Author Topic: Support Thread for Understanding Shh Pat  (Read 30702 times)

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Offline ktaal

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Support Thread for Understanding Shh Pat
« on: January 17, 2009, 02:51:07 am »
Moderator's note: This topic began as a question but due to all the answers given has been changed into a support thread for people using the Shh-Pat method. Please keep using this thread to chat and discuss Shh-Pat with each other and get input from others in the same boat. If you have a new question that you want to open up for responding from the rest of the BW community then please check the FAQs, and start a new topic if you can't find your answers there.

So my husband and I are giving this EASY thing a good try and I'm curious... how is sh patt any different than rocking to sleep or other things parents use to help their child sleep.  My husband is sitting at our daughters bed right now as she has been screaming for an hour now.  Yes, she is tired,fed, burped and changed.  Admitidly she hasn't slept much during the day in her bed because I go out a lot and we walk a lot.  Should it really last for so long?  We've really tried to implement EASY a few days in her short 15 weeks of life and so far have not been completely successful.  Is it possible that not all children work within this routine?  I can't help but think that as adults we have different eating and sleeping needs, maybe children do to and some parents (myself included) can become stressed trying to fit their child into EASY... just a thought.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2009, 12:38:11 pm by jess, lukeys_mom »

Offline ~Alexa~

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Re: understanding sh patt
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2009, 03:28:49 am »
Hey ktaal! And welcome to BW! Of course all babies are different, as we are!! EASY is flexible, and it is not a schedule, it is a routine.  You have to get to know your LO and follow her cues. 

Do you have a wind down routine? A bedtime routine? If you just pop your LO in the crib without a wd routine, it will be very hard for her to settle down.  You could use the 4S ritual. 
What does a good wind down consist of (Includes 4S ritual)

Shpat is different from rocking or feeding because we are teaching our babies to fall asleep independently.  Rocking a baby to sleep teaches her that this is the way to sleep, needing you to rock her.  So imagine yourself carrying a 10 kg baby around your house for 20 min for her to fall asleep!! It would be exhausting!! So the point of shpat is to teach LOs to sleep by themselves.  At the beginning, you will have to shpat your LO until she falls completely asleep (20 min), but little by little, she will get better at it.  Then, you will have to shpat for less time, until you just place your DD in her cot and she'll fall asleep by herself. 

Here's a link about why shpat is not a prop.
Shush-pat - How to

Here's another topic where Tracy gives a pretty good explanation on how to do the shpat. 
A Special Sleep Interview with Tracy Hogg
Shush-pat - How to

Hope this is helpful
Alexa

Offline ktaal

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Re: understanding sh patt
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2009, 06:23:32 am »
Thanks for the reply and directing me to some links... I did skim read the book when my lo was a few weeks old but didn't have time to really give it the attention I would have liked to.  having the quick links to some specific issues is helpful. So, shpat should only last 20 minutes?  The minute I put Mylie down she starts to cry so according to Tracy I should pick her up and calm her down before I put her down again... right?  The problem is that she will be calmed again, but will just start to cry the minute I put her down.  I do the 4 s's except I don't swaddle her hands like Tracey suggests - she uses those to help self soothe (is that bad?).  We'll keep trying. 

 

Offline ~Alexa~

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Re: understanding sh patt
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2009, 16:37:20 pm »
Hi Ktaal!! It is perfect that your LO uses her hands to self soothe.   You may want to try the Aussie swaddle.  This keeps their hands swaddled, but they can suck them.  Here's a link on how to do it.
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=1439.0

With shpat, you start it while holding your baby, then, when you see that she starts zoning, (For us, I waited for my LO to close his eyes for the first time) then, place her in the cot.  She may start fussing and complaining, but you should keep patting and shushing until she falls asleep.  If she is crying, the shushing must be louder than her cries.  If you think that she will not be able to settle down, then you should pick her up, and hold her until she calms down, and put her right back.  Remember that babies have a different sort of cry when they are falling asleep.  My LO still cries a bit before sleeping, but it is a different cry.  It is not a desperate cry for help, it is more a cry that says "I'm tired".  IYKWIM? You will have to get to know your DD and her cries. 

At the beginning, you may be shpatting for a looong time, may be more than 20 min, but as your DD gets better, you will decrease the time.(Twenty minutes is the amount of time LOs take for getting into deep sleep.)  Remember you shouldn't stop when she closes her eyes, you should stay with her until she gets into deep sleep.  You may stop shpatting, but keep applying pressure on her arms and legs, so that you help her getting through the jolts. 

