Night waking/feeding question

[albers30]

I have an almost 6 month old.  Her current schedule is this.

Wake 7-730
play
eat
Nap 10-1030 or 11
play
eat
nap 1-3 or 4
play
eat
play
cat nap sometimes 5-530
bedtime 730 or 8
Night feed around 1am
Night waking around 5am, sometimes eats but generally just wants to cuddle (bad habit I often bring her to bed with me at this point to squeeze in a little more shut eye then I'd get if I put her back down in her crib)

She generally takes 6-8 ounces at the 1am feed and usually goes right back to sleep.  Sometimes she gets fussy and is a little harder to get back to sleep but that's not the norm, rarely playful at this waking.  The second waking she's usually angry and difficult to settle unless she eats or cuddles with me. 

My question is at this age does she still need this night feed or is it just habit and secondly how should I handle the second night waking without giving up too much precious sleep over it since I've got 3 year old twins who typically get up around 7 am too.  At naps, bedtime, and other wakings she can be easily settled with patting and shushing in her crib but these two wakings are never easy to settle her back down.  Thoughts?

[Kellyjs]

Sorry for the late reply, things have been rather hectic. How's things going now?

What time is the second NW? Do you feed at that one too? How long generally does it take for her to get back to sleep?

I would keep the first NF at this age, We dropped our BF at around 7mo when I noticed she was taking less and less of her first feed of the day.

I wonder if you might be starting to hit the 3-2 transition soon? Some bubbas sleep well for their naps, then it shows up in their night sleep in that they're just not tired enough to go back to sleep int he early hours. How long has she been on this routine for? Does she ever refuse the CN especially if the seond nap is longer? Sorry for all the questions! xx

[albers30]

The second night waking is around 5 am and we generally don't feed at that waking but I do have a bad habit of just bringing her to bed with me at that waking to maximize sleep time before everyone is up and going. 
 
At the first waking she generally feeds then is right back to sleep although lately it seems like frequently she's been having screaming fits after the feed that last anywhere from 10-45 minutes before we get her back to sleep.  Its probably 2-3 times a week this happens lately.  The cat nap happens only occasionally if she doesn't take a very long nap and its going to be too long of a stretch to bedtime and even then she often refuses the cat nap.  She's been on this schedule for several months now. 

Her first feed of the day is decent amount but she generally doesn't eat until 1-2 hours after being up which makes me wonder if she doesn't need that extra feed at night but then again with our family schedule even when she was first born we never were able to get a feed in until everyone was up and going for a bit just because of the business of the household in the morning with the twins too so maybe she's just been conditioned to be this way.  The screaming fits at night are getting frustrating.  Sometimes she acts like she just needs more to eat but sometimes nothing consoles her.

[Kellyjs]

So she's been ona  3hr first A for a little while then? With that EW (other than just wanting mummy cuddles of course), could well be that might be too short for her now? 3hrs is about average for the age, but have you found she prefers higher than average then?

They tend to like to have their A times increased every few weeks now. Do you notice the NW's are worse when she has a CN? xx

[albers30]

Not necessarily but its been over a week since she had a cat nap so I don't necessarily remember for sure.  Her morning activity time/nap is pretty variable because she's the younger sister of twin 3 year old girls so mornings can be hectic and lots of activity both around and outside the house so its not real consistent when she takes that morning nap and for how long since the timing and location can vary.  The second nap is a little more consistent with timing and duration as that's usually around lunch/downtime for the girls as well.  So to answer your question yes, she's always had longer activity time then is normal for that age whether by choice or necessity as she's not the kind of kid that will pass out just anywhere anytime when she needs it.  Her nightwakings just don't seem to vary much and I've yet to really pinpoint any rhyme or reason as to why she settles right back to sleep or not except the obvious over tired nights/teething/tummy trouble type stuff but those aren't regular occurrences and are very different then the usual struggles.  Yesterday  with the bad weather and it being my day off from work she had a very regular routine day and took a 1.5 hour nap in the morning and a 1.5 hour nap in the afternoon with a 4 hour stretch before bedtime and we had rough night.  Not a lot of crying but just waking up frequently and being slow to settle between the first and second night waking.  Not sure what that was all about.  I don't know if she's developing some bad sleeping habits or if its other things going on as she is approaching the 6 month mark here if a few days.

[Kellyjs]

I'd just be really careful about that last A to BT. 4hrs would've been way too much which is why I'd think you had a bad night. I'm so wary of a too long of an A to BT because of this.

In the early days of dropping the CN it'snot unheard of them to have longer nights for a while. With those 2 naps, I'd try to keep to a 12-hr day for now. She will stretch it in time, but my DD was 11mo and on one nap before she could do 4hrs ish to BT! xx

[albers30]

The 4 hour stretch from 2nd nap to bedtime has been a pretty standard thing as she often refuses a cat nap in there and no matter what I try for a nap schedule it seems to always end up around that time.  I say that but yesterday it did work out with her naps that there was just a 2 1/2-3 hour stretch between nap and bedtime and she was up wanting to play all night last night.  So I'm not sure what the answer is.

