how to arrange the naps if DS is LSN to avoid NW?

[koe2moe]

Gejun, 对不起，我住在国外的。现在是白天工作的时候。电话不方便。还有为了你的安全，最好不放你的电话号码在open forum 上。

[koe2moe]

Gejun, 如果我贴英文，你看得懂， 对吧？因为其他的人可以看我给的提议是否适合。

[koe2moe]

Please correct me if I am wrong in my understanding.  1) I think if he wakes up briefly in a nap or at night sleep and goes back to sleep, those are natural sleep transitions.  You may not need to go to help him.  2) the routines regarding the exact time, they are just examples.  Every child is different and every family has different needs.  You don't have to try to match the exact time.  Routine is important to have an expected pattern of events.  The times change as the child grows anyway.  3) if you feel that it works better with 3 naps, then it is good to do 3 naps.  However, we usually find that if there is too much sleep (too many hours of naps or nap too close to bedtime,) LO becomes not tired enough for a long restful night sleep.  Sometimes Lo needs to be taught to do longer night sleep when we cut the day sleep a bit.  If 3 naps work best for him now, you can keep them.  When he gets older, at some point, that last nap will have to go.  You can consider earlier night bed time when you don't offer the 3rd nap.  It is just a suggestion if you want to try.

I understand how tired you are.  Another option is to accept that Lo wakes around 6 and you go to bed earlier to allow you more sleep.  Lo changes very fast, so when you fix it now, it will change again.  Lots of hugs. 

看得懂吗？ 我可以用中文在贴一遍，没问题。

[gejun]

贴中文吧，麻烦了，我怕有误解了某些细节。我贴了电话是没考虑周到，确实目前很焦虑

[koe2moe]

I post the same things in Chinese.

有几点我想解释：
1） 睡觉醒来，然后再睡，可以当作一直睡就好了。因为睡觉是一个不停转变的自然过程。很多时候我们不用去帮他的。
2） 我们提供的时间表，只是做参考。你不需要按照列出的时间。当孩子成长的过程，时间是不停地改变得。
3） 如果3次午睡最适合你们，那你可以找你自己的routine. 但是过不多久，宝宝大一点，第三个小睡应该不能留的。

我明白你现在很困，如果你的孩子是六点起来，那你早点睡觉吧。这个阶段会很快过去的。 应该珍惜这点宝宝的时间去享受可爱的宝宝。放松一点吧。

[gejun]

你可能误解我的问题了，我的问题是现在不管几次小睡，他都会night waking, 有时长达1个小时，一夜醒好几次。这让我很担心他，我也休息不好，早醒我也可以接受，但多次的夜醒肯定影响健康，我很担心他。
我的感觉是因为他是lsn, 所以很难平衡白天和晚上的睡眠，以前他只睡3个catnap时，晚上不醒，即使醒，吃了奶很快睡，后来白天睡长了后，就开始早醒和夜醒了，开始可能是UT,后来可能是OT.
所以我想要调整，规律他的作息。
我想我现在面临的问题有两个：(请把这两个问题也翻译给他们吧)
1、一个合适他这种LSN的routine, 关于这个，论坛里的Marti85和Katie80都给了建议,。目前我在做的是Marti85的建议，但效果不明显，还是夜醒，但我想任何一个routine不可能一两天就完全成功了，所以我想再坚持一周看看，但我怀疑我在执行时很多细节不对，例如早上wake up的时间，希望她能明确的再讲下。


2、如何执行一个routine, 例如早上超过什么时间叫醒，什么时间放到床上睡觉，如果他花了很长时间才睡着，到了醒的时间怎么办，具体问题看我上面用中文写的吧。
我觉得如果我执行的不对，可能怎么坚持也不会得到好的结果。

我多么希望享受这个过程，可是连续两个月我和baby都睡不好觉的时候，我就很茫然和焦虑了，身体状况也差了。

[gejun]

