7.5 mo long NW

[becj86]

What was her routine yesterday? 2.5hr is still quite a short A for a 7.5month old, so the difficulty settling to sleep could well be that she's not tired

The thing with sleep training is that you cannot expect a baby who is not tired to sleep, so often you have to get the routine right and the ST'ing becomes a lot easier and sometimes even unnecessary in the case of ST'ing re: night wakings.

What EASY are you aiming for?

[tweetie]

Dear Bec thank you for your response - this is my fault I was not clear it was night waking time. That night she was awake 2.40 hr, this night she is again already awake for 2 hr (from 4.15 am - after BF she can not go back to sleep) . Her A time during the day is around 3.15 hr.
I am trying to take this NW as a phase but after 4 months of not sleeping between 2 and 5 am it is hard believe.

[becj86]

I was not clear it was night waking time. That night she was awake 2.40 hr

Sorry!

I am trying to take this NW as a phase but after 4 months of not sleeping between 2 and 5 am it is hard believe.

Yeah, I'd be hard to convince its a phase too Lets see if we can get to the bottom of it. 
When are you feeding her at night?
How does she behave when she's awake during this time? What eventually settles her?
Any possibility of pain?

[tweetie]

After BT I am feeding her when she wakes for feeding and that is not consistent

Here are BF and W time from the last week:
THU/WED: 10.37 pm, 3.42 am, 7.03 am (3.42 am holding her in my arms, fall a sleep)
WED/THUR: 11.13 pm, 2.54 am, 6.47 am; W:2.33-4.02 am
THUR/FRI: 10.33 pm, 2.44 am, 6.32 am   (2.44 am holding her in my arms, fall a sleep)
FRI/SAT: 10.32 pm, 2.56 am, 7.12 am      W: 2.45-4.42 am
SAT/SUN: ---------, 00.55 am, 5.28 am   (5.28 am holding her in my arms, fall a sleep)
SUN/MON: 10.55 pm, 2.39 am, 7.14 am    W: 2.05-4.44 am
MON/THU: 10.15 pm, 2.41 pm, 7.12 am    W: 2.40-4.00 am (all the time trying to fall a sleep and it took her 1.20 hr)
THU/WED: ---------, 00.07 am, 4.17 am  W: 4.15-6.17 am

Sometimes she is trying to fall a sleep but she can not (trying and crying, till she does not awake completely then she starts to play), the other times when I put her in the crib she starts to play, lately I am trying to do AP holding her in my arms but it does not work each time. Then I return her in the crib and she plays and since always it was in average two hours and then she would fall a sleep, sometimes with my help sometimes alone  . Last night she became so hyper - in situations like that I wrap her with blanket, hold in my arms and rocking  .

In the past it started with the 4th month with cooing for two hours, then followed with winds and digestion - she would poop around midnight or 2 am and of course when I changed her she was completely awake... now I really can not figure it out... sometimes she does have winds... last night I could not figure it out - at the end of being awake she pooped- maybe that could be the reason even though I did not have feeling that something bothers her... previous nights I really do not know... if I could say I would say it is her brain that does not allow her to sleep    ... but not always...

It took us long time to get decent naps (more or less) and I was thinking that after a while nights will look better but no... I mean they are better in comparison when she was teething or she was OT but this NW is always here just do not know is the same reason or I can not see ...

I am spending nights on this forum reading and reading in order to figure it out what could I do... Maybe I need to do something with EASY even though I was told it looks decent  . Bec you pointed out (I never paid attention on that - was happy that she finally sleeps so did not want to be picky  ) her naps are inconsistent. Lately they are around certain time (in most cases) - 1. around 10 am and 2nd. 2 pm (if the previous nap was 1 hr or 1.10) or 3 pm (if it was previous nap 2 hr). The second nap is sometimes only 40 min but it could be almost 2 hr so I need to cap it... A time was 3.15 (aiming) but yesterday and today I noticed she is going back to 3 hr (I connect that with lots of A time on the floor rolling and playing).
I really do not know from where to start... another things reading her cues became very hard... I could see today and yesterday because she was tired from the night.... I looked in my App.- she gets only 9.5  to 11 hr (rarely) of sleep during night... Any ideas? Suggestions?

