PU/PD and WTS not working for 4.5 month old's naps

[laurencopenhaver]

Thanks for the vote of confidence.  So say he continues to not sleep until 7, should I just try to extend the first nap and just not push it too much; if he does he does if  not focus on the second one?  I really do think that the extra 45 min of sleep this morning really made a difference b/c he didn't act like he was tired at all.  And after 35 min nap he was awake as can be, just quiet, so it was like he was well rested and calm and content.  Could that be?  This is such trial and error let me tell you.  I think I do really stress about making every nap perfect, so if I don't worry about how long the first nap is, or at least try, I could handle just focusing on the second.  And who knows, maybe the first one will come naturally.

[daniellechiasson]

Lauren, I just wanted to offer you some support. My DD struggles with sleep, mostly night sleep, has almost from day one, so I know what you are going through. Sometimes it would be so all consuming I was making myself insane (I can still fall into this trap, believe me). I know Tracy has a general EASY specified in her book but I can attest that not all babies internal clocks are the same. If my DD sleeps until 7am it's a treat or I start to wonder why?!? Another thing that helped me was to really stop and watch my baby, not try to compare her to another baby or the 'generalities'. My DD is great at going to sleep independantly for the most part, she just doesn't stay asleep! Like Lana, Stacy, Zoey and the other mods have told me (time & time again I'm sure) you need to stay consistent. I know it's hard but I send you more strength to make it through.

Kyler kiddo!! Help out your momma!!

Danielle

[laurencopenhaver]

Thanks Danielle

So Stacy he ate terrible yesterday, a total of 10 oz at most the entire day.  I don't know how he made it through the night.  He last at at 5:30 PM, went to sleep just before 7 (he napped from 3:55-5:05), woke up at 10:30 to eat 6 oz, which was pretty much like a df, then didn't wake until 5:45 (how unusual ha ha) but I fed him 6 oz and I got him to at least stay in his bed dozing on and off, until 6:40.  Then he woke and I left the room and let him stay in there talking until 6:55.  So knock on wood, at least the last 2 days he's been better.

The thing I really struggle w/ is trying to figure out when the right time to put him down.  He used to yawn and rub his eyes when he was very small, but now if he rubs his eyes he's usually already crying.  I'm sure every baby is different, but is there a general standard to if they're fussing after you do the wind down and lay them down they're already overtired?  Should he be calm and maybe yawn a couple times when I put him down, and that means I got his window in time?  You would think after 5 months I would know when to put him down.  I know when he's tired, but I never know when to actually put him down.  B/c if I put him down too early I can tell b/c he smiles at me, talks, and eyes wide open for 10-15 min.  If I catch it right (I think) I'll lay him down and w/in 5-10 min he's asleep.  And we all know what happens when the little monkey is overtired.  I've tried writing it down, but I do the same thing and somedays when I put him down at 2 hours he goes right to sleep, others he's cranky as hell, and others he laughs at me.  This must really depend on his last nap, awake time and so on.  Someday maybe I'll figure it out.  Any suggestions?

[laurencopenhaver]

This morning he ate 6 oz, then at 10:45 he ate 5 oz so he's already eaten more than he did all day yesterday.  I thought it might be teething but i pressed against his gums and it didn't seem to bother him at all.  Since he slept until about 6:40 I figured I'd put him down by 8:25-30.  Well by 8:10 he pulled his ear and burried his head in me and was really fussy going to sleep.  When just the day before when I put him down at 1 hr. 45 min or so he wasn't a bit tired.  I don't know with this boy.  But he was up for about 2 hours when I put him down.  He woke after 45 min, it took 20 to get him back, but then he slept for another hour or so.  So that nap was good.  He woke a little after 1 so about 3:30 I'll put him down again so if he's up at 4:15 I'll put him to bed by 6-6:30?

[riuliani]

I just thought I would share a little tidbit I found in Tracy's book yesterday.  I was scouring for ways to combat overtiredness and came across something that made me feel much better about my little man.

According to Tracy the 5th and 6th month can actually be the most difficult months due to all the developmental leaps.  Meaning it can become very difficult to determine cues, plus the cues are changing at this point.  I think you probably already know that.  The part that blew me away is that she says little boys are the most difficult at this age and have a tendency to start an early waking pattern (she says between 4-6am) for a period of time.  I couldn't find anywhere that actually stated how long this will go on but it may provide some solace that you are experiencing the norm not the abnormal.

[laurencopenhaver]

I'm glad that Tracy said that about boys especially being difficult at this age and the early waking issue.  He woke at 4 from his nap yesterday, after 45 min., and was crying (really tired)  so I let him go back to sleep and slept for another 35 min.  Woke at 4:30  so he was ready for bed by 6:30.  Started putting him down when he screamed bloody murder and decided that he was starving when 30 min. prior wouldn't eat an ounce.  So he fell asleep at 7.  He woke at 6:15, I tried putting him back to sleep and you would have thought I was torturing the kid.  He screamed like I've never heard him scream.  It was a tone that clearly said "Mom I'm not going back to sleep I'm ready to get up."  But was ready for bed an hour later.

