Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?

[annesmama]

Hmm, OK, I am thinking her ideal A time is somewhere around 2 hours...?

Today, so far:

(Night wake/feeds at 2am and 6am)
WAKE ~8:00 (I was sleeping, but I think around there)
E 8:15
E 9:15
S 10:10-10:45 / 11:05-12:10
  A=2:10*, S=0:35**, 1:05
  * Super long A time! I was watching for fussy signs, but she was still playing as 2 hours came and went, and then I decided enough was enough and put her to sleep.
  ** First segment was short, so was this OT?  I tried shush-pat to get her down again but it didn't work; she went to sleep right away with a little bouncing, but woke up when I laid her down, so I bounced her again and held her for the first 15-20 minutes of the long second segment.

E 12:15
E 1:15
S 2:05-2:50 / bounced+rocked till 3:40 but kept waking*
  A=1:55, S=0:45
  * This time, even though I could put her back to sleep with bouncing, she kept waking up. And eventually she wouldn't go to sleep with the bouncing any more, so I gave up. Does this mean A=1:55 was UT?? *Seriously??*

EDIT: OOOOKAY, and she just fell asleep on her blanket in the living room... with a poopy diaper...

E 3:40
S 4:30
  A=0:50

[becj86]

First segment was short, so was this OT?

Likely, yes. That can be a sign you have the right A time and just need to give her a few days to settle into it or its a bit too much. I'd stick with that for a couple of days and see if it extends -  think it might given the rest of the sleep she had thereafter.

S 2:05-2:50 / bounced+rocked till 3:40 but kept waking*  A=1:55, S=0:45  * This time, even though I could put her back to sleep with bouncing, she kept waking up. And eventually she wouldn't go to sleep with the bouncing any more, so I gave up. Does this mean A=1:55 was UT?? *Seriously??*EDIT: OOOOKAY, and she just fell asleep on her blanket in the living room... with a poopy diaper...E 3:40S 4:30  A=0:50

Ok, so really, if you're calling it a 45min nap, the A time woul dbe counted from 2:50 to 4:30 which is 1:40 which is probably good/a touch short after a short nap (but maybe perfect for her since she fell asleep herself).

When DS was about 4-5 months old, he was so bad with transitioning to his bedroom that I would wrap him (as a sleep cue) and let him nap on the loungeroom floor. Totally worked well for us.

And eventually she wouldn't go to sleep with the bouncing any more, so I gave up. Does this mean A=1:55 was UT?? *Seriously??*

Quite possibly.

[annesmama]

I think I'm doing something wrong in how I'm trying to extend her naps. =\

A few times now, when I've snuck in her room at :35 to observe the transition... nothing happens.  Like, seriously, nothing.  She doesn't even stir.  Around :50-:55 I give up and leave... and then she wakes up around 1:00-1:10!  What's going on?  Is it possible to transition cycles without stirring?  There's no way her sleep cycle is that LONG, is it?  Otherwise... maybe she's waking up and putting herself back to sleep around :20?  I only sh-pat her to sleep, she doesn't make noise or anything at :10 or :20 so I don't watch the first 20 minutes.

Other times, she does start moving around :45.  I hold her limbs so they don't flail around... but she wakes up anyway!  So I guess she's not jolting herself awake, it's just old fashioned can't-move-through-sleep-stages??

On the plus side, last night she went to sleep at 9:15 and Daddy was able to bounce her back to sleep when she woke around 11:15.  And she slept in this morning till 8:30.  So her night sleep has definitely lengthened, even though she's still hard to put down at BT.

She's 14 weeks old today

[becj86]

Is it possible to transition cycles without stirring?

Yes, It is possible.

There's no way her sleep cycle is that LONG, is it?

Possible but highly unlikely, esp. given the number of 45min naps.

On the plus side, last night she went to sleep at 9:15 and Daddy was able to bounce her back to sleep when she woke around 11:15.  And she slept in this morning till 8:30.  So her night sleep has definitely lengthened, even though she's still hard to put down at BT.

That's a great night - 11hr+!  As her body gets used to this new sleep regime, it will get easier. I think your naps have improved enough to get her to sleep better at night which should in turn help the naps work better too. Hang in there with your 2-2:10 A times for a few more days.

Other times, she does start moving around :45.  I hold her limbs so they don't flail around... but she wakes up anyway!  So I guess she's not jolting herself awake, it's just old fashioned can't-move-through-sleep-stages??

Quite possibly - I think most of the 45mn naps you've had have been a bit UT anyway.