[Kellyjs]

Is there any way you can do EBT on the days she refuses the CN? I can pretty much guarantee 4hrs to BT will cause you issues with NW and/or EW at that age.

I would concentrate on trying to push the other two A times, even just by 10mins every few days to see if you can shorten that last A time to BT xx

[albers30]

Right now both activity times are at about 3 hours give or take so from what you're saying I'm not sure pushing these out more is going to help.  We can try for earlier bedtime but sometimes with everything going on with our jobs and the twins its just not possible and generally she shows no signs of being tired much earlier then what we put her down.  I'm really not convinced overtired is the night waking issue either.  There are times when its clear she's overtired at bedtime, generally on days she doesn't nap well and its very obvious signs. She's hard to put down at bedtime then wakes up every 20-30 minutes after that for the next few hours needing to be resettled then its every hour or two for a good part of the night. Generally her wakings are those two specific times and if you feed her 80% of the time she goes right back to sleep and the other 20% she just needs a little extra rocking or patting or a few more ounces then normal at the first waking and the second waking is generally put me in bed with mommy and I'm fine the rest of the night so I really think its either habit or she's still just needing the extra food but it just seems like she shouldn't be needing that extra fee most days.

[trimbler]

Hi there, how are things going?

[albers30]

Not so good.  As much as we try to adjust her schedule we just can't get nap times at times that allow less then 4 hours to bedtime without the third cat nap.  While we've tried to make her nap times more consistent the length of time she naps has been all over the place. She's been consistently getting the cat nap to avoid too long of a stretch before bedtime and still gets a couple of hours of activity time before bedtime at 730 usually.  However, her nights now have been all over the place.  There's no consistent wake up times and now most wake up times result in extended periods of crying or frequent wakings.  If its crying it goes on and on for an hour or more and the only thing that stops it is she either wears herself out or sometimes if I just put her in bed with me she'll settle down.  If its frequent wakings then she's easily resettled with a pat and a shush but I still don't get any sleep because I'm up every 30 minutes to help her settle. At least before her wake ups were consistent and generally easily resolved with a bottle or cuddles.  I'm exhausted!  Any ideas?

[trimbler]

Oh dear it's so hard when you can't get the sleep you need yourself, isn't it! I'm sorry I just noticed you posted on general sleep yesterday too but haven't had replies yet - probably best to keep to one thread at a time if it's about the same issue, would you rather continue on here (we may be able to copy and paste your post on general sleep here so it's all in the same place) or start afresh over there?

I'm not sure what the nights are usually like as in your other post you're still talking about just the two NWs - is that still mostly the case, but you have the odd horrible night thrown in? Tbh I suspect you'll have to hang onto that night feed a little longer, most LOs I think will still be having one at this age, and there's usually a growth spurt around 6mo too. Has she started solids at all? I just ask because often their tummies can be a bit sensitive when they first start, which can cause sleep disturbances and you may need to go quite slowly with that if she is uncomfortable. Of course teething is possible too, I think 6mo is average for those first teeth - do you think that might be going on too? I just ask because it seemed like things were fairly stable, albeit with a nf you didn't really want and cuddles in the early hours, which tbh isn't so unusual. But then things suddenly seemed to change for the worse, with lots of crying - I'd guess some sort of discomfort, or could be OT too if her daytime sleep has decreased over this time, or her total wake time increased? If you think routine issues are more likely, would you mind posting what happened on a real day, eg yesterday/today, rather than an average routine? Might help us to get a better idea of what might be going on... (((Hugs))) it's frustrating and tiring, especially with an older one to look after too - so I struggle to imagine having older twins!

[albers30]

