1yr old - does this sound OT to you?

[Mackjack]

I've had to give up. It's 13.30 and he will not nap.  He's just going to have to go without sleep today. It's ridiculous but I don't know what else to do.

[Mackjack]

Sorry to keep posting. He couldn't' possibly be dropping the nap could he?!! That seems such a ridiculous question but seriously, since he was born, his routine has changed so fast, I cannot keep up with him. He will have the same routine for maybe 4 weeks tops, if I'm lucky, then it changes. He's sitting on the floor now playing with his toys happily. How can that be?!?!? I know I'm going to have to put him to bed early and I'm dreading it as I don't know how early to go and I know that there's just no way he will sleep right through or wake at an acceptable time after such a ridiculous day.

[weaver]

Hey hun, sorry you've been through the mill today!  I would definitely have been heading to the shed at various points

What time did you put him to bed in the end?  I remember on another thread having the strong feeling that LO was probably LSN. 

To me, what has happened looks like this.   Earlier in the week, he woke at 6am or earlier and napped at 12.30, and generally doing an under 11 hour night with at least a 1 hr 30 nap. He had a great sleep on Tuesday night, just shy of 12 hours, with only very brief NWs and woke up at 7am.  And then he didn't want a nap at 12.30, trying for an hour probably gave him a chance to rest a bit/get determined not to have a nap. 

I stick to my theory that he's on the LSN side. I wouldn't say he's nap dropping, I'd say you need now to consider where his nap falls in the day - clearly it needs to be about 6 hours after WU, and might well need to be capped to preserve night sleep on days he wakes up at 7am. 

On the NWs, if he's settling in seconds, is there a chance that you don't need to intervene?   I would try to reduce the amount of time you have to spend out of bed.

Hope you've got some nice treat for yourself after a tough day.

[Mackjack]

Thanks so much for looking at this.  Yes you mentioned LSN before and it certainly looks like you're right. I got him to bed at 17.55 in the end - he went down with no fuss.

I've just looked back at the EASYs that I posted.  On most days he generally eventually went down at 12.30 which seems a stupidly long A time on the days he woke at 5.30ish but its almost as if he's trying to assert a new set nap time. When he went to one nap I set it at 12pm regardless of A time because he had no sleepy cues. Could it be that - do I just need to attempt his nap closer to 12.30? And like you say try to work out if it needs capping?

Its ridiculous how happy he was this afternoon with no sleep....

As for the NWs I always try not to go to him - sometimes I get away with it, sometimes not. Normally if I can see on the monitor that he's sitting up,  I know that means I'm eventually going to have to go in there.

Have you any theories as to why he has NWs during a long night but eventually wakes up happy but no NWs during a short night but wakes unhappy?

Must say I'm dreading tonight. ...

[Mackjack]

I'm back. I know we concluded LO was LSN but I'm so confused....

So now,  we are getting BT resistance and EWs. We get the occasional NW  but they tend to be short and fairly easily settled. He goes down easily for his naps, rarely resists but every BT is a battle with us going in and out to his room.  So he's going to bed around 7ish and waking between 5-5.50am with 5.50am being his favourite time.And I can't work out if this is OT/UT or something else.

His nap has gone back to happening around 12pm. He does around 2hrs - sometimes we cap it as we've really got no idea if he's fighting BT due to too much sleep. And then sometimes I'm not sure if the BT fighting is due to OT so I try to put him down earlier but that doesn't work either.  The thing is, the other morning, he was really obviously tired - whining and yawning - but when it came to nap time he fought like he does at BT which he doesn't normally do. As I knew he was tired, I figured this was OT behaviour - and as he demonstrates that behaviour at BT , I'm not convinced the BT behaviour isn't OT too. Make sense??

This has been going on for a few weeks - too long for it to be teething-related I think. And I think the BT fighting started one day when he had a nap of around 2hr45 which made me think that too much day sleep was the problem (hence why we sometimes cap the nap) but we have experienced BT fighting on a nap as short as 1hr30 so...?