The problem I met is not early waking, 6:00 is acceptable for me, but long night waking is terrible, if Lo could sleep all night without long night waking, one or two or three nap are all acceptable, since I think night sleep is more important for baby and me, when he grows up, he needn’t day nap someday, but night sleep will last whole life.
 I just found he is LSN just from one month ago, his nap and night sleep are different everyday, it’s so difficult to banlance his day and night sleep.
 Now, I want to help him sleep better, I think need to solve two problems:
First: how to do a new routine in details,

 about WU, when put him down for nap, when wake him, how to do if he take long time to fall sleep, how to do if he wake ealier, like I post above, because I doubt I did in a wrong way, if that, I will never get a good result even the routine is suitable for us. Why need couple of weeks to assess a routine, because LO need couple of weeks to settle him quickly and the length of sleep will reach the schedule? Or just need couple of weeks to lock the schedule. If he cann’t get it at the first days, how to deal with his overtired.

Second: a routine suitable for us,
thanks for these lovely ladies here, Marti85 and Katie80 gave me suggestion and hugs. I did the routine by Marti85 over ten days, I will persist it for one more week to assess if it is suitable for me. If not, I will take katie80 suggestion or other options. For routine by Marti85, which from a book, I read the book recently but cann’t understand the WU time well, maybe My English is not good, I didn’t know when WU should be if LO total sleep requirement is 13hr to 13hr 20mins. The books state 6:00~6:30,.
It will be nice if Marti85 could explain for it and you make a translation for me.


I know baby grow so fast, maybe 3 months later , he will only need one nap as a LSN, things will become easy, but I still want to help him with a happy day and peaceful night, and everyday is predicable. He is my first bay, I understand Mummy is not easy job now.

[Martini~]

Honey - firstly very sorry that I am replying just now, not earlier. I am so busy at work that it really is difficult to follow every thread I was involved, especially when I see lovely ladies helping you here! I haven't managed to go through all you have posted as have no time, but I will try to address the most important & urging matters you ask.

1. Being a LSN
- You write about your son sleep needs a lot, but please be aware Honey that if he is OT he might sleep less that he really needs. My DS was doing 11,5h night + 1.5h of day sleep between 5.5mo and 8mo as had short naps because of nursery what gives you overall 13h and today (10months later he is doing 13.5-14h on average!).
- I would have some doubts frankly speaking if he is a true LSN as he seems to be very tired on this routine you give him, and LSN child would be rather fine with this amount of sleep. It's possible it's cummulated OT of course.
2. NIGHT WAKINGS
- Please be aware that routine is not the only reason for night wakings. There are many different reasons and you should firstly eliminate them. These are:
a/ teething - at that age my LO started teething and we did have 1.5mo of night waking, no matter what kind of routine I tried
b/ self-settling skills - this is very important. Is he an independent sleeper? What do you do when he wakes? Does he have any props like dummy? Is his room darkened and is it silent there?
c/ feeding/ hunger - does he have any NFs still? If not, when had he dropped them? What are his E times during day? How much milk & solids during day he takes?
d/ OT - when younger, LOs tend to STTN even when OT, but when they grow older 6mo+ if they are OT, they can have night waking both long and short because they slept too little during day
d/ UT - of course your LO can be UT, but all the info you provide doesn't suggest that to me. Are his NWs happy/chatty ones? Do you have any problem with him settling for night or naps?
3. WU
Post 6am is a fine WU. You may try to teach your LO to play in his crib without you when he wakes by putting him in the crib during day for independant play. But is he is waking because of OT or hunger, you will not be able to do much more. Have you tried to feed him to sleep when he wakes on any of these night wakings to break the habit of waking and prevent OT?

And now some advice  and questions:
1. How do you react when he wakes at night? Maybe we can tweak that?
2. His waking during long nap suggests OT to me as he is possible to resettle and overall sleeps 2h. Can you put him down 10-15min earlier for this nap?
3. I wouldn't wake in the morning before 6am or at 6am. If he had a NW you may think of waking him at 6:30/7am to prevent sleeping in.

HTH

[koe2moe]

Gejun, 你说，你要问的是关于wake up的问题。还有想知道根据'martii的建议，你是否处理正确，对吗？

What Gejun wants to know is:
NWs have been consistently long now no matter how many naps.  She hopes to help her Lo to have better quality night sleep.
1) she wants to know if she handles it correctly at wake up.  What to do when it takes longer time for him to fall asleep or he wakes up too early?  Gejun is willing to stay close to the routine for longer to see if it suits her Lo.
2) Gejun has been following Marti's suggestion routine for a week and didn't get good results.  She wants to know what wake up time should be for an LO with 13-13h20m sleep needs.  The book seems to say around 6-6:30.

