PU/PD help needed for 8 mo old

[Antie66]

He seems to want to fall asleep alone. This morning we finished our nap routine and I simply kissed him goodbye and left and he was asleep within 3 minutes. The problem is that he still wakes up after 45 min (even for his morning sleep) and my presence just agitates him (whether it's just my voice or a hand on his chest), I'm not sure what to do as I don't think w2s would work. I've been standing outside his door at 45 min and have been in there when he stirs, but again it wakes him up even more and doesn't send him to sleep - well, it does eventually but took 15 min yesterday. This morning I only went in briefly and shushed a few times (he immediately got really worked up) and then I left again, and his mantra cries escalated. When I went in it turned into near hysteria, and I just got him up. Any suggestions?

[Antie66]

A short update: yesterday we had two 45-min naps and this morning again. It throws the whole routine out! Yesterday we ended up having a nap together late afternoon and actually slept for .5 hrs followed by a good night. Looking at the days below, do you think him waking after 45 min is just habit, or do I need to increase A even further? When I get him out of the room he's usually fine, not super cranky or anything. I'm consistently doing 3 hrs A now and am wondering whether I should try for 3hrs15? We've made amazing progress these past days and he is now pretty much falling asleep by himself every nap (however if he wakes up after 45 min he's very difficult to settle, if at all) and the nights have also improved (EW still a problem, but a bit better yesterday).

Tuesday 5-1

WU 6.45
A 6.45 - 9.45.(3hrs)
S 9.45 - 10.30 (45 min)
A 10.30 - 12.20 (1hr50)
S 12.20 - 1.05 (45 min) (in pram)
A 1.05 - 4 (3hrs)
S 4 - 5.20 (in my bed together)
BT 7.45

NW + E 11.30 - 11.50
NW + E 4.20 - 4.50
NW 5.30 - 5.40
WU 7.15

Today
WU 7.15
A 7.15 - 10.20
S 10.20 - 10.50 (30 min) (did poo)
A 10.50 - 1.45 (2hrs55)
S 1.45 - 3.10
A 3.10 - 6.20
BT 6.20

[trimbler]

It's hard when they're 'screaming', isn't it, but I've also known occasions where each of mine have done this, the final loud scream and then silence (sleep) sounds very familiar. DD would actually show me she didn't want me interfering by pushing me away whenever I went in and getting more agitated. I actually make it a habit to go to the loo just after putting her down, usually any cries have finished by the time I'm out, but if she seems upset at that point, I'll pop back in to make sure everything's ok - sometimes she's thrown her bunny down the other end of the cot and can't find it, since it's pitch black in there, for example. Otherwise, I can usually tell if it's an "I need you"/"I feel worried"(eg in new place)/"I'm OT and annoyed as I really want to get to sleep now but need to block everything else out"... Does that make sense? How long have you tried leaving him to his own devices when he wakes early from a nap? He may surprise you by resettling himself - even just calming himself is progress and learning, even if he doesn't always manage to actually get back to sleep that time.

Yes why not try 3h15, see how it goes... But I didn't quite follow what you meant by 'this morning again' - a 45min nap? But it looks like 1.5h? Followed by a 2h A time?? Am I just reading it wrong?

Celebrations for your progress with settling, wonderful news

[Antie66]

My typo - should be 10.50 - I've modified it.

[trimbler]

Ah right - got it, thanks Well, poos can't really be helped, but looking at that day, she did an almost 1.5h nap, 3h after a 30min nap, so I reckon she could easily handle 3h15 first thing, as I said, see what happens...

[creations]

Yes I'd do the increase in A time too, I always went with the first A time to increase first.
It really does sound as though he doesn't want you there.

...it can be quite a mixed feeling to be 'not wanted' when you put so much time and effort into caring for a baby, but focus on the positive side that he is SO confident in you that he is happy to settle alone.  As soon as mine could speak I got the "go now" comment    there's nothing like helping a screaming-in-teething-pain child for hours and hours through the night only for them to say "you can go now" like you're the hired help and have been dismissed.  But it really does show that they only call for us when they need us and as soon as they can manage alone, they do.  I still find it amazing!

[Antie66]

We seem to improve just to regress again :-(

We were down to two NW during which I'd feed and he would always fall back asleep after the first feed (around 11 to midnight) although this could be more challenging during the second feed (4-5am). But he started waking earlier abd more frequent (at first he woke after about 5hrs, then after
more like 3-4, but now more like after 2-3 hours). To start I'd still feed him at each NW but now it's at the point where he's just wanting the comfort rather then waking out of hunger. I just feel like we're back to square 1, only he's much harder to settle and it takes much, much longer, especially during the night (over an hour). I try to settle in cot or leave him alone, whatever he seems to need, but there is SO much screaming. At what point do I start pu/pd, instead of singing, handholding, rocking, patting back or sitting and shushing or just sitting (you name it and I've probably tried it)?