Here are a few days EASY (just to point out, he had a very sore bottom over the past few days and some of these wake ups were due to that - I've noted where)

WEDS
WU 5.50
S 12.05 woke crying at 13.40 - couldn't attempt to get him back to sleep as someone was at the door. So he only had 1hr 35
BT tried a bit earlier due to short nap. Took WIWO from 18.30 til 19.15 to get him to sleep. Mixture of playing and crying

THURS
WU 5.50
S 12.05 Woke himself at 14.05 (2hrs)
BT Tried at 18.30 - took 35mins - lots of crying with me in the room (turned out to be sore bottom)
NW 45 mins later (he had pooed which had irritated his sore bottom - this caused the crying at BT) Took 20mins to change and settle him

FRI
WU 5something -(can't remember exact time)
S 12 - woke at 13.20 due to sore bottom - DH changed him and he went back to sleep. DH woke him at 14.30
BT 19.10 - DH said it took 3 short returns to his room

SAT
WU 5.20
S DH was out with him at nap time so he went down slightly later at 12.15 and woke after 1hr 35
BT DH tried from 18.35. Went down at 19.00
NW 4.30
NW 5am

SUN
WU 6.50
S DH took a while to get him down at 12.15. Woke at 1hr 30. DH got him back to sleep and woke him at 14.40
BT tried from 18.45. Settled for 10mins then started crying again. Finally settled at 19.10
NW 2.15 leaked nappy. Didn't settle til around 3.30.

MON
WU 5.40 - put him in our bed and he slept until 6.40
S put him down slightly later (12.35) due to late WU. Bit of laughing and slapping me in the face but went down quickly

I think if he was going to bed with no trouble at 19.00 and waking at 5.50, I would probably accept that that is how long he sleeps at night. But why the fighting at BT if that's the case? And the occasional NWS?? Does his nap need to be pushed later ?? (Bare in mind the latest he can sleep til is about 14.45 as I have to do the school run). Any more help very much appreciated!!

[weaver]

Well, all LOs wake up sometimes, so there isn't always a clear explanation. And bless his sore little bot, hope that's better now.

I think it's maybe time to take the guess work out of it.  On the previous page, he was getting some solid later WUs, and that was with his nap at 12.30.  If I were you, I would set his nap at that time. I would try to keep the nap at the same length for a week (I would try 1.5 hour) and see what happens.  Be rigidly consistent, as much as you can, and see what impact it has. 

If there is a day on which he wakes later, say 7ish, then push the nap later too, and shorten it to maybe an hour. 

In the end, it depends on what's important to you as a family.  I'm very keen on a predictable BT, but not everyone is as devoted to it as me.

[Mackjack]

Hi. Yes I like predictability too! I've let him sleep today as late as I could( read this post too late)  so he's had 2 hr 15 nap starting at 12.30.  Do you think I should start with capping naps at 1hr 30 with a view to lengthening them if needed?

[Mackjack]

Sorry talking nonsense.  Thought it was later than it was when I was reading your post and was about to wake him but actually it was 14.35 and he woke himself.  So he did 2 hrs exactly. 

[weaver]

Yeah, if it were me, I would try capping the nap at 1 hr 30 and see how he fares for a few days.  You can let him sleep longer, or wake him earlier depending on results

[Truly Blessed]

I agree with the above Honey, good luck!

((HUGS))

x.

[Mackjack]

Thanks both. I will report back - or, more likely, come back with more questions!

[Truly Blessed]

Thanks both. I will report back - or, more likely, come back with more questions!

LOL, we'll be here x.

[Mackjack]

I'm back DS is now almost 15months.

Ok, so we've had *some* success with slightly later WUs and we only get NWs on the odd occasion.

We are at the point where we are capping naps at 1.5hrs BUT we do still get some EWs plus now he's started to resist naps and BT and I don't know why. I still don't think I'm getting his sleep "right" and I just can't figure it out. His wind down routine used to be we would take him up to his room, cuddle him, he would snuggle into our shoulder getting drowsy, then we'd put him down and he'd go to sleep. But now (and this started just as Granny started looking after him 3 days a week although I really don't think it's anything to do with her as he's doing it no matter who puts him down) we take him up and the second we are in his room he is literally diving over our shoulders and struggling to get straight in the cot. We put him down, leave the room and he stands up and shouts/cries. We go back, lie him down, then he settles himself to sleep. This  happens 95% of the time and is quite quick- rarely he will just go straight to sleep, sometimes we have to go back in a few times and this can take some time.

