shifting 4 yo body clock

[Aishi]

Hello

Im back about my chronic ew ds. As many of you may know ive tried everything under the sun to get rid of ew. For a long time BT was set at 7.30 with wu 6.30/6 but after a few days accumulated ot led to 5.15/5.30 wus and i was just going in a cycle. So I've been doing 12/12.5h days after wu which has meant 6/6.30 BT and wu was still 6 (but longer ons iykwim?)

Anyway wu was 5.15 today (6.15 pm BT) so now even if i do 6 pm bt I'm going to be back in an ot cycle and ew. I need radical ideas to shift his body clock. Anyone had any success with this??

FYI when he was three he had a one hour nap and 10pm BT and still woke at 6!! (That was a one off BT). I've done gro clock, reward chart, take away TV time etc. Nothing like that works.

Really hope someones got some ideas for me. I'm not a morning person and i don't want pre 6.30 wus! Plus im stressed about fact he starts school in September and his behaviour gets worse when he is ot...

Tia xx

[jessmum46]

I reckon you've got two options Aishi - either treat it like DST and use one of those strategies: How to Adjust to Daylight Savings or treat it like jet lag and just jump all at once to the bedtime you want.  Expect it to be rough for a few days but the usual jet lag advice is that LOs take a day to adjust for every hour change.  If you do that I would make sure his bedroom is totally blacked out to avoid the light waking him.

Just as a thought.....what's his sleep needs do you think?  Average at 4yo is 11.5h total (Typical Amounts of Day and Night Sleep) - is it possible he needs less?  Just wondering if you get some 11.5h nights then some shorter ones, whether in fact his regular sleep needs are a touch lower than you think ie it's not accumulated OT, he's actually UT and you need to set BT accordingly later?

[younger I know, but DD at 2.5y has actually settled into sleeping about 11h30-45 at night so wondering if your DS could take a bit less?]

[Aishi]

Thanks for the quick reply Katherine! I *think* the minimum ons he can handle is 11h because he has been doing between 11-12h lately. I think his body clock is set at 6 which is why wu shifts earlier.

Ill have a read of the DST link!

Thanks again!

[Aishi]

Hmm idt a gradual shift will work since his ns and wu is so variable anyway.

I might just shift BT to 8 and hope for the best. Even If his TSN is 11h that *should* mean 7 wu once he's settled into it. But what do I do if wu starts creeping earlier?

[*Liz*]

I've finally shifted DS by moving to a 8pm bedtime, but it took a good week to see any change, and more like 3 to get him to finally fix at 6-6.30 WU.

A one of late night night wouldn't shift most kids WU I don't think.

I also had to be pretty strict about not waking me before 6.30am when his clock came on. If he does he loses screen time. Basically his desire for early morning screen time was driving his inability to go back to sleep. And because I allowed it in the am to save our sanity. Then he got too much so I rationed it at other times. And basically reinforced the pattern. So if he comes in pre 6.30am he loses the iPad.

[*Becky*]

I presume he has a gro clock? DD is a chronic EW'er too but that has really helped us. She still IMO does not always get enough sleep but she does stay in bed until 7am and on quite a few occasions drifts off again.

[Aishi]

That's my ds to a tee Liz!! He wakes early, I let him watch dinosaur documentaries on my phone and it reinforces ew cos he wants to watch TV and can't go back to sleep!

He does have a gro clock Becky. Its set at 6.45 which he was fine to wait for when he was waking post 6 am but won't if he's up earlier like today (understandable!)

I guess I'll have to bite the bullet and stick to the 8 pm BT for a few weeks. Hopefully by the time school starts he may have a more sensible wu time!

I was co sleeping for a few days in hope he will sleep past 5am wu but that didn't work either and he actually told me that he doesn't want me to sleep with him . But if I don't co sleep he wants a dim nightlight on and when he wakes at 5 he def won't go back to sleep cos of the light. It becomes a no win situation

He was up at 5.15 today so still do 8 BT and then just ride out ot?

[*Liz*]

I would put him in bed at about 7.30pm so he is def asleep by 8pm. Lots of stories and low key stuff to get there - my DS isn't too bad when OT but DD gets very hyper  . Books is often the magic to keep them both calm.