[laurencopenhaver]

No, he woke at 11 and fed 6 oz or so.  But it was funny how if he could have talked he was yelling at me that he didn't want to go back to sleep.

When he got up he was only up w/ daddy for an hour before he was rubbing his eyes, is that common.  We waited a little while b/c many times he rubs his eyes for awhile after he first wakes.  But hubby had him down by 7:45 and he took his paci and went right to sleep; slept for hour and 10 min.  Woke around 9:15 and I put him back down around 11:45 and he never fussed or anything, but I figured he had to be tired and he was calm as can be and went right to sleep at 12.  Isn't that too long for him to be up though?  If so, I wonder why didn't he fuss or rub his eyes?

[laurencopenhaver]

Yes I'm happy, things seem to be going better as he's getting more rest.  I'll continue w/ no df, I just worry that this waking in the middle of the night to feed could become habit it he gets used to always feeding in the middle of the night.  But it's never even been remotely the same time so I guess that's good.  One night it's 3 AM, the next night its 11 PM.  That's a good sign right? 

What if this is a stage in his development that he's early rising, and say by 6 or 7 months it goes back to 7 AM wakeup, what do I do then?  Do I go back to the df and if he starts waking early I know that's disturbing his sleep,  or just let him wake in the middle of the night?  I would eventually like to go back to the df, b/c if he eats at 3 or 4 AM he's not hungry in the morning.

When can I expect him to catch up on rest and not be overtired anymore?  (Assuming I keep on top of the shorter AM awake time)

[laurencopenhaver]

Yeah you're right about the df, since it'll be dropped in 2-3 months anyway.

How do I know when he's no longer overtired?  Just by his attitude and cues before sleep?

Last night he napped from 4:15-4:45, and by 5:30 he was rubbing his eyes.  I thought that that was too early for him to be tired but he kept rubbing his eyes and his eyes seemed really heavy.  So I got him ready for bed and laid him down about 5:45, but he didn't end up falling asleep until 6:30.  So apparently he wasn't too tired?  Any ideas why any other time when ehe does this he's way overtired?

He ate at 5:15, and didn't wake until 1 AM.  Then he woke again at 5:15 and I let him mantra until 5:45 when it started getting more frequent and louder.  He ate went back to sleep until 6:50.  Good huh?!!  I gave him a full 6 oz feed at 5:45 b/c he won't eat when he wakes for good even if I give him a dilluted bottle.  Is that alright?  B/c it seems to work out well anyway b/c his morning am has been shorter anyway so when he wakes up from his nap, he's hungry w/in an hour again.  And he takes in more calories so he tends to sleep better and eat better throughout the day.

Just so you know, I don't know what time it is wherever you are, but right now here it's 7:25 AM.

[laurencopenhaver]

He only napped for 35-40 min from 8:30-9:05-10.  But he woke really happy and talked to himself for  15 min.  He usually wakes crabby.  Then he napped from 11:05-11:45, then I got him to go back to sleep until 1:10.  Its 2:30  and he already rubbed his eyes.  Could he be ready for a nap already?  He seems fine and isn't fussy.

[Missy Lou]

i will be totally honest - i'm going to butt in but i haven't read all 10 pages.   

it seems like this thread has been going a bit, would you mind telling me what his day usually looks like?  i know you and stacy have already been through all this.

also, i just wanted to encourage you.  my LO is super spirited.  she's 10 months today ( )  and i still have to guard her routine like a hawk.  like yesterday there was pretty much no afternoon nap because of visiting family.  it took over an hour to get her to bed last night and she woke up A LOT during the night.  so don't get too wrapped up in all of this.  things happen but don't forget to enjoy time with LO too.  every day he's getting older.  you obviously are doing a great job. 


 
melissa

[laurencopenhaver]

Melissa- I'd be happy to share our day..

Well I first started talking w/ stacy about his 45 min naps and the pu/pd not working (him screaming) and w2s not working as well.  Plus around 4.5-5 months he started waking at 5:45 (It was right on target w/ when he started sleeping through the night)  To sum up 10 pages, turns out I was doing pu/pd wrong and I switched to just shh pat in the crib.  He's getting much better at settling down, but still wakes after anywhere from 35-45 min or 1 hr.  Usually in the afternoon I can get him back to sleep for 1.5-2 hrs.

Just in the past week, the early wake up is getting better (knock on wood).  Many times he still wakes at that time, but I can usually get him to sleep until at least 6:15.  But since he's up so early and takes his first nap about 1.5-1.75 hrs. after waking, he has a short afternoon and is in bed by 6-6:30

After his first AM nap, which is usually 45 min., Stacy said to let that one go IF he wakes happy, and focus on extending the second one.  So that's what I've been doing.  So after a 45 min AM nap, he's up about 1.75-2 hrs. then sleep for I try 2 hrs.  Then he's up for 2-2.5 hrs., and nap again usually around 3 or 3:30.  I try extending this nap too so I could extend his bedtime to 7 or 7:30 but usually doesn't work.
So bedtime is usually 6:30.

