PU/PD and WTS not working for 4.5 month old's naps

[laurencopenhaver]

My son is 4.5 months and only naps for 45 minutes like many babies.  Wake to sleep has only extended his nap once.  Every other time I've done it he still wakes up 10 minutes after I do it.  PU/PD occasionally will put him back to sleep but he wakes every 10 minutes and I have to shh him back to sleep; and so this goes on the entire nap period and I have no Y time.  And it's not extending the time from when he goes to sleep till he wakes.  I've been doing this for a couple weeks now and he still is waking up after 45 minutes.  How long is this supposed to go on for and do I continue to do WTS hoping it will work AND do PU/PD when it doesn't?

[laurencopenhaver]

General Routine:
7:00 wake up/eat
7:30 Activity
8:45 wind down
9:00 nap  (only lasts till 9:45-10:00)
              PU/PD until 11; but doesn't work, he cries & cries
11:00 eat
11:30 Activity
12:45 wind down
1:00   nap  (same as above)
3:00   Eat
5 or 6 Nap  (usually 45 min-1 hr.)
7-7:30 Eat/Bath/Bedtime

[laurencopenhaver]

He may be overtired.  I usually take him to his room even before I see his sleep cues at around 1.5-1.75 hrs awake.  The next nap I'll try putting him down after 1.5 hrs awake instead of winding down at that time.

Another question...Pu/PD still after a month isn't working.  Every once in a great while he'll go back to sleep but it definitely isn't extending his naps.  I've been doing the same thing for a month and it's not getting better.  He seems to be sleeping okay through the night.  Getting a dream feed at 11 and not feeding him until 7 AM.  He wakes at night but usually puts himself back to sleep without my help.  I know he'll sleep even better once he naps better but there seems to be no end in sight.  What do you think?

[binxyboo]

I have read it is a developmental thing, and it was true in our case. When he was around 6 months or so, naps started to get better. It seems to happen it the following sequence, that night time sleep gets better first, as lo's start to go to bed earlier and wake up well rested, then the morning nap develops and next the pm nap. I thoroughly enjoyed reading "Healthy Sleep Habits Happy Child" by Weissbluth,it was great for explaining the biological development of sleep.

I have no experience as such with pu/pd, I'll leave that to the experts!

[laurencopenhaver]

Yeah, Tracy Hogg swears pu/pd works as a sleep tool, and many others say it hasn't worked either for them.

And I also wanted to pick your brain about wake to sleep.  I've tried it sever times and doesn't seem to be working for naps either.  He still wakes up usually 10 minutes after I do it. 

Another thing I wanted to talk about is the night-time sleep;  he was waking at 7 like clockwork and all of a sudden he's been waking on and off starting at 5 or 5:30.  And finally by 6:00 he's hungry and won't go back to sleep until I feed him.  But then when he wakes for good at 7 he will only take an ounce or two.  Any suggestions how I get him back to sleeping until 7?  I have tried wake to sleep in this department but he starts waking on and off at 5, sometimes 4:30 so he's never really in a deep sleep so it won't work.

[laurencopenhaver]

Good to know.  So you think I should stop using pu/pd?  And what exactly are all the key factors for making w2s work.  He usually wakes at 39-45 min.  I've been going in at 30-35 min and gently brushing his cheek until he barely stirs, then sinks back into the matress.

I know he could be overtired.  He doesn't show any sleep cues until 9:00 at the earliest.  So I wind down a little before 9, reading to him and sitting in his room.  Could he still be too tired and should I try putting him down earlier than 9? 

Also, if he is overtired and I start putting him down earlier, could it break this 45 min nap he's become so accustomed to?

What do you think my next move should be?

[laurencopenhaver]

Usually every one out of five pu/pd's works; still stop using it?  So what do I do for the rest of the nap time.  I can shh pat him to calm him down but the minute I put him down he starts crying.  And in essence aren't I doing pu/pd?  I'm not supposed to let him fall asleep on me but do I comfort him more than just until the second he stops crying?

