1-0 no idea need help

[Straffles]

Anna, how did you know alternating days didn't work for you?

Btw Benji is waking max once overnight so pretty solid sleep. I don't think the gro click wd work at all for him. When he's awake he's awake and doesn't respond to anything about morning sun up or middle of the night. He is not the sort of person who would just chill on his own.

[anna*]

Because we would get hours to fall asleep on nap days, less overall sleep, unpredictable wake ups... just a mess. FWIW, I would never have believed the Groclock would have worked either. I think what makes the difference for loads of kids is that it's not mum or dad telling them 'it's the middle of the night', it's a 'third party' if that makes sense. We told Stan that if he looks at the clock and sees the moon, that means mummy and daddy are sleeping and he needs to lie down in his bed. (We rehearsed stretching, rolling over, grabbing lovey). It wasn't easy. The first night he just screamed from the moment he woke up until the sun showed up on the clock. We didn't even go to him (mummy and daddy are sleeping), but called out to him periodically that it is night time, mummy and daddy are asleep. The second night he screamed for a long time (can't remember) but did get back into bed (didn't go back to sleep) a few minutes before 'morning'. I think by the fourth morning we didn't hear him any more - if he woke up he just did like you and I would do - look at his clock, see it's night time, went back to sleep. It struck me, when he wakes at 5am, he has no way of knowing if it's night or morning so why wouldn't he get up and start the day - he's awake, so why wouldn't it be morning, yk? Anyway, bottom line is, if I would have known in advance how well it would work, I would have paid £200 instead of the £20 it cost. And it mitigated the effects of OT, because I knew he would sleep in the morning until a reasonable time, and if I needed to put him to bed particularly early or late for any reason, I could slightly adjust the time on the clock to take that into account and make sure he'd always (or at least, usually), get enough sleep.

[jessmum46]

I agree about the Gro clock idea.

Hun I'm just going to tell you what we did at this point when nothing was working, as rigidly alternating nap and NNDs would not have worked here either.  Again this is not because I think the plan above is wrong, just that it is worth considering alternatives and J responded better to consistency.  I agree with Anna that I don't think the nap is overall helping any more.  We just dropped the nap and went to a set BT.  And yes, that meant some very long days at times to begin with.  However dropping the nap does not mean LO can *never* nap again if you see what I mean.  We did a set BT of 6.30pm, not out of room until 6.30am in the morning whatever time WU was, and if things started to go a bit pear-shaped (by which I mean horrendous tired meltdowns, lots of NWs) then we would allow a quick 15-20 minute catnap in the afternoon with normal 6.30pm bedtime.  So overall no naps, but the odd very short catch up just to take the edge off if needed.

I think I'm right that Benji isn't fully independent when it comes to sleep and that's something you've thought about, considered in the past.  I do think it's worth a revisit but know from previously that transition times are tough on you and it may not be something you wish to even think about right now.  Overall I think it would help the situation but maybe best to lose the nap first.....

[Straffles]

Jessmum you make it sound so easy.

I don't think he or I are ready for no nap. I can't keep him in his room til 6.30 any more! Do you really think you can push hard from 9 hr nights to nnds?

Can't I just try some of the other things first like later nap shorter nap or later bt? So far this is just one short night?!?

Everyone says 10.5hr days when you first go to nnds. You ae suggesting potentially 13hr+ right? Can you explain that to me? Xxxx

[anna*]

What happens when he wakes? Why are you so sure he wouldn't go back to sleep or respond to the Groclock? Of course it's fine to keep doing what you're doing but if things don't settle then you might consider if dropping the nap would give you more consistency.

[creations]

Everyone says 10.5hr days when you first go to nnds

I don't think everyone says this, some yes, not all.  10.5hr days would never have worked for us at all and tbh I doubt it would for you. If his approx amount of day plus night sleep is 11.5hrs then I'd aim for that amount of sleep, but all at night. So a 12.5 hr day - roughly - bare in mind that when you change routine it can take time to settle. The night may not be long enough to begin with until OT works in your favour and he crashes for a longer catch up night.  You could aim for more like a 12 hr day and 12hr night accepting a slightly shorter night if that's what happens and allowing for a longer night if he needs it.

You seem reluctant to alter the routine Straffles. Do you feel it is working as it stands with the 45 min nap at whatever time it's at (I think it is 1.45/2.00 ish)?

[jessmum46]

10.5h days didn't work for us either.  I wasn't a fan because it very quickly leads into an early BT and early WU spiral that can be hard to get out of.  Set BT worked much better here, and yes that meant some 13h days, but it also meant some much shorter days when DD slept in. 

You don't have to jump to no nap if you don't think either of you are ready.  Just offering a possible option for you if you don't think things are working right now as they are. 

What do you do when he wakes at silly early o'clock at the moment?

[Buttonbobs]

I agree worg everything said by pps lovely. 10.5 hour days didn't work for us either - we had the occasional 13 hour night but for us 12 was much more normal. We did find that E was sleeping more in each 24 hours once she's settled onto no naps than she had done previously when having a nap, so I don't think you should expect that you will be getting less sleep overall than he is now.

Hugs honey, this transition is a little bit about going with the flow, if you possibly can. I found it best to fix BT more or less and let DD self-regulate by sleeping in if she wanted to. I didn't wake her in the morning unless we needed to go out but she usually woke around the same time.