Gejun would like Marti to explain those.  I can help with translation.

My response in my experience and understanding is that, there is no such thing as the wake up time that a child should follow.  The times are references only.  You might go crazy in order to reach a certain time when it is not necessary. 

The usual thing to do for waking up too early from a nap is to move the next nap time or sleep time 15-30 mins earlier because Lo is more tired after a shorter nap.  On the same principle, after a full restful nap, nap time can be 15 mins later to avoid UT.

In Chinese:
一般早醒的处理方法，是将下一个睡眠时间提早15-30分钟，来避免OT的情况。同样避免UT是将睡眠时间延迟10-30分，根据你的宝宝而定。

对，作妈妈真的不容易。你是他的最好的妈妈，别太焦虑。

Mother's job is not easy.  Don't worry too much.  You are the best mother for him.  Hugs

[koe2moe]

Posted with you Marti.  I will translate the main points in Chinese.

[koe2moe]

Gejun,

Marti 的回答。
1）LSN：OT可以引起睡眠短。她觉得你的宝宝可能只是OT，而不是LSN。
2）NW的原因：可以有很多，不一定是routine的问题。譬如：
a）出牙。不舒服引起的NW，routine帮不了。
b）自己帮自己睡觉：这个是重要的，他自己要学的。他用奶嘴？房间够暗和静吗？他醒的时候，你如何反应？
C)  肚子饿：晚上还要吃吗？白天吃得够吗？固体食物跟奶够吗？
d） OT：六个月以上的LO，OT会引起或长或短的NW。
e）UT： UT当然可以引起Nw，但她觉得你的LO，从你的posts看，可能是OT的。他醒来的时候，是开心的?
WU：
早上六点之后是可以的。你可以训练他在床里，自己玩，你不用去。白天放他进床里面习惯自己玩。

最后的提议：
1）NW时，你如何反应，可能我们可以在这些下一点功夫，改变一点点。
2）小睡时醒来，然后又睡过去，应该是OT。你可以早10-15分放下他么？
3）marti不会在六点前叫醒LO。特别是NW之后。大概6：30-7：00，起床，避免睡过头。

[gejun]

最近几天好像没有很长时间的夜醒了，所以我想继续她这个routine 试试。即使他不是一个LSN,我想那本书提到的方法可以帮助lsn修复他们的睡眠，所以想再继续试一下。关于WU的问题，我想确定个时间是想避免由于NW而造成Sleep in, 如果他只能睡11个小时，到6点，由于夜醒，会不会6:00~6:30也属于sleep in了，如果以后他睡眠有规律了，我想不用那么严格，但现在再做这个routine 时不用保持一个固定的时间以避免sleep in吗？因为我发现如果他睡到6:30，会拒绝下午那个20mins的nap.而如果6:00醒，通常不会。这个问题请她再确认下？

我的baby 是个能自己睡觉的小孩，不需要奶嘴或其他任何安抚物，房间也够暗，他晚上醒的时候几乎不哭，有时哭一声然后又睡了，基本不需要我做什么，如果醒的时间很长，我试图安抚或喂奶粉，他也不会很快睡着，反而不太喜欢。我应该怎么反应呢？我担心过度反应会干扰他。
所以关于夜醒，基本我做不了什么，他自己睡回去，因为他几乎不哭。他有时自己说话，有时哭一声，不会大哭或哭很久。

他在5.5个月时，自己停止吃夜奶，一觉睡了11个小时，从那以后没有夜间再喂过。
他早晨醒后会自己在小床里玩，不会哭着喊人；
他吃的很多，白天吃多于800ml的奶，和相当数量的固体糊状食物。
Eat:7：00   240ml formula
       7:20    少量oatmeal cereal
       9:30    90~110ml formula
      11:20   solid food, rice, vegetable,fish ,一共150g 大概，好几大勺。 water
       14:30  150~180ml formula
        17:00   solid, fruit, rice
        18:30   240ml formula