Thank you

 

[tweetie]

Another issue what I noticed lately - A time till BT is getting longer and longer, this evening we reached 4 hr  . She was in the crib for one hour - restless but not crying and I was next  to her. I am trying to do everything what I read but it does not work or I am doing it wrong.
No OS, no toys before bed, today I put her in the carrier that calms her down and she was ready for sleep and when I put her in the crib boom... action..   kicking legs in the air, into the mouth, even rolling...
To avoid building up OT I tried to put her earlier in bed - did not work (after the short second nap), super EBT - never worked for us, If I put her at 2.45 hr (risking UT and end up OT)-doesn't work, 2.55hr-the same, 3 hr - the same 

I am really frustrated as you could see  sorry about this   

[tweetie]

update from the last night  BF 10.43 pm, 2.39 am, 6.10 am W 1.25 (wind  I resettled); after BF at 2.39 am I hold her in my arms and she fell a sleep (it never happened to me before - I woke up after one hour and realized that I am sleeping in sitting position holding her in my arms  ).
I forgot to mention one thing - when she falls a sleep in my arms immediately after BF around 3 am - it is followed with EW - obviously it is connected ?

[becj86]

I am getting back to you, I'm just too tired to form much coherent information for you at the moment, so will be back in the morning.

[tweetie]

Thank you very much I appreciate it  .

[becj86]

if I could say I would say it is her brain that does not allow her to sleep    ... but not always...

We have this issue too.

THU/WED: 10.37 pm, 3.42 am, 7.03 am (3.42 am holding her in my arms, fall a sleep)
WED/THUR: 11.13 pm, 2.54 am, 6.47 am; W:2.33-4.02 am
THUR/FRI: 10.33 pm, 2.44 am, 6.32 am   (2.44 am holding her in my arms, fall a sleep)
FRI/SAT: 10.32 pm, 2.56 am, 7.12 am      W: 2.45-4.42 am
SAT/SUN: ---------, 00.55 am, 5.28 am   (5.28 am holding her in my arms, fall a sleep)
SUN/MON: 10.55 pm, 2.39 am, 7.14 am    W: 2.05-4.44 am

I think this shows (I could be misunderstanding) you had alternate nights with/without the long waking for almost a week there - If so, do you have record of what your days were like before those particular nights? It could to a UT/OT loop that's larger than usual. There may yet be a little tweak we can make to your day to sort this out.

The EW when she does skip the wakings points maybe to UT - if she sleeps better at night, she's taking a shorter night.

[tweetie]

I think this shows (I could be misunderstanding) you had alternate nights with/without the long waking for almost a week there - If so, do you have record of what your days were like before those particular nights? It could to a UT/OT loop that's larger than usual. There may yet be a little tweak we can make to your day to sort this out.

Yes you are right. The only thing I am not sure is it ok to do AP (holding her in my arms) to get back her to sleep after that particular BF? I would like that she would go back to sleep like she is going after BF at 11 pm.
Did you mean to post EASY for these days? I do have records I could write it this night  or if she will let me sleep tomorrow morning,

Thank you very much!

[becj86]

Did you mean to post EASY for these days? I

Yep

Did you AP the nights when you had the long wakings too? If so, yes it means something and its worth looking at.

[tweetie]