On a good day he eats 5-7 oz every 4-4.5 hours.  I've been trying at the 4.25-4.5 hour mark to feed him b/c his desire for food has decreased w/ the developmental leaps.  And rarely does he ask for a feed.  I usually try after the 4.5 hr mark.  He's strictly formula, no cereal yet.

He doesn't seem to show tired cues.  Only when he's overtired will he rub his eyes and buries his head.  Sometimes at 2 hrs I'll lay him down and he'll talk to me eyes wide open for 20 min and other times he's overtired.  So that's been difficult to read.  But he's a very happy baby whether he's tired or not.  He rarely fusses.  I can lay him down and he'll play by himself for hours.

Any suggestions

[laurencopenhaver]

OK Stacy, I've tried everything I think in the past 3 weeks for the AM nap and nothing seems to be agreeing w/ him.  I've tried putting down (to sleep) at 1 hr 35 min 1 hr 40, 45, 50, 55, 2 hrs., and no improvement.  This morning he was asleep at 1 hr. 55 min and slept for 35 min.  Yesterday I put him down at 1 hr. 35 min so he'd be asleep by 1 hr 45-50 min and he looked at me and laughed and was wide awake for 20 min.  Can you think of anything I'm doing wrong or can do to fix this?  Shouldn't his naps be getting better?  Will I have to be extending every nap for the next 3 years?  I'm confused.  He rubbed his eyes at 1 hr. 35 awake so I took him right up stairs and put him down.  And yesterday he laughed at me. 

I'm not stressing out nearly as much as I was about this but I'm working really really hard to fix this and I'm not seeing any type of pattern.  I never leave the house at naptime, and for weeks now I've been doing everything you tell me.  I just have to laugh b/c no matter how hard I try he doesn't do it and I get him up and he's the happiest thing in the world, and by far the cutest.  He never get's upset and just loves life.  I think he's laughing at me saying "you can try mom but I'm going to do whatever I want."  Boy do I know where he gets this attitude.

But seriously, do you think I'm doing everything I can, this is just a period he's going through, or maybe is there something I'm missing.

We  both agree that we think he's overtired,  but one time I put him to sleep after 2.5 hours awake and he slept 1.5 hours in the AM.  I know I asked before if it's possible that he needs more awake time, but we came to the understanding somehow that he was way way overtired.  Is that something I should try again, or do you think that nap was just a coincidence?

[laurencopenhaver]

I think I'm just going to nip  it in the bud and say screw trying to extend these naps, b/c he's happy no matter if he sleeps for 35 min or 2 hours.  He's always happy, he's right where he needs to be developmentally-wise, and he's sleeping 11-12 hours at night.  He just took his second nap for 45 min., mantra for 30 min., I finally went up there for 30 min and tried to get him back to sleep but he just got more fussy, stared at me, when I finally got him up he's happy and fine.

Like I said he's happy and thriving no matter how long his nap is, but I'm going crazy so  I came to the conclusion that as long as he's happy and thriving, and sleeping well at night, he's okay.  I was just reading in Tracy's book too about this.  She said this and I agree, at least for now.  Maybe around 6 months or so I'll try again or see if it fixes itself.  Do you think this would be a mistake? 

[laurencopenhaver]

I think I'm just going to ease up on fighting this issue.  If he wakes happy, fine get him up.  If he wakes crying, I'll try to put back to sleep.  But what he usually does is after he wakes he'll mantra until I go up there.  He's even done this for an hour.  Tracy says not to go if it's only mantra but if I keep him up there for an hour doing that, then by the time I get him up he's got like a half hour to play then time to wind down again.  So i usually give him 15-30 min, and after that I figure he's not going back to sleep.  Is that alright? 

Anyway, when he wakes and does the mantra, does that mean that he's still tired?  B/c if I go up there usually he'll smile at me and kick his little legs in excitement.

I've been doing everything you've said now for about a month and there has been absolutley no change in the napping.  The nightime sleep has improved from the 5:45 AM wakeup but I think that was caused by the df disturbing his sleep.  B/c like last night he woke at 10,  ate 7 oz., didn't wake again until 4:45, ate 7 oz and went back to sleep (not even waking at the 5:45 mark I'll have you), and slept until 6:20.  Bedtime was 6:30.  So in my book that's pretty darn good.  But anyhow, if I've been doing everything to change this for almost a month, and there's been no improvement what-so-ever, wouldn't you chalk it up to that's just his biorythom?  Tracy says even the worst of habits can be change in a matter of a week or 2.  Not 4 weeks or more.  So what's your take?  We've been doing this for a long time now; and don't get me wrong your advice has been extremely helpful in helping me to understand my baby better, but I think it's time to take a step back and just let him guide the way and follow him a little more instead or worrying about what he's supposed to be doing.