And after he wakes after 30-45 minutes, he doesn't usually cry.  He'll talk to himself and mantra cry for 20-30 min before he cries for real.  Am I supposed to just let him do that or is that too long before I intervene.  By the time I go up there after that long he's soo tired then and really fights me no matter what I do.

[laurencopenhaver]

Now everything is getting worse, can I actually TALK to someone over the phone.  I need to get these answers figured out now b/c things are just getting worse.  The website said there's a phone support line but it doesn't give the number.

I NEED HELP!!!

[laurencopenhaver]

Here's what I do...
When he starts crying, I go in, try to calm him in the crib.  If that doesn't work after about 10 seconds I pick him up and shh pat until he stops crying.  Then I lay him back down awake.  He cries again, I try to comfort him, after 10 seconds I pick him up again...over and over and over.  I was under the impression this is what you do.  What am I doing wrong.

Somehting else that has just started is now he is completely resistant to naps when only I put him down.  He used to go right down within 5 minutes, now I have to do pu/pd just to get him calmed down and to sleep.  But he isn't doing this for his dad.  Is there somehting that I've done to break his trust.  I've never let him cry it out; at least I don't think so.  But I'm starting to wonder because he's had a major attitude change when it comes to naps with me in the last week.  What do I do?

[riuliani]

Hello,

I think you have gotten some excellent advice from Stacy.  I confess I don't have any experience with pu/pd yet but I have done a lot of sh/pat and wake to sleep with my LO.  They both required a lot of experimenting.

Wake to sleep required a lot of fine tuning.  I actually used a stop watch to track my wake to sleep timing.  I tested a lot of timings.  I started going in 30 minutes after he went to sleep.  I found he would still wake up at the 45 minute mark.  My magic timing was 17 minutes after he went down for a nap.  It took me about a week of naps to figure that one out.  Now we have the morning nap working fine.  Our next task is the afternoon nap and bedtime.  Maybe they have different timings.  Anyway it was just a thought regarding your wake to sleep trials.

As for sh/pat, unfortunately I found sh/pat stopped working for us around the 4.5 months mark.  I don't know if this is normal or not.  I think he just developed a capacity to focus on several things at once.  My understanding is that sh/pat works because young babies can only hold so many thoughts in their head at a time.  If you combine the crying, sshhing and patting they can't do all at once, so they end up dropping the crying since that is the only thing they can control.  You then keep up the ssh/pat until they have completely forgotten about the crying.  That being said it never worked for us within the crib.  I had to adapt a method for our own situation.  I would pick up him up over my shoulder, so he was very high up.  This kept him from making eye contact with me.  I would then firmly pat him on the back and shh past his ear until he calmed.  I kept him there until he calmed and a little after until I felt him relaxed.  I never held him until he fell asleep.  When he was settled he would go back into his crib.  If he cried again I would sh/pat him again.  I know this was not conventional.  I guess I am contradicting Stacy's advice since I kind of combined sh/pat and pu/pd but it did work for us for a few weeks anyway. 

Short story is that there is a lot of experimenting involved.  I suggest trying things for a couple of days before moving on to something new.  Otherwise you may end up confusing your LO even more.  As Tracy says, "Start as you mean to go."  So that is my two cents to take or leave as you please.

[laurencopenhaver]

okay Stacy, how long do I leave him in the crib crying until I pick him up, that's my major question I guess.  And I know that if I just pick him up when hes bawling and don't do anything he will cry for the eintire 5 min., is that okay?

[laurencopenhaver]

Okay;  today has been a much better day; like night and day vs. yesterday.  But I'm not going to get my hopes up, because even a broken clock is right twice.  But his morning nap, I did what you said, played in his room clamly and put him down around the same time I normally would; nothing was really different than I've ever done; but for some reason he didn't fight me too much.  He woke 35 min later when w2s didn't work and I soothed him in the crib until his next feed.  He kept sleeping then waking, but after 2 hours he seemed happier than usual and I got him up.