Very desperate again and it's a slippery slope to nursing to sleep and/or taking into bed  ...

[trimbler]

Oh (((hugs))) I'd wondered how you were doing and hoped that no news was good news! Has anything changed during the days recently? The first two things that jumped into my mind (ok, make that three!) were
- perhaps he's needing a change in routine (what's your whole day's EASY looking like?)
- could he be teething and thus in discomfort?
- has he been having any new foods recently which might be causing discomfort - any changes in BMs, etc?

[creations]

Any teeth coming?
Teeth can always feel like it's back to square one.

Sorry you're feeling desperate again. hugs

[Antie66]

Hi Creations & Trimbler, I'm back again with a positive update and another question ...

You were both right, we had major discomfort (possibly from food or teething) and two teeth a couple of days later. He is just such a happy, smiley boy during the day that I didn't even expect anything. But the day after the horrible night of 6 NW and a lot of screaming he did 7 poos in 24 hours (I kid you not) and a couple of days later we noticed the teeth having come through. He has become a bit more grumpy and whining during the day, not happy for very long, but seeming bored quickly and definitely frustrated, as he wants so much (moving, standing) but can't do anything yet and I guess he's probably teething some more... My friends say it's normal.

Sleep wise we seem to be on a steady routine. After waking up during his first nap after 45 min again for a while, I've increased the first A time to 3.5 hours for the last few days, which resulted in a 1 hour and 20 minute (sometimes even 30!) nap again (Yay!!). The second nap is still a bit tricky, usually he wakes up after 45 min, after which I nurse him to sleep to get another 45 minutes out of him or if this does not work, take him out in the pram a little later and he'll usually nod off. Both naps he is now able to fall asleep in his cot by himself (after our nap routine, which just ends with a kiss and me leaving him with his comforter), without a boob in sight, going to bed awake. It is nothing less but AMAZING!!! I am so, so thankful to you both for your support and advice and teaching me about activity times, etc. (I have even been able to advise my friend with great success, but I gave you guys all the credit!!). I think I need to try to also increase the second activity time, which is currently at 3 hours 15, to see whether this improves the second nap.

Night time is still a little problematic, but I may have too high expectations, so please advise! He's on 3 good solids meals a day and still gets plenty of milk feeds, and usually a full feed around 3-4pm plus another full feed at BT. But he still wakes at 11pm (latest, sometimes as early as 10pm) at which point I feed him (he falls asleep on the boob and I put him back in cot) and then a second NW pretty much 4 hours later (just before 3am). He also goes back to sleep quite well (usually on the boob again) after this second waking. Though he does pretty much take full feeds at both these NW, he is very sleepy and doesn't always seem to 'need' it, drinks very slowly, nods off in between a bit. Then he ALWAYS wakes between 5-6am, which in my book is quite early (although it's usually nearer 5.30am I still find that a bit early) - and he's not hungry, just awake. Is there anything I can do about stretching his waking up time to say 6.30-7am? At the moment, I tend to feed him and do a nappy change, put him back in his cot, leave him to 'chat' to himself for a while, but after about 10 minutes he usually gets fed up and starts to be more noisy (Crying) until I come to start the day with him. I've tried leaving him when he wakes up, but again, it's usually about 5-10 min (at most) before he starts crying for attention. I've tried taking him into bed to feed him there in the hope he would sleep some more, but he is just awake. He genuinely seems to be finished sleeping, as he'll be happy and smiling and happily get through the first A time of 3.5 hours. So I'm wondering whether I may be able to change anything routine wise to get him to sleep longer in the morning? And do I really need to give him 2 milk feeds during the night?

Routine now roughly looks like this

WU between 5.15-5.30 am (leave in cot as long as possible, feed, change, put back in cot and leave as possible... usually around get him out at 5.45am)
A 3.5 hrs
S for 1 hour 20-30
A 3 hrs 15
S for 45 min
nurse for 15 min
S for 45 min
A 3 hours
BT

If the second nap does not 'work' and I don't get him back to sleep, he goes to bed between 6-6.30pm (usually closer to 6.30pm), if he does get a decent nap his wake up time is usually at 4pm and he goes to bed at 7-7.30pm.

[creations]

It is nothing less but AMAZING!!!

Yay!! That's what I love to read

I might be a bit confused by the routine times.
It looks like your routine is roughly this:
WU 5.30
A 3hr 30
S 9 - 10.30
A 3hr 30 (as you are about to increase this A to extend nap 2)
S 2 - 3.30 (although just now this is 2 x 45 min with a feed in the middle)
A 3hr
BT 6.30
But I must be missing something if BT is usually 7-7.30pm (and I make it more like 6.30 on those A and S times) it doesn't feel like it's adding up to me, what have I missed?