We've tried lots of things to help the EW - later/earlier nap, later/earlier BT. Seems if he wakes anytime from about 6am he seems fairly happy. If he wakes 5-something, he seems like he's still tired but he is IMPOSSIBLE to get back to sleep. Weaver, you suggested capping the nap at 1hr30 - I must admit I was reluctant to do that at first as it seemed such a short nap so I started capping at 2hrs. We were getting some OT WUs during naps at 1.5hrs where we could get him back to sleep. This made me think that capping at 1.5hrs would be too short but we were still getting EWs at this point so I thought maybe he's OT because he's having EWs and if the nap was shorter, he would sleep more at night and be more restored. So we've started capping at 1hr 30 but like I said we are getting this resistance and occasional EWs. He gives me absolutely no sleepy cues so nap and BT is total guesswork. I'm trying to stick to a BT of around 18.30 (that's the time we take him to bed).

I've searched this forum and anyone else who is having similar problems at this age is still on 2 naps but as we're on 1 I just feel like we've got nowhere to go!

So to recap  - please (if you can!) any suggestions as to what the sleep resistance is about, is his routine ok, is capping the nap at 1.5hrs the right thing? Anyway I can get him to wake up later? I'd love to just let him sleep but that's not going to happen is it?! Just to note, not sure what you're going to suggest but nap time can't end any later than about 14.30/40 as we have the school run to do.

Here's our EASY for the past few days:
SUN
WU 5.50am
S messed around at nap time although looked tired. Asleep by about 12.30. Woken by knock on door at 14.05 (1hr 35) but happy
BT 18.30 - stood up and cried when I left the room, Realised he had a dirty nappy, changed him, asleep 1915

MON
WU 6.50 (this is V late for him and NEVER happens unless he's had a NW)
S took up at 12.30 - messed around a little, asleep 12.40ish. Woke at about 1hr 15, v upset. This was a strange day as he was upset a lot - possible tteething
S Stood up when I left the room as usual. Had to go back in. Asleep 19.00

TUES
WU 6.05ish
S stood up once but laid back down himself without me needing to go back into the room. Asleep 12.35. Woke him after 1.5hrs
BT in bed 18.45 but kept standing  up and crying on and off. Had to keep going into him. Asleep 19.30

WEDS
W 6am
S 12.15 -went straight to sleep
BT 18.30 straight to sleep
NW 2.20 - 3.30 am. Kept settling then crying - gave meds and had to keep going into his room

THURS
WU 7.10 am - VERY Late for him but due to NW I think. But think this late waking may have given us problems over the next few days (?)
S 12.20 - cried for a bit then straight to sleep. Not sure what time he woke as DH had him this day but I do remember he didn't have a good nap (so less than 1.5hrs)
BT DH tried to get him to bed early due to short nap but he filled his nappy which delayed BT. Asleep about 18.50

FRI
WU. 5.55 sat quietly for a little while
N 12.30 v upset. Had to hold him for a little while. Woke him at 14.00 (1.5hrs)
BT 18.45ish

SAT
WU 6.10
S DH took him up at 12.15 WOULD NOT GO TO SLEEP. Was laughing and messing about in cot. Took 50 mins. Finally asleep at 13.10. Woke upset at 45mins, DH got him back to sleep. Woke himself about 14.40ish happy
BT Messed about again. Stripped his clothes and sleeping bag off. Asleep about 19.20

SUN
WU 5.15 grumpy, wanted to go back to sleep. Tried for a while - was falling asleep on me when holding him but wouldn't go back to sleep in cot. Took in our  bed (rarely do this nowadays) and I think he nodded off for about 20mins. WU 6.05

[Mackjack]

He's done exactly the same today.  Took him up for his nap at 12.15 - 45 minutes of taking his sleeping bag and clothes off (had to redress him 3 times). No crying until right atthe end. Finally asleep at 13.00. Woke him after 1.5 hrs.  He was  a bit grumpy but ok this afternoon. 

So tonight i thought ok, will try BT a little later - 18.45 - has  taken his sleeping bag off once so far. Started whinging so just put him back in it.  He was smiling at me but rubbing his eyes. I didn't engage with him at all other than to say goodnight.  Standing and whinging at the mo. Seriously what on earth is he playing at??? There's always something with this kid! !!

[Mackjack]

He's with granny tomorrow and I've got no idea what times/duration to tell her for nap and BT. I am totally at a loss.