there and walk out and see if he could do it, one day he fussed for like 1m and then it was quiet.  He did it, and it was amazing - I was so proud of him, I almost ran in there to pick him up and kiss him - but thought better of it LOL. 

We came to BW at 3.75-4m - he was addicted to the paci and swaddle, severely overtired, and not any a routine at all.  With this pat/shhing (it's different in that the one for birth to 3m, you actually put baby to sleep with it and continue patting for 10m into the sleep cycle) we got rid of the paci, swaddle and got on to EASY.  It took roughly 10 days, most of which were hell and most of which I spent in the nursery, crying right along with him because it felt like it was never going to work.  But it did, and after those 10 days I'd wind down, put him in the crib with I love you's and the sleep phrase and I'd leave and he go off to sleep.  Even today, same thing (he is in a big boy bed now).

The other thing to perhaps look at is whether their needs have changed recently - how much A time or sleep they need, teething etc?

HTH

Charlotte

[fionifelisa]

Im not sure should I post this here??
anyway,,,,,DS is 10 weeks old and I've started sh/pat for about 3 days.tried a week ago and just couldn't handle the stress so decided to stop and re-read the book again, so this time im determine to get it! but we are hitting some roadblocks, not sure am I doing something wrong.
for the first 2 month, we rock, walk, sway DS to sleep. but often after putting him down about 5 mins DS would wakes and cries . so we AP with carrying him around when he sleeps. (not even in a swing and other stuff)DS would often stir while hes sleeping in our arms,  the moment he started to stir, we would get up, rock, sway again in the name to keep DS asleep. (so guilty:( ) after while, sometimes we couldn't even sit because DS would stir and wakes again.
i know we needed a change desperately. the problem we're having is seems he needs the sh/pat in order to stay asleep, just as he needed the movement (rocking ,swaying)before to stay asllep.
I started off sh/pat DS in my arms, he still fuss and cries a big deal. but its taking less time to settle him. then I would transfer him to his crib while sh/pat till he is in deep sleep. but often he wakes mins after I stop and seems I need to sh/pat to keep him stay asleep.
early today I started windown after DS has been up for about 50 mins I don't think he could handle over an hour. the the moment I pick him up after being swaddle, he started to fuss and cry. took me about 40 mins to get him completely calm in my arms. off to crib while still sh/pat. then boom about 10 mins later he started to cry and fuss(i was still pat/sh). I pick him up to calm in my arms. off to the crib after settled down. an hour and a half later he finally fall sleep. then I start slowing the patting and sh. but then he wakes. start sh/pat again. attemp to stop for 2 times, but he wakes if Im not pat/sh.
what should I do, im started to doubt will this every work for us, and it seems DS will eventually go down because he's so OT. Im so stressing, seems I turn my DS into a cranky fussy baby.

[A pair of Charlies]

Urghhhh... darn laptop decided not to post the reply I'd just spent ages on!!!! ARgghhhhhhhhhh

I have two issues with shh pat....
Jenny

Im not sure should I post this here??...seems I turn my DS into a cranky fussy baby.

I'll be back online later and will redo reply to both of you  . DS will be up from his nap shortly and I've got to do a whirlwind of chores before he gets up and destroys the house. 

Charlotte

[emuk00]

Hi,

I have read through quite a lot of the pages for some help and advice, but felt it would be easier to write down what we do and see where we are going wrong?

I did want to start EASY on day one, but with a 19 month old found it quite difficult, so we are starting on week 3.

DD2 always falls asleep on us, so trying to get her to sleep in her crib has been a nightmare, but when you are tired and want sleep you do whats easiest, but we knew we didn't want to do this all the time.

to explain the situation....Her crib has an item of my clothing underneather her, 2 beach towels rolled up either side of her, a ticking clock, a comfort blanket which when I feed her I put on me and she is swaddled.

We always have the light off and use the hall light, I bf her and she goes in ehr crib and I try and do it when she is drowsy and not asleep, but if she is asleep I dont wake her to put her down. She has her dummy which she spits out quite a lot of the time, making her wake up again, unless she has gone down flat out asleep. (so I am wondering if we should disregard the dummy - although she needs it at times).

Anyway, when she starts crying we were doing pickup putdown till I realised its for over 3 months, so for the last 2 days have been doing sshh/pat...which we can be doing for over an hour - it seems as though she has fallen asleep, and we walk out for her to wake again. Hubby has found putting his hands on her limbs works a little, but not 100%.