ok here I am awake from 4.30 am and we have fun  . Here they are

   THU-----------------------WED------------------------THUR----------------------FRI-------------------------SAT
WU 7.41 am----------------WU 6.10 am------------------WU 6.47 am---------------WU 6.31 am-----------------WU 7.10 am
A  3.09 hr------------------A 3.25 hr---------------------A 2.57 hr------------------A 3.02 hr--------------------A 3.17 hr
S 10.50-12.00 (1.10hr)----- S 9.35-10.44 am (1.08hr)-----S 9.44 -11.35 (1.50 hr)-----S 9.33-10.30am (56 min)--S 10.17-12.26 pm (2.08 hr) +
A 3.10 hr------------------ A  4.05 hr*--------- ---------A 3.22 hr ------------------A 3.27 hr--------------------A 2.50 hr
S 3.10-4.58 pm (1.47hr)----S 2.50-4.44 pm (1.53 hr)------S 2.57-4.07 pm (1.10 hr)---S 1.57-3.10 pm (1.12 hr)-----S 3.16-4.21 pm (1.05 hr)
A 3.02 hr-------------------A-3.13 hr-------------------- A 3.20 hr------------------A 3.38 hr--------------------A 3.26 hr
BT 8.00 pm---------------- BT 7.57 pm-------------------BT 7.27 pm----------------BT 6.48 pm------------------BT 7.47 pm
BF 10.37 pm, 3.42 am------BF11.13 pm, 2.54 am, 6.47 am--BF 10.33 pm, 2.44 am-----BF 10.32 pm, 2.56 am--------BF 00.55 am, 5.28 am
                                     W:2.33-4.02 am                                                           W: 2.45-4.42 am------------W 00.54-1.43 am


----SUN------------------MON--------------------TUE------------------------------WED-----------------------THUR
WU 7.30 am--------------WU 7.07 am-------------WU 6.48 am---------------------WU 7.00 am-----------------WU 6.04 am
A 2.50 hr-----------------A 2.39 hr----------------A 3.03 hr-----------------------A 2.56 hr--------------------A 3.18
S 10.20-11.59 am-------S 9.46-11.28 am (1.41 hr)--S 9.51-11 (1.08hr) -------------S 9.56-12.02 pm (2.05 hr)----S 9.22-10.55 am (1.33 hr)
A 3.17 hr------------------A 3.14 hr---------------A 3.06 hr-----------------------A 2.57 hr---------------------A 3.08 hr
S 3.37-4.22 pm (45 min)---S 2.42-3.35 pm (53 min)--S 2.06-3.56 (1.49hr)-----------S 2.57 - 3.39 pm (42 min)-----S 2.03-3.10 pm (1.07 hr)
A 3.24 hr------------------A 3.13 hr------------

• ----A 3.40 hr----------------------A 3 hr------------------------A 3.53 hr
  BT 7.46 pm----------------BT 6.48 pm--------------BT 7.34 pm-------------------- BT 7.38 pm------------------ BT 7.03 pm
  BF 10.55, 2.40-------------BF 10.15, 2.44-----------BF 00.07, 4.17-----------------BF 10.43, 2.39---------------BF 00.50, 4.37
  W 2.05-4.44 am-----------W 2.40-4.00 am----------W 4.15-6.17------------------                    ----------------W 4.30-6.16, WU 6.55
  
  
  * we were outside and she started to sleep (it was too early so I tun home but then it took  her longer to fall a sleep)
  + stroller
  
  After I spent more than 1 hour writing this I realized that my belief in A time was one thing and the reality is another  and I am complaining  . I could see it is a mess. Shoot me  . The last EASY I posted here on general sleep issues (also NW problems) on January 8 looked definitely different and more decent - what happened in the last ten days - I think bigger mobility and lots of practicing and everything went out of control... I will paste it bellow just for the comparison:
  
  

  
  NW - From the last week she does not cry just play with paci or looking at me. The only thing is that we are sharing the room so I can  not sleep then  . Last few nights I was lying in the dark but this night again I have my coffee and notebook in my lap... Usually after certain point she starts grizzling but in general she looks awake and bored. I was thinking that maybe she is UT but these jumps from OT and screaming nights in ten days to UT are confusing - it is hard to figure it out.
  
  She is 7 months and 13 days old.
  