[annesmama]

I think we just had our first real successfully extended nap!  No bouncing or rocking - just plain old shush-pat.  This was after a wake time of 2:10.

I snuck in the room and she started stirring at 45m -- first just little twitches of her hands and feet, then little smiles/chuckles, then some larger movements and blinking her eyes, and then a cry. Just a short complain-y cry, though, with her eyes closed, so I sprung into action!  Started shushing and patting and within a minute or two she had calmed down. I kept patting until she stopped moving and then tried to stop, but she cried again, so I kept going until 1h15m, just patting.  She stirred again around 1h45m and I patted her -- then I thought maybe I shouldn't, since the nap was almost 2 hours already, but the damage was done!   She kept sleeping!  Total of 2 hours and 45 minutes. She woke up soooo happy.

Is it better to start the shush-patting earlier into her movements? I guess I wanted to see what would happen if I didn't.

Suppose we are aiming for a 4h EASY with top-up feeds, 8-8.  How are we supposed to do the evenings? i.e. the first part of the day would be 2h awake / 2h nap:

WAKE & E 8:00
E 9:00
S 10:00-12:00
E 12:00
E 1:00
S 2:00-4:00

Then what about between 4 and 8?  You don't do another long nap, do you?  Do you do another full A time?  Or shorter A times?  When do you do the cluster feeds?  Something like this?

E 4:00
E 5:00
S 6:00-6:45

E 6:45
E 7:45
BT 8:00

[becj86]

Is it better to start the shush-patting earlier into her movements? I guess I wanted to see what would happen if I didn't.

It can work better if you do - probably doesn't matter to wait and see as you did today. Eventually you will find you can just pop a hand on her and shush a bit or just leave her and she'll go through on her own.

Then what about between 4 and 8?  You don't do another long nap, do you?  Do you do another full A time?  Or shorter A times?  When do you do the cluster feeds?  Something like this?E 4:00E 5:00S 6:00-6:45E 6:45E 7:45BT 8:00

You've hit the nail on the head Some babies only do the 1:30 naps though, so you do get 3 full naps but if your LO is like mine sleep-wise (long A times, average sleep totals), you might get those 2hr naps and do 2 naps + catnap. You could also do 5:45-6:30 nap if she'll go down that early which she might by the end of the day.

[annesmama]

You could also do 5:45-6:30 nap if she'll go down that early which she might by the end of the day.

I think we have to do this, or even try to move it earlier... looking at my log for the past week, she's NEVER gone down within an hour of the last nap. =\

I feel spoiled by naptime now... she goes to sleep so quickly then, so bedtime is a nasty shock. Yesterday, her last nap was 6:35-7:20, and we spent most of 8:40-9:45 getting her to sleep.  There was a bit where we gave up and let her play in her crib for a few minutes.  I guess for naps, if it took forever to rock her and she kept waking, it meant she wasn't tired.  So maybe she really does need 2h to be tired after her CN??

[becj86]

You could cap the CN a bit shorter - 30 min should be enough to get her through to a more reasonable BT...

[annesmama]

Progress... sort of.  3 night wakings instead of two, so I was tired.

NW 2:30, 4:00, 6:40

WU 8:00
E 8:15
E 9:10
S 9:40-10:25 (45m) -- she was so fussy I put her to sleep after only 1:40 A time, but I guess that was UT. I went in at :35 to pat her thru the transition, but even though I was patting, she woke up. At least she woke up happy...

E 10:55 (wasn't hungry right away)
S 12:10-1:10 (1h) -- this was after 1:45 A time. She fell asleep in the carrier while I walked. Tried to extend -- I was nearby and watching for the transition... :35, nothing, :40, nothing, :45, nothing, :50, nothing, *snoozed* and when I woke up at 1h she was awake and quiet.  Sigh.  UT still??  But I didn't even put her to sleep... she fell asleep herself...

A 1:10-1:45 Tried shush-patting but she just grinned up at me like "Hahaha Mommy what a funny noise you're making."  Tried bouncing -- she went to sleep but wouldn't stay asleep. Finally I gave up and...

E 1:45 ...fed her lying down. Figured at least *I* could get a snooze in, and...
S 1:45-4:10 ...when I woke up she was sleeping, so I figured why mess with a good thing, right?
E 3:30 (partway thru nap because I woke her by coughing)

So the first half of the day was a mess, but then again, we ended up awake at 4pm with 4 hours of sleep, so maybe not so bad?