Try it and let me know how it goes.  I hope the explanation is clear, but if you have any questions, feel free to come back for help. 

Alexa

Offline NadeneR

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Re: understanding sh patt
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2009, 20:46:17 pm »
I'm not having any success with shpat either, but can't access the links you posted?  My DD is 8 weeks and has been on EASY since day 1.  She is sleeping very well at night (DF at 10h30 and one night waking somewhere between 3 & 4am).  I am, however, struggling to get her down for naps, particularly the midday and late afternoon nap, so I end up feeding to sleep (I know, I know!)  But that way she falls asleep quickly and I get to spend time with my 4-year old son (whom I think has forgotten what I look like as I spend so much time in the nursery).

Any help will on shpat will be very welcome.

Nadene
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Daughter: Talia 19/11/2008
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Offline ~Alexa~

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Re: understanding sh patt
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2009, 23:07:46 pm »
Nadene,

Can you start a post on the way you are doing shpat so I can take a look and give you suggestions?

xxx
Alexa

Offline ktaal

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Re: understanding sh patt
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2009, 01:45:18 am »
I'm glad I'm not the only one struggling.  I'm thankful for my husband because he is much more patient than me!  Currently our lo is calmed in our arms by sh pat but the second she hits the crib starts starts to scream (not the "i'm putting myself to sleep" cry either).  Should we be picking her up pretty quickly to sh pat her calm again - Currently it can take us up to an hour to get her to sleep with up to 5 "rounds" - is this normal?  Also, sometimes she is finally is sleeping and we've left the room, only to have her screaming again after about 5 minutes... is it sh pat all over again?  i'll surely rejoice when/if this works!

Offline NadeneR

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Re: understanding sh patt
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2009, 11:50:31 am »
Hi Alexa

It's strange, but it seems like it's only every second day that I have trouble with her sleeping ... a bad sleeping day is usually followed by a good sleeping day, like she is trying to make up for what she missed the previous day.

As soon as I notice that she is starting to get tired (first yawn / body movements, etc) I take her to her room, close the door and draw the curtains.  I then swaddle her (in South Africa there is a fantastic range of products from BabySense, including the BabySense Swaddle Wrap - works wonderfully) and sit with her in an upright position and humm a soft lullaby while patting her back as part of her wd routine.  She fusses like mad, until I get up and start moving around, she then settles a little.  I start to shpat her in my arms till I notice her eyes start to close.  I move over to her cot, gently lay her down on her side with one hand on her chest, holding her arms still, and continue to shpat. She drifts off to sleep, only to wake 5 - 10 minutes later, while I'm still shpatting.

She fusses crazily again and starts to cry.  After a few minutes of not being able to calm her, I pick her up and start all over again.  This can sometimes go on for an hour, at which point my patience runs out and I give up and rock her or pop the boob in and whala ... we have a sleeping baby.  I've noticed that on bad sleep days, her naps are getting shorter and shorter though (morning nap = max 1hour, midday is the one I struggle with most = 45 min - 1hr, sometimes 1hr 30m, afternoon nap 45min).  On such days, I seldom need to wake her for feeds as she usually wakes up half an hour to an hour before her feed.  I try to get her back to sleep, she falls asleep in my arms again, but wakes the moment she's in the cot again.  Getting her back to sleep sometimes takes up to an hour, at which point she's due to feed again.  Normally on such days, she is pretty tired by 3h30pm and has a long afternoon nap since she didn't nap well the rest of the day.  She feeds at around 5, bath at 6, feed at 6h30, to bed at 7.  She then takes up till 10h00pm to settle, after my milk supply is down to zero and I give a bottle of formula.  Because it's so late already, I don't bother to DF at 10h30, she goes through till somewhere between 3 & 4am, has a 10 minute feed, and sleeps again till around 6h30am.

I'm not sure where I'm going wrong, and maybe my expectations of her are too high, but I need a sense of predictability in my day since I have a pre-schooler who is getting totally lost in the process (his behaviour is impossible and I know it's a cry for attention) and also needs to be fetched from playgroup.  I seldom get time to cook a decent meal for the family or to play with the little man.  I feel such guilt towards him all the time.

Oh, my husband took the family out for breakfast this morning (a rare treat for me to get to a shopping mall).  She fell asleep in the car on the way home, I took her out of her car seat, she woke up, I walked with her for 5 minutes, put her in her cot.  10 minutes later she started fussing (not crying, just moaning), but I didn't go to her and within 5 minutes all was quiet ... that was an hour ago.  This is a first for her!!!