Regrading the nightlight - again I really think being woken by it is a novelty thing that will go away. Just like if you moved house and there was a bit more noise and light coming in the window. They honestly do adjust, just that we try too hard to help them  . We moved to a house on a main road last year, DS sleeps at the back so he isn't disturbed (he is my EWer), DD sleeps on the front where the traffic starts at 5am and the sun rises in that direction as well. Makes no difference at all after the initial 'getting used to it' bit. I've recently been sleeping in the spare room at the front (because DH is snoring and driving me crazy!), and after about 6 weeks or so I have stopped being woken by traffic noise as well (I was waking and then nodding back off again).

Also as you shift the wake up the need for food/ have a wee etc will adjust as well. Make sure you do a milky drink or supper if tea is pretty early currently.

If I was asleep with DS there is no way he would sleep past that initial stir either!!

I did have to be pretty firm about not ignoring the fro-clock. Yes, it is understandable that they don't want to self entertain for 1.5hrs, but if you seriously want them to follow it you have to follow through regardless yk?

School will help a bit I think. DS was still very prone to EWs, but especially towards the end of term would tend to wake at around 6-6.20am after a 7pm bedtime. Less so towards the end of the year, but my DS is almost 6 now so to be expected really. He needs 9.5-10hrs of sleep a day, more like 10hrs when you add school in. DD who is 4 and a bit is more like 11.5-12hrs. DS has never ever been beyond 11hrs though, even from nap drop at age 2.5.

[creations]

he wants a dim nightlight on and when he wakes at 5 he def won't go back to sleep cos of the light. It becomes a no win situation

How about setting that night light on a timer so it automatically goes off at say midnight when he is asleep and if/when he wakes at 5am there is total black out so he can get back to sleep? Have it set to come back on again at 6.30 if necessary (I'm thinking if he wakes early he may need to see to get to the toilet or get a drink etc before his gro clock sun comes up but this may not be needed).

I would set BT at 8pm and ride it out if it was me. Also if you do get OT EWs the earlier the better, when it becomes the MOTN it's easier all round for it to be treated as a NW and he will have more chance of going back to sleep.

He was up at 5.15 today so still do 8 BT and then just ride out ot?

I would.

Good luck!
(posted with Liz)

[Aishi]

Ok good points ladies. Yes i was putting his night light on a timer creations but then motn nws he would wake me to put it back on but maybe its like Liz said that he was waking out of novelty. I didn't really try nightlight for long before I decided to co sleep.

Perhaps i need to be more consistent and realistic about his sleep needs. So 8pm BT with night light on and no getting out of bed till Mr sun at 7. Now is it ok to tell him that if he gets out of bed at nws I will turn his night light off?

[Buntybear]

Agree with liz that the only way we got later WUs was by shifting BT later. This coincided with BST here and the lighter evenings tbh as he was just not going to bed at 7.30 but as a result he gets up later!

However this does mean you loose some evening. Olly BT is now 8-8.30 but he is not OT in the day  . WU today was 6.45 after an 8.45 BT hoping we may get he down earlier tonight but he has never been a child to lie nicely in bed till he drops off. If he Is not tired then he fights BT

[michaeljacknnugg]

Having just shifted DS not only through an 8hr time difference but onto a later bedtime and wu too (bed 9-10ish a lot of nights), I would just jump as far as you possibly can from his usual bedtime and stick with it.

It does help that my DS can keep going until he literally falls down, but I was surprised at how much the big jump helped and how quickly he adjusted to it.

[Aishi]

That's interesting to know. My ds can stay up for ages too but he does literally fall asleep as soon as he is in bed. However his day has to be at least 12h long or we get BT shenanigans too. I expect he will fall asleep quick enough at BT but will have nws or ew from ot short term paid for long term gain eh?

[michaeljacknnugg]

Yes, I'd think so!

[Aishi]

He was asleep by 7.50 (in the dark since he didn't argue about it. Had two brief nws where he insisted he didn't want to sleep but stayed in bed. Wu was 6 so still a short night but at least today will be a shorter day...