I agree very much with Katherine that helping Benji to self-settle may well help the wake ups, we'll be here for you as and when you feel ready to tackle this.

[Straffles]

You're right I don't think 45min naps are working after two 9.5/10hr nights in a row.

I think we have to go to the alternating days plan. Close to bec's recommendations.

I can't see how to get to the first nnd.

I have other questions too. Lots of them. Can you help me?

He's not managing this ot well has been crying an hour at play group this am.

Mornings when it's ew I do everything I can to keep him in his room rested til after 6. Reading, lying with toys, lying with him, telling him the sun isn't up yet etc. It's hard.

[Straffles]

Going to put him to bed half an hour later tonight but if that doesn't result in an 11.5 hr night - how can it possibly?! - there's no way to get to a nnd.

Even if we can get to a nnd, I don't think we can manage a 5.30bt.

What if nights are short and wu earlier on days destined to be nnds. Do you do a Nd but push him from say a 5am wu with no nap to a 6pm bt and how can he cope with that? Etc

[Straffles]

I fell asleep when Benji was napping and let him sleep too long

48 mins. Can three mins make a difference - I hear you all say no, right?

Well half an hr after waking and Benji is still screaming.

So what am I going to do now about bt if I'm going to get him to a nnd tomorrow after these two 9.5/10jr nights?

This is why I'm scared.

[Straffles]

Ok so my big question please:

If somehow Benji magically sleeps a super long night til after 6.30 tonight, and I go for Bec's alternating days plan and a nnd, with bt at 5.30, can I actually pd at 5.30 as I honestly don't think I could go any earlier?

If he diesnt sleep long tonight, what do I do tomorrow?

And if I do a nnd and he sleeps a short night from 5.30, what do I do the following day? When is pd on a nnd? Do I jump suddenly to 7.30 pd off a nnd and short night?

I hope you can answe this as I'm clueless.

[creations]

Hugs honey. I know this is hard and confusing for you.

Here are the options as I see them:
1. stick with the 45 min nap and BT as it is
2. move to Bec's plan of alternate days - if you do this just follow the planned times
3. drop nap totally, set BT and stick with it until nights lengthen
4. keep a 45 min nap but move it later in the day to reduce the chance of the early wake up

hugs for today x

[jessmum46]

I will try to answer your questions

Even if we can get to a nnd, I don't think we can manage a 5.30bt.

What if nights are short and wu earlier on days destined to be nnds. Do you do a Nd but push him from say a 5am wu with no nap to a 6pm bt and how can he cope with that? Etc

If you can't manage a 5.30 BT then we need to find a plan you can manage. What realistically is the earliest BT you can do?

If you are strictly alternating nap and NNDs then yes you would push him to the planned BT.  As I said previously J did some 13h NNDs and was tired but managed.  She was younger than Benji at the time. My own honest opinion is that strictly alternating nap and NNDs would not have worked for us as I think this transition requires more flexibility and responding to LOs needs than that.  But a plan is better than no plan at all.

48 mins. Can three mins make a difference - I hear you all say no, right?

So what am I going to do now about bt if I'm going to get him to a nnd tomorrow after these two 9.5/10jr nights?

No 3 mins won't make a difference.

You do BT as normal and start tomorrow with whatever plan you choose to stick to regardless of WU time or night length.

Ok so my big question please:

If somehow Benji magically sleeps a super long night til after 6.30 tonight, and I go for Bec's alternating days plan and a nnd, with bt at 5.30, can I actually pd at 5.30 as I honestly don't think I could go any earlier?

If he diesnt sleep long tonight, what do I do tomorrow?

And if I do a nnd and he sleeps a short night from 5.30, what do I do the following day? When is pd on a nnd? Do I jump suddenly to 7.30 pd off a nnd and short night?

Yes if you can PD at 5.30pm do that. I thought you couldn't manage that though?

As above, you start tomorrow with whatever plan you choose even if he doesnt sleep long tonight. This will not be fixed in a day. The 1-0 can take many weeks or months for some LOs and overtiredness is inevitable.

If you are alternating nap and NNDs then PD for nap and BT is whenever the plan says it is. So if that's 2pm nap for 45 mins and 7.30pm BT then do that.

I know this is hard and confusing. But it can be easier if you have a plan and accept that consistency and good sleep will take time to come. 

[Straffles]

He's definitely ot big time so I will have to see what hapoens overnight. Tried to pd at 7 but he suddenly started screaming at 6.50. Now I know what Benji ot looks like. No warning, happy and calm. Then sudden inconsolable breakdown. Asleep by 7.20.

Yes I want to go for alternating days as I just don't think he can handle ct after tonight's bedtime.

6pm is more realistic for us as an earliest bt. He will have to sleep past 7 tomorrow to get there but I can't see that happening really.

I don't think the nap is working creations and feel that persisting with it will just mean more short nights which I can see now he just can't handle.

Jessmum you say you must stick to alternating nap day as written but you also say flexibility is needed. Two short nights in a row he clearly can't handle so I'm not sure. And yes I do get confused. I'm waking at 1 bolt upright and can't get back to sleep ATM so do not have a clear mind. Neither I not Michael can tell when Benji is tired until he cracks suddenly as tonight.

What do you think the times for an alternating schedule should look like?  X