All in all, I don't think we're doing too badly given how well she sleeps at night, but I don't want to create bad habits that will just be harder to break later on.

Nadene
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Son: Lian 19/08/2004
Daughter: Talia 19/11/2008
Step daughter: Anri 19/11/1994

Offline ~Alexa~

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Re: understanding sh patt
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2009, 18:07:53 pm »
Hi Ktaal!!
It is normal for shpat to work after several days of doing it.  Are you placing your LO drowsy but AWAKE in the crib?? If you wait for him to be asleep, the moment you place him in his crib, he will wake up!! So you have to place him awake and continue shpat while he is down in his crib. 
The waking up after 5 min may be because you are leaving too early.  You should wait 20 min after your lo has fallen asleep.  Babies usually have several jolts that wake them up, so you need to help your DS getting through them.  You may stop the shpat, but continue applying pressure on his arms and legs.

Nadene,
I don't know how old your DD is, but I assume she is pretty young.  At the beginning, you will think that shpat is not working, but believe me that it is.  I started using shpat at 7 weeks, but I thought it wasn't working, I spent 1 hour shpatting and he would only sleep for 20 min and wake up.  It drove me crazy!! When it was impossible, I ended up rocking my LO to sleep.  I thought I was doing things wrong, but now that he is 4 months, he has learned it.  I just put him in his crib, shpat for 1 min and off he goes!! :)

So I think that you should keep trying shpat.  I know how frustrating it can be when you have other children or when you don't have time for anything, but this is just temporary! Your lo will learn to sleep independently and it will work better for you.
It is normal for her to wake after 5-10 min.  LOs have jolts while sleeping.  When this happens, just keep patting and shushing and give her a chance to fall asleep again.

I hope you find this helpful.
Alexa

Offline A pair of Charlies

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Re: understanding sh patt
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2009, 18:57:57 pm »
Hi

First up, apologies: this is a LONG reply. Hopefully you'll find something useful in here to help you with sshh patt; sorry if not.

I started shh patt at 8 or 9 weeks when I discovered BW, thank GOD. Until then DS was a babe in arms and only slept on me, or by trickery. It is a tough call that only you can make: you need rest, LO needs rest but you want to do it in a way that doesn't create more problems. And it is hard, so don't go beating yourself up when you need to AP to get through tough times. Don't beat yourself up at all. 

So shh pat. It got my LO off my chest and into his crib pn the first go so I am a massive fan. I think for some babies the combination of shh and patt can be too much (the closer they got to 3 months I found).  This is what I did to get him off me and in that crib, and stay there:

 * make that crib nice and cosy: I stuffed a couple of hand towels rolled up down the sides so it was soft and snug against his body. When he was really tiny I also took off the top I was wearing (so it smelled like what comforted him) and popped it in there too (side or underneath. A muslin that's spent a few hours under my top, tucked in my bra also worked well - folded and tucked along where a pillow would be. Great for spitups.... Oh, and a wheattie or heatpack or hot water bottle to warm up the bed just a little helped me too. Or put the blanket on a warm radiator first. Anything that would make you feel cosier if you were them, IYKWIM?

 * find a rhythm that works for you both: the first time I tried shh patt it didn't work. I was shhhing like a banshee; loudly, too fast, too stressed to be relaxing and sounded panicky. Enter DH who (less stressed and tired) found a rhythm for us. My shhh sounds, to me, like water coming in over pebbles in the tide and back out again...so it's stronger in the middle and long. Then I got my pat rhythm too, I tried the tick tock tick tock (I'd used a heart beat rhythm previously and that worked well too). Very gentle pat on middle of upper back. I kept in my head what it was meant to simulate: womb noises, the wooshing of fluids and the tick tock of your heart. Your LO's used to that sound; comfort. You're recreating it. Not loud, not stressed, not panicked...just gentle and try to tune out if you know what I mean? Sounds unbelievably anal but over a count / beat of 8 (tick tock = 2), my shh lasted 6. Silence for 2 counts and then ssshing started again. The pat was constant. To keep calm, I tried to think back to the times I would pat my tummy gently (or rub) when DS was on the inside and had hick-ups. We had more success when I was in that mindset.