I made the new post because I feel like we're dealing with a completely different situation now as things had been very routine and we just wandered if we could/should get rid of the night feeding before and now it seems like everything has changed a bit but in retrospect it may be because we started to mess with her schedule in trying to change her night patterns.  It wasn't just one horrible night it had been about a week of them. Everytime we hit the month mark she seems to have sleep disturbances for a week or so but but nothing like this since 3 months when we had a major sleep issue.  She's a big girl as it is and always steadily packing on the pounds and inches so hard telling if its a growth spurt or not.  She has started solids but not a ton yet.  She has seemed a little constipated but she's still having stools daily that are just a little different then they were.  Teething is certainly an issue.  She had several teeth that looked like they were going to pop for a few months now but recently it looks like her whole mouth of teeth is going to pop at any second but none do, even her pediatrician commented on that at her 6 month check.  So she's constantly chewing and often acts like they're bothering her but its a lot of the same signs she has when she's hungry so who knows.  She's got a cold as well but with 2 big sissies she almost always has a runny nose and cough so I know this bothers her some at night too.  Anyway  back to your questions.  The general schedule I gave you is how most days goes with just a slight variance in time and duration of nap.  The days I work are always more variable with the sitter and those nights generally  tend to go even worse but thats always been the case and is nothing new.  Yesterday I kept her up a little longer between her first and second nap to get her closer to bedtime to avoid the cat nap.  She ended up with about 3 hours between wake up and 1st nap (7-10), 3 hours between 1st and 2nd nap (12-3) and about 3 1/2 hours between 2nd nap and bedtime (330-7) and by bedtime I mean asleep which was 7 o clock last night.  She woke at 1230 and ate then after several returns to her room to re-settle with pat/shush over the next hour I brought her to bed with me and she slept sound the rest of the night until 7am.  Today was a very similar day so we'll see how tonight goes.  I think maybe the evening cat nap was making her want to play in the middle of the night and when we'd try to make her sleep she'd scream for hours.  At the end of the 3 hour and 3 1/2 hour stretches she's definitely tired but I don't think overly tired as she generally settles easily to sleep.  She has been waking 30-45 minutes into her long nap sometimes and needing to be re-settled (sometimes she can't be) and I wonder if its because she's going a little too long between naps but I don't know how else to get her through to a reasonable bedtime without the extra nap that seems to cause more harm then good. If she's still needing that feed and the extra cuddles and need to come to bed with mommy is just because of everything going on I'm ok with that I just want to make sure i'm not creating bad sleep habits/crutches that are going to be even tougher to break down the road.  We had a few of those with the twins since it was basically do what it took to survive for the first 8 months but then it was misery breaking those habits for the next several months.

[trimbler]

Aw poor thing it does sound like all those teeth are probably bothering her quite a lot hope they hurry up and cut through! We're dealing with teething now too, our DD is a late teether, didn't cut her first until 15mo, and now we have a crop about to pop...

You may well be right about cutting the CN, perhaps just keep it for days where naps were bad now? Don't be afraid of putting down for BT a bit earlier, it's quite common to need a slightly shorter day when they first drop a nap. But yes,hold with what you're currently doing and see what happens.... As for bringing her into bed, difficult one - you know the issues so it's really your call she settles fine the rest of the time, right? So you may find that any temporary night time habits are easier to break than you might fear. But she may be learning that if she cries long enough you'll bring her to bed... An alternative could be to lie next to her cot on a mattress in her room with your hand through the bars - I know several mums have found this a good compromise, but of course it depends on how much sleep you can get yourself in that position!

Btw I don't think that weight has all that much to do with how long LOs keep night feeds, unless they're a tiny newborn, which yours isn't of course. Some LOs are just naturally heavier and still get just as hungry, whilst others are tiny and don't seem all that hungry. Most LOs tend to lose baby fat once they start walking

[albers30]

Oh, I'm not worried about her weight.  She's a tall stout girl, not really that chunky just like her sisters were.  I figure as long as she's actively eating a good amount at the feed she must need it since she's not one to eat for comfort generally.  Our pediatrician just said she thought she shouldn't need that night feed any more if we wanted to cut it so I wanted some other input. 

The cat nap was always a sometimes thing so its not exactly dropping a nap but it is a little shift in everything so I guess the same idea to a degree.  I'm just afraid of putting her down too early and then she starts getting up really early since right now its perfect with the girls schedule.  She still goes down at nap and bedtime drowsy but awake and settles on her own or with a pat an shush and if she wakes too early during a nap she's easily soothed back to sleep like this and sometimes at night too so I don't think she's completely lost her ability to self soothe.

Two questions about the night wakings then.  Generally when she's overtired she's tough to get settled down initially and the wakings come early in the night.  Should I continue to assume the night wakings later on in the night are other issues and not over tiredness if she goes to bed easily and sleeps that good 5-6 hour stretch initially. (Same question with naps I guess now that I'm stretching time between them)  Second question, is other ideas on how to deal with the night waking and wanting to come to bed when I'm ready to break that habit without making her cry it out.  I did the lay by the bed with my hand in there with her sisters but they were older and their mattress was lowered so I don't think I can make it work with the higher bed and to be honest it didn't really work all that well with her sisters either.  She has a lot of attitude and when she is mad about something she gets really worked up and when she does it takes a lot to bring her back down. The few times I've tried to get her to settle without giving her what she wants she's carried on for hours and then was back up in 30 minutes or so to do it all again.  This was done by a combination of staying by her side and patting/shushing and leaving for a few minutes (I needed a break) and coming back and patting/shushing repeat repeat for several nights to no avail.  Other ideas are greatly welcomed because I don't feel like anything I've tried so far has been effective.