The 2nd nap I must have gotten it exactly right b/c he didn't fight me one bit, just layed his head on my shoulder, moaned once or twice moving his legs a little, then I laid him in his crib and he closed his eyes and went right to sleep; awoke after 45 min, and put himself back to sleep and has now been sleeping 1 hr. 45 min.

But like I said even a broken clock is right twice a day, so I'm not saying it's fixed, I think I just accidentally timed everything perfect today b/c really I've done nothing different than usual.  I've put him down for his nap around the exact same time I would normally, but I guess something has worked.

Don't go far b/c I'm sure tomorrow he'll do a 180 again and I'll be going insane.  But thanks, today's been a good day and (knock on wood) I haven't had to do pu/pd, only shh pat in the crib.

Another thing that has helped today is he's taking a pacifier.  He's only randomly done that since birth.  He'll go 2 months refusing one, and all of a sudden will take one for a couple days, then back to refusing.  It makes soothing a lot easier when he takes it.  Any ideas why he does this?

Thanks for you help, but don't go far please!

[laurencopenhaver]

even if he's calm with it then spits it out and won't calm down, still don't do pu/pd?  Will it confuse him if he's fine one day with it and we don't do pu/pd and then he stops taking it and I have to do pu/pd?

Also, since he's been getting up at 6-6:30 he needs more naptime.  He napped from 12:15-2:05 and from 4-5; now should I extend that 4:00 nap or let him take another nap around 6-6:30 to 7:00?

[laurencopenhaver]

I will try paci and shh pat; but do I leave him in the crib screaming and never pick him up?  You mentioned before only when he's going ballistic, pick him up then?

Last night he didn't sleep well at all.  I thought the better they sleep during the day the better they sleep at night?  I guess he didn't eat the greatest yesterday all day though; only taking about 4-5 ounces at each feed, when usually he takes 5-7, could that be why?
     I usually dream feed b/t 10:30-11:00; he woke at 10 crying; I tried to sooth him back to sleep b/c I didn't want him to get in the habit of waking up for the dream feed, but he cried until 10:30 when I finally gave him a bottle and he ate 6 oz. so I guess he was really hungary.
     Then he woke at 4, put himself back to sleep until 4:30 when he cried.  I first tried to sooth him back to sleep, but he screamed bloody murder so I thought he was hungary.  He only took 2,5 oz. so he wasn't really hungary was he?  When he screams bloody murder like that and it's been 6-7 hours since the dream feed, how do I know if he's hungary or not, and what should I do?
    He then woke at 6, 6:15-6-6:45, and finally went back to sleep.  I got him up at 7:10, fed him 7 oz at 7:15.

And last night when he slept from 4-5, I tried putting him down again at 6:20 b/c I figured he'd be tired w/ only an hour of sleep, but he screamed and screamed and wasn't hungary and didn't seem tired so I let him up and he was up until 7:15 (after his bath) and was wound up as ever.  He went down fairly quickly too.  Do you think he got all the rest he needed during the day and didn't need to nap anymore?

Sorry so many questions, but I want to get this right.  I know you know what you're doing and I want to get him on the best schedule that I can so he's happy and healthy.

[laurencopenhaver]

PROBLEM!!!

Read my last one first

He got up at 7:10, ate 7 oz at 7:15, went down for nap at 8:40; was tired from being awake at 6, 6:15, etc.  He slept for 45 min, w2s still didn't work, and for over an hour I tried shh pat in the crib and pu/pd b/c he didn't want paci.  Obviously it didn't work.  And not even the slightest hint of going back to sleep.  I got him up at 10:30 and he's fine; happy.  What do I do.  He went back to sleep yesterday so I don't think he's one of those babies that only needs little sleep.  Cause when he only naps for that long he's tired an hour later.

What did I do wrong and/or what do I do?  And now the rest of the day is going to be throwed off and he'll be eating when he's ready for sleep again.  What do I do about that?