 * swaddle. I initially didn't for the first few weeks of his life as he fought his way out (monkey) and was scared of them. But it worked for us and while he fought initially, he didn't relax anywhere near as well without it in the first few weeks of his bed. Swaddle wasn't needed after he was 3 months (around there)

 * right then. shh patt  him while holding him over your shoulder or, if you can, in a cradle position (less noticeable when LO's laid down). Keep it going: if screaming, be a little louder so LO can hear (but not so it's loud and scary) and quieter when they quiet down. As soon as you feel that lovely little body going a little more limp and floppy get ready for your move...and keep patting... and shhing...do not stop....now move them into the sleeping position still in your arms...still patting, shhing, still your warmth. Now start moving into the crib / bed, still spspspspsp. lay down gently and keep your face close to theirs (oddly warm breath near his cheek would often resettle my LO when being moved), once you've laid down, keep spspspsps. Hard so you might need to lay on side to reach back or start patting on chest (I found back hard after a while so I started patting chest before I laid down and continued in crib), keep it going but start easing off the volume and the pressure of the pat, slowing both gently. I did this until he was in a deep sleep. And sometimes he'd wake, and the SP would begin again (while still in crib whenever I could). Sometimes I'd fall asleep SP'g. Gradually (but as quick as you feel you can) start doing less and less of the sp to get them to sleep: so aim to get them in their bed, comfortable and ready for sleep. Initially, wait with them until you know they're in the deep sleep. When I was desparate for DS to get a really good sleep, I'd stay with him so that if he stirred after 30 or 45 mins, I could get him back to sleep very quickly and with little effort (often just the gentle pressure of a hand on his chest could be enough). Investing time early on pays off; leave the room too early when they're just in a light sleep and you could be doing it all over again...

 *going down sleepy but awake: great to do this if you can. I couldn't initially. DH would put him in asleep, after a few mins of sleep in arms with SP (still SPg). I would put DS in as soon as I felt his head flop a little then get him to deep sleep in crib. Over the space of a week, I put him in the crib earlier and did less SP to get him to sleep. So...initially when his head flopped a little (just fallen asleep). Next time, just as head flops. Then just as body goes limp and relaxed but before the head flop... do you see what I mean. While in the bed, gradually do less SP to get them asleep. The shh pat is the means of you sneaking them into that bed without their noticing, IYKWIM

 * keep an eye on the road ahead: where you are heading - to be able to take your baby and, after a wind-down, lay them in their bed awake and leave them to put themself to sleep. It may seem madness, but it's where you want to get to. So everything you do should be a move towards independent sleep (there are times you can't. AP with rocking etc can be necessary when you both need rest). Over time (a couple of naps, a few days, a week - depends on babe) SP slows and eases off so it's your hand on chest with a little gentle pressure. And then nothing at all

 * cries whenever you lay him down: If you were in the cosiest place you can imagine, you'd be vocal when moved. You are warm, soft, smell like home and comfort and LO's world. Snuggled up with you is where they want to be more than anything so any move from this isn't really met with great joy. The aim is to get them so relaxed and focused on the sp that they don't really notice the move (helps if you're moving them somewhere warm!) and feel that you are still near (breath, warmth, pressure of patt initially). They don't know the bed is safe. But you do. Sounds obvious but in the frustrating sleep deprived hours I had to remind myself of that all the time to keep my sanity: babies are not rational.

My LO cried everytime put down for the first few days I think. And sometimes does now. If LO's distressed and upset, pick up and keep the sp going til they're relaxed again. And start the move again...frustrating, much? I tried to comfort in crib wherever possible, but sometimes it's not. Judge quickly the type of cry - a resettlable grizzle or an all out 'I need you' cry. I'd pick up if the latter and resettle with SP in arms; I'd try to resettle a grizzley cry in the crib but not always possible.

 * OT: I have a rule that we still stick to now. If OT and the usual thing (SP or GW) isn't working, then we AP to get DS to sleep by whatever means necesarry. I had 3 options I knew: pram (didn't always work for me), car (90% success here) and my snuggled against my chest (was 100% now 5%!  ). I'd pop him in the car first of all, check he was warm enough and drive. He woke if car stopped (rushhour was a 'mare), same with a pram. I would drive for hours if necessary around and around and around. Dual carriageways, ringroads, motorway...anything to get him asleep and see off the OT demons. The next nap we'd get back to that bed.

 * If bed isn't LO's favourite place, try the afternoon nap somewhere else that they like so they get a break of scene before nighttime. I did the pram for the afternoon nap. Slept better with fresh air, helped me get out and feel a little more human.

It's a horrifically really long post and I'm sorry. Just trying to give you everything I can think of to help you. Be patient, be calm, find your rhythm.

HTH

Charlotte

Offline shivi

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Re: understanding sh patt
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2009, 20:09:49 pm »
hoping I won't need sh/pat as I did last time...but your refresher course is GREAT Charlotte!!!