If BT is around 6.30pm and WU around 5.30am I would suggest trying to move the entire day on in 15 min increments which takes about a week overall.  There's a sticky or FAQ on day light saving (clock change) which details it a bit more.  The important aspect to moving a routine this way is to move everything, especially the E times as LO is then more likely to shift with the times.  So after a week you could be looking at 6.30am WU and 7.30pm BT.  However if BT is already 7.30pm I don't think I would suggest moving it later but rather looking again at the routine times to see what needs changing.  Hope that makes sense.

How old is he now?

[Antie66]

He's 7 months next week. My star!!!

It's a bit difficult with explaining the general  times because in the morning he either stays in his cot a while and often even when we do 'get up' we first feed and have cuddles in my bed, so I treat all of that time as 'half activity time' as trimbler once suggested. So I never really start counting WU until 6am. Hope that makes sense

So more like this:

"WU" 6am
A 3.5
S 9.30-11
A 11-2.15
S 2.15-4
BT 7 (this only becomes 7.30pm if I have to nurse to extend naps, which sometimes increases the total duration of that nap [sleep-nurse-sleep] to 2hrs, and up to a few days ago I sometimes had to do this for both naps. Other reason of it becoming 7.30 is if he would be fussy to put down because of OT)

His first A time is in effect quite long, but it's low key and quite 'relaxing', so he doesn't get OT.. It's our first baby, so a quiet house, daddy's off to work early morning, so we do Feeding and cuddles in bed, then he spends time in bouncer, under mobile, just watching me do chores, we have breakfast and walk the dog (in baby carrier back pack) and have lots more cuddles in between these things. There's little real baby play (which we save for pm) and no flashing lights, bouncy music or tv ... :-))

So maybe I can try to shift to 7.30pm bedtime - although I must say when we have had those (and not bc he was OT), he never woke any later in the morning :-(

[Antie66]

Last night was like this

BT 7
NW 10.30
NW 1.45
EW 4.45

I fed him, left him ... Went back in to settle, out again ... Done this a few times, then changed nappy, settling and leaving two more times. (The reason I leave is because he is so wake, me being there doesn't help, he is not crying, just awake and playing). At 5.45 I took him into my bed  he nursed and slept until 6.50. Cuddles and then WU at 7am.

Today I increased both A times to 3.5 hrs and that worked super well:

WU 7am
A 3.5 hrs
S 10.30 - 11.55 (1hr20)
A 3.5 hrs
S 3.25 - 4.45 (1hr20)

So I think about a BT of 7.30-7.45? And then see what the night brings.

[creations]

Today I increased both A times to 3.5 hrs and that worked super well:

Oh yes that day looks good!

So I think about a BT of 7.30-7.45? And then see what the night brings.

Yes, also sounds like a good plan.

WRT moving the day on. A times don't get longer for this, just everything moves (so, ok, the first few days things do get further apart but then they go back in line).  I'm not really sure how much those early morning snuggles might be effecting him, perhaps in the habit of waking at 4.30 to get a feed and the hope of moving into your bed instead of going back to sleep and waiting until it really is morning?

WRT night feeds you asked in your previous post. I believe it is quite normal for BF babies this age to have 2 NFs.  I'm not much help when it comes to BF advice as I was unable to so mine was on formula and 1 NF which we dropped about 6-7 months as he was fine without.
You could perhaps post as a question on the BF board if you need some clarification of how many night feeds or advice on what to do at the 4.30am NF...I know if it was me I'd be looking to move that feed to WU time but like I said I am no good on BF advice.

[Antie66]

Well ... Certainly a different night and I think better ... After a BT of 7.45pm he woke at 22.30 and I fed him, but I really shouldn't have bothered, as it was clearly for comfort and I actually had to prod him a bit to keep drinking! Then again at 23.45 with a more proper feed and then he woke up at 5.45am. He almost went back to sleep after his feed, but decided to wake up properly after all. Left in his cot until 6.30 and has gone to bed (10.15) for  his first nap - this was a bit too late (woke after 30-40min OT, but nursed back to sleep). So the later BT did not really result in a later WU time, but there was no 3-4am feed ...

I would like to aim for one NF around midnight and then the next at WU, which should hopefully be no earlier than 6am (ideally a little later than that even). It has happened a few times that his first NW would be at midnight or even closer to 1am and we also had nights that after a feed around 10-11pm he would not wake until 5-6am, so to me it seems that he can cope without feeds for longer spells. I'll ask about this on the BF forum as you suggest.