We also have the same problem in the day, even getting her to sleep in her bouncer chair. Although I want her to sleep in the crib in the day as we got this sorted quite early on with DD1.

I just feel there is no light at the end of the tunnel, and could do with some reassurance.

We started the EASY today, well only at 3.30pm as I have been so tired to try it until now, but determined to kickstart it now.

E -3.30pm 25 mins BF
A - some baby massage, some chatting and cooing, change of nappy - twice!! (1.5hrs)
S- eventually she went off at about 5.35pm even though we put her down at 5.30pm, so not too bad there

E - 6.20pm 25 mins BF(woke on her own accord)
A- bath, nappy change, bedtime change
E - cluster feed 15 mins BF
S - 7pm went down, finally went to sleep at about 8.10pm and is still asleep now ...9.30pm

E - will wake her or attempt DF at 10.30pm, although she doesn't do DF...so will be wide awake and take over an hour to settle down to sleep again...

any advice...

thank you - very much appreciated x

[A pair of Charlies]

Sorry ladies.  DS has been sick over last few days so no online time for me. Will get on here tomorrow and help where I can.

In the meantime though - emuk00, how old is your LO now?  Will be back tomorrow and see what we can do, ok? Don't worry.     

[emuk00]

Sorry ladies.  DS has been sick over last few days so no online time for me. Will get on here tomorrow and help where I can.

In the meantime though - emuk00, how old is your LO now?  Will be back tomorrow and see what we can do, ok? Don't worry.     

aww hope your little one is okay!
Bethany is 3 weeks today...many thanks I really aprrciate it x

[emuk00]

to add....I have now noticed it is the 7pm feed and off to bed and the 3/4am feed that are nightmares to get her to settle down to sleep, it took us till 8.30pm last night, then she fed at 11.45pm, went down easy and then woke at 3am for a feed and took until 5am to settle of sush/pat and even picking her up

[A pair of Charlies]

4 week growth spurt?

[fionifelisa]

hi there, I hope your DS is feeling better. I just want you to know we finally see some light throught the tunnel. although i know still longgggggg way to go. the last couple days are getting better.averg takes about 10-20 minutes of sh/pat to get DS to sleep.(while maybe pick up twice to settle) but the 2nd cycle into nap is a different story. sometimes its impossible to get DS to get back to sleep. even if I could get him back to sleep. often I had to pat the entire time.I spend all DS's nap time with him, cause he seems have a hard time stay asleep. hope all this will pay off one day!!;)
P.S. its not so hard to put him down at first like beginning for naps and bedtime. but its always way harder to settle him after 45mins into nap or night waking. he goes down at bedtime like charm, sleep for 6-7 hours then feed around 2-3am. after that feed he wakes every hour or so, and it takes an hour to get him back to bed to have him sleep for 20mins.(anything I should do)??
Thanks!

[emuk00]

we just went for pu/pd in the end with letting her cry for 1 minute before pciking her up, comforting her and putting her down, took 3 hours the first time, then 1.5 hours, then she went to sleep by herself the 3rd time, she just got used to sleeping with us/on us I suppose, but now she sleeps by herself

[A pair of Charlies]

Glad to hear you're sorted emuk00.

Fionifelisa: Thanks  . DS's bug hit us all pretty badly so it was a rotten time. Handling a fully recovered very active and spirited toddler wasn't easy as I could hardly get out bed etc. All better now.

I had massive trouble with 45 min naps. Somewhere along the way of trying to get sleep training sorted I stopped tweaking DS's EASY. Then at about 4 or 5 months I think, the naps started getting longer. But for a long time I was going crazy with the 45 min nap monster and felt like a hostage.

Some babes are naturally short nappers (45min), which means you need to adjust your A times (shorten) and EASY to fit around that. A short nap should be followed with a short A time. But it's better for them to have a long restorative nap.

Would be worth taking a look at these:
 * http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85134.0
 * http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85134.0
 * http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85499.0 - some good ideas for extending past the 45min mark here with modified wake to sleep etc
 * also this might give you ideas of the variation there is for babes at any given age - http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=10385.0

Also wouldn't rule out a 3 month GS as you're coming up to that time aren't you? A possible disrupter of night sleep....

Another thought is that the shh patt can become too stimulating for babes as they get older, usually by 3 months. So generally, experimenting with one or the other (shh or patt) is suggested.

What do you think?

Charlotte