Then:

CN 5:25-6:00

E 6:15
E 7:30
S 8:20 ...after 2:20 A time

I usually end up nursing her back to sleep a few times in the evenings.  Sometimes it doesn't work and there's bouncing involved too.  Sighhhh.  Gotta go.

[becj86]

S 12:10-1:10 (1h) -- this was after 1:45 A time. She fell asleep in the carrier while I walked. Tried to extend -- I was nearby and watching for the transition... :35, nothing, :40, nothing, :45, nothing, :50, nothing, *snoozed* and when I woke up at 1h she was awake and quiet.  Sigh.  UT still??  But I didn't even put her to sleep... she fell asleep herself...

She did, but in a situation pretty conducive to falling asleep...

S 1:45-4:10 ...when I woke up she was sleeping, so I figured why mess with a good thing, right?

Good nap

S 8:20 ...after 2:20 A timeI usually end up nursing her back to sleep a few times in the evenings.  Sometimes it doesn't work and there's bouncing involved too.  Sighhhh.  Gotta go.

Could be a few things contributing, my main bets would be:
- its a pretty late BT for a baby, might work well for her but you might find a 7-7 day fits better with her natural body clock. You could try that if you wanted to.
- She might be overtired / overstimulated / both at BT - this can give you frequent wakings in the early evening, usually the first 3hr after BT.

[annesmama]

- its a pretty late BT for a baby, might work well for her but you might find a 7-7 day fits better with her natural body clock. You could try that if you wanted to.

Urgh, do you think her 6:00-6:30am "night wakings" are actually the start of her day??  I usually just feed her and she goes back to sleep, but today she woke at 6 and wouldn't go back to sleep, maybe because of the early bedtime last night.  Nooo, I can't do mornings that early!

What are good A's to do before bedtime?  She's normally just playing on her blanket (either making faces at herself in the mirror, or tugging on her balloons).  We stopped reading books at BT.  We don't do a bath.  :\

Today, she took a short first nap (45m) and when I tried to shush-pat her down for her second nap, she screamed/cried It was after 1:45 of A time; I took her earlier than I wanted to because she was getting sooo fussy.  Anyway I tried picking her up and shush-patting a few times but she just kept crying whenever I put her down.  So I reverted to the yoga ball + Edelweiss, and that worked fine.  But weird after so many days of going down easily!  I thought maybe OT, so I stuck around in case she woke early, but she slept the full 45 minutes and woke up happy.

[becj86]

Urgh, do you think her 6:00-6:30am "night wakings" are actually the start of her day??

Possibly... You might be able to push it closer to 7 but you might find that's just how she's wired for now. FWIW, I thought DS would be 6am waking normal always and when we moved when he was 5.5, he started sleeping til 7 or even later so its possible it won't be forever - keep in mind one day you'll be struggling to get her to get up for school when she's a teenager.

But weird after so many days of going down easily!

Sometimes there's a bit of a regression around 5-6 days into a new routine, almost like a test of your resolve with the change. Stick with it, be consistent for the next couple of days and it should all fall into place again.

[annesmama]

Stick with it, be consistent for the next couple of days and it should all fall into place again.

Sigh, I'll try, but I'm feeling so discouraged... today she had A times of 2:40 (!), 2:00, 2:00, 2:20, and STILL had short naps -- 45 mins for the first three, 1 hour 10 for the last.  Each nap she wakes up quietly, just opens her eyes and blinks the sleep out, so there's no jolts to hold.  She's too awake to shush-pat back down.  I don't know what to do.  And now she's being a bear to get down for bedtime

Edit: here we are at 10pm and she's still up.  She woke up at 6am today.  She napped 5:20-6:30pm, and we've been trying to put her to sleep since 8pm.  Everything is awful.  I'm seriously considering going back to shorter A times. If she's going to short nap anyway, I may as well get more of them.

[becj86]

Yes, I can see that would be discouraging after feeling like you're winning for the last few days. Stick with the 2ish hr A times for a few more days. Really by now average is 1:45 so you'd not be going back all that much or for all that long (2 weeks). These aren't OT short naps.

Is she trying new things - rolling was something she was having a go at recently. That can put a spanner in the works with naps too for a little while.

[annesmama]

Is she trying new things - rolling was something she was having a go at recently. That can put a spanner in the works with naps too for a little while.

Ye-e-es... she has been working on reaching for things and bringing them to her mouth. Still not great at it, but she's trying. And her bowel movements have totally changed -- she used to have multiple BMs a day, then there were a couple days of only 1 per day, then she skipped a day for the first time...  *despair* but she's a baby! She's ALWAYS going to be working on new things... are naps going to be disrupted every time?