  Here is EASY that looks messy last few days (as I wrote naps are getting shorter plus regular NW).
  Sunday
  WU 6 am
  E BF
  A
  E solids
  S 9.12-11.23 (2.11 hr)
  A
  E 12.47
  S 2.44-3.28 PM (44 min) - we had guests, the noise woke her up
  A
  E 4.30, 6.36 pm
  BT 7.03 pm; BF 11.02 pm, BF 3.04 am awake till 4.25 am
  
  Monday
  WU 7 am
  E BF
  A
  E solids
  S 10.14-10.48 am (33 min)
  A
  E 11.40
  S 2.06-3.27 PM (1.21 hr)
  E 3.30
  A
  E 6.16
  BT 6.40 PM ; BF 10.36 PM, W 1.00 AM (APOP - fall a sleep in my arms, returned her in the crib), BF 3 am - already awake almost 2hr
  
  

  
  Thank you very much for all your help and time
  

[becj86]

A few things I notice:
* longer morning nap after long NW's - to compensate - the later the long NW is, the longer the AM nap (A time longer seems to result in shorter nap).
* longer A to bed after a shorter PM nap means a long NW

I realized that my belief in A time was one thing and the reality is another

No-one can be completely consistent all the time, but it is pretty variable which makes it hard to figure how to fix it.

What do you think of sticking to a routine like this (just an example), for a few days?
Wake
3.5hr A
nap
3.5hr A (if >1.5hr nap in AM) / 3hr A (if <1.5hr nap in AM)
nap (cap at 45min-1hr to preserve 3hr to bedtime and day no longer than 13hr)
3hrA
Bed - 11-12hr night

[tweetie]

A few things I notice:
* longer morning nap after long NW's - to compensate - the later the long NW is, the longer the AM nap (A time longer seems to result in shorter nap).
* longer A to bed after a shorter PM nap means a long NW

who is an expert is an expert  . Exactly, i.e. today she was awake from 4.30-6.16, WU 6.55 and had am nap 2.15 hr and I am not sure when it would end but then I started to do regular things so she woke up very fast.

No-one can be completely consistent all the time, but it is pretty variable which makes it hard to figure how to fix it.

thank you for the understanding I appreciate it but it is really bad 

What do you think of sticking to a routine like this (just an example), for a few days?
Wake
3.5hr A
nap
3.5hr A (if >1.5hr nap in AM) / 3hr A (if <1.5hr nap in AM)
nap (cap at 45min-1hr to preserve 3hr to bedtime and day no longer than 13hr)
3hrA
Bed - 11-12hr night

I can start that from tomorrow. One question, when she will have NW I will go with regular 3.5 hr but then what if she will sleep longer than 2 hr or even 2.15 hr (i.e. WU 7.00, S 10.30-12.30 or even longer (like today because she had NW) then 3.5 hr A time is already 4 pm so how to fit 45 min nap, preserve 7 pm as a BT?
Another question - obviously I need to stop with sleep training and do AP because there is no way she would sleep after 3 hr A time (or maybe I am wrong but just in case?). Would it be then AP acceptable?
Another thing I am afraid I will end up in OT cycle what do you think? I mean I am just preparing mentally 

Thank you very very much!

[becj86]

when she will have NW I will go with regular 3.5 hr but then what if she will sleep longer than 2 hr or even 2.15 hr (i.e. WU 7.00, S 10.30-12.30 or even longer (like today because she had NW) then 3.5 hr A time is already 4 pm so how to fit 45 min nap, preserve 7 pm as a BT?

Sorry, wake her at 2hr - that's plenty and more than that can then interfere with night sleep too. In this case, you can cut the nap at 30min - she'll then sleep after about 2-2.5hr. Usually if you wake LO from a nap, they won't be able to stay awake as long as if they wake themselves. Also, what's your ideal wakeup time? I was going on 7am, so BT can be as late as 7:30-8 with an 11hr night.

Another question - obviously I need to stop with sleep training and do AP because there is no way she would sleep after 3 hr A time (or maybe I am wrong but just in case?). Would it be then AP acceptable?

You will likely be pleasantly surprised - if you get those first two A times to the right length and keep that PM nap short enough, you'll only need a short A to BT. The length of the day is relevant as to whether she will settle at BT, as well as A to BT.

Another thing I am afraid I will end up in OT cycle what do you think? I mean I am just preparing mentally

You definitely will if you stick with what you've got and she keeps up these long NW's You may have to resettle OT wakings from naps/early in the evening for a few days but that is not as bad as LO being chronically OT (believe me, BTDT).