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Offline A pair of Charlies

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Re: understanding sh patt
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2009, 21:40:47 pm »
... a bit long though  ::)

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Re: understanding sh patt
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2009, 21:44:42 pm »
Great explanation Charlotte!!
I think it will be really helpful for ktaal and Nadene!!

Alexa

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Re: understanding sh patt
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2009, 06:36:36 am »
 ;D lub the new avatar!!!


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Offline NadeneR

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Re: understanding sh patt
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2009, 20:24:23 pm »
Hi Charlotte

Wow, how very useful that information is. Thank you for taking the time to give so much detail ... no need to apologise at all.  My DS is 8 weeks now.  In all honesty ... I've had 2 HORROR days.

I started my week absolutely committed to shpat.  So, yesterday morning I took LO to her room at 08h30, did our WD ritual and she was beautifully calm.  I started shpat in my arms till head flop, laid her down and continuted to shpat (pretty much the way you describe ... long, with emphasis in the middle).  She remained calm for around 10 minutes, then started to wriggle, whinge and moan quite passionately.  I continued to shpat, she started to cry.  Picked her up, and started the whole process again.  She was calm in cot for 7 - 8 minutes, then started to wriggle, whinge and moan again.  Each time the process repeated, she remained calm in the cot for shorter and shorter periods.  After 40 - 50 minutes of this, I popped her on the boob, thinking that she might be thirsty or getting hungry.  She sipped a little and dropped off to sleep while drinking.  I proceeded to cot, just for her to remain calm for about 5 minutes - pop open the eyes and there we go again.  After an hour and 15 mins, she stayed asleep for 45 mins.  That's how it went the entire day.

Today was worse.  LO woke at 07h30, E then A.  At 08h30 (she only manages max an hour in the mornings till 1st signs of tiredness) I took her to her room, WD ritual and started shpat in my arms, she was gone in seconds.  Move over to cot, laid her down while continuing to shpat, remained calm for around 11 - 12 minutes, then started to wriggle , whinge and moan.  The story is the same as previous day, except that there was NO NAP, not even 45 mins.  Eventually it was time for feed, she was so wasted that she sipped for 5 mins and dropped off.  I tried waking her just so she wouldn't wake up hungry later ... no luck.  So off we go to the cot, laid her down and ... eyes pop open within 5 mins again.  By 11h40, I gave up, got out of my pj's (yep - until then didn't even have the chance to get dressed), did my hair and make-up and went to fetch my son from school.

I expected that she might fall asleep in the car ... NO WAY.  When we got home, I got into my big bed with both kids, popped babe on boob and she fell asleep - dead to the world(@13h15 for the 1st time the whole day).  Took her to her cot, where she slept for 45 mins.  She woke at 14h00, so I laid with her on the single bed in her room and we both slept peacefully for 3 hours (I was finished after the day's ordeal and much crying myself).

I don't think I can handle another day like this.  It just took everything out of me, physically and emotionally.  Nothing I do works and it's this feeling of failure that is really getting me down.  Maybe I'm becoming too anxious about the whole thing.  I'm sure she's starting to feel my tension.  The longer it takes for her to fall asleep, the more I'm thinking "oh oh, it's feed time in less than an hour, so she's going to be too tired to feed well, and if she doesn't feed well, she's going to wake up early from her next nap and want food", and so the vicious cycle continues.

I tried for the 1st 5 - 6 weeks at every nap to get her to take a dummy / pacifier, but she could win a spitting competition with the thing, judging by how far and fast it projects from her tiny little mouth.  But I can see that she wants to suckle - me, now hands, but she becomes frustrated with latter and doesn't calm.  I could easily just AP, but know I'm going to pay the price in the long run.  So I have to stick with this BW plan.  What baffles me is, where things went wrong.  She was (mostly) a great sleeper till 5 / 5 1/2 weeks, hit 1st growth spurt and bang ... it's a mess.  At least we still have very good nights - had a waking this morning at 03h40, lasted for around 20mins, and slept till 07h30.

I'm off to DF now, but once again, thanks Alexa and Charlotte for your help.  Just knowing that there is support out there from mom's who've been there / done that and are willing to share such valuable information, gives me hope.  I need a good night's rest, and face another day of shpat tomorrow.

xxx
Nadene
Nadene





Proud wife to Lukas and mom to:
Son: Lian 19/08/2004
Daughter: Talia 19/11/2008
Step daughter: Anri 19/11/1994