我不知道应该喂他多少固体食物，尤其在中午，喂到他不吃吗？他从不拒绝，好像喂多少都吃，我有时感觉差不多就不再多喂了，他也没有非要吃，我没有喂饱他吗？白天的nap会不会因为饥饿醒了再睡回去？

另一个她问的回答：晚上或白天睡觉时，我把他放床上，没遇到哭的情形，晚上通常3~8分钟。白天通常他如果很累，会很快睡着，有时却会花上10分钟，不哭，是不是不累？我不知她所指可能遇到的problem 是指什么，如果不能在两分钟内睡着就算有问题吗？

如果夜醒时间长，通常都需要怎样再resettle 他呢？我好像没有什么办法，只能等他自己睡着，他也不哭，但感觉他也想睡回去。

[gejun]

另外，koe2moe, 在执行一个routine时，通常都是怎么做的，固定时间放到床上吗？还是留几分钟给他入睡，是不是如果你固定一个时间，等一两周他适应后就会很快入睡，否则你怎么知道他到底睡了多久呢？除非守在他的房间里吧。尤其是为了下一个nap而控制第一个nap的时间时。如果他都能在两分钟内入睡，就可以在房间外订好闹钟，时间到了叫醒就好了吧，等他习惯了会不会自己到时间就醒？不知Marti是怎么做的，她宝宝好像也叫醒过第一个nap,或是你认为你们通常的做法

[Martini~]

Haven't yet seen your answer - but around that age I resigned from that routine (short-long-short) as it wasn't suitable for nursery.

Until 8mo we did:
WU 6:30-7:00 but was lying in bed alone without crying
Nap 9:40-20min
Nap 12:30 - 45min to 2h depending on the day, mostly 45min.......:/ when 2h, always broken
Nap around 4:00 for 20-40min
BT  7pm

After 9mo we started as below: (8 till 9mo was a transition time between these routines):
WU 6:30-7:00 but was lying in bed alone without crying
Nap at 11:15 capped at 1.5 if needed but he usually just woke by himself, no resettling!!
Nap at 4pm for 30min
7pm BT

HTH

[koe2moe]

Marti, I'm going to translate Gejun's replies. 
She wrote:

The last few days there didn't seem to be any long NWs, that's why I would like to continue to try this routine.  Even if he isn't LSN, i think the methods mentioned in the book to help LSN kids to restore sleep will be able to help my LO, so I want to continue to try.  About WU, I want to verify the time in order to prevent sleep in due to NW.  If he can only sleep 11hours, till 6am, due to NW, would 6-6:30 still be considered sleep in?  When he has a good routine, i think it is ok to be not so rigid, but now following this routine, don't I need to stick with a fixed time to avoid sleep in?  It is because I found out that if he sleeps till 6:30, he will refuse the afternoon 20 mins nap.  If he wakes at 6, he usually will not refuse that nap.  Please check with Marti.

My lo is an independent sleeper, no dummy or any other comfort item, room is dark, when he wakes in the night, he almost doesn't cry.  Sometimes he cries once and then goes back to sleep.  he doesn't need anything from me.  if he wakes for a long time, i try to comfort him or feed him, still he will not go back to sleep soon, he might even get unhappy.  How should I respond?  I am worried that if I over react, it will disturb him.

From 5.5 months, he stopped night feeds and STTN for 11 hours.  No night feeds since then.  In the morning, he plays in his bed and not cries for people. 
He eats a lot.  Day time he takes 800ml milk and quite a bit of solids. 

(Marti pls check the Eat amount on Gejun's original post)

I don't know how much solids to feed him, especially in the afternoon, feed until he stops eating?  He usually doesn't refuse, seems like he will take everything offered to him.  Sometimes when I feel that it is quite a bit, so I stop, he doesn't seem to want more, do I need to feed more?  Day time nap short wake up, can it be caused by hunger?

Another of Marti's question:  night or day sleep, I put him down, when there is no crying, night time it takes 3-8 mins, and day time he is usually very tired and falls asleep very quickly.  sometimes takes about 10 mins, not crying, is that not tired enough?  if he cannot fall asleep within 2 mins, is that a problem?

If NW is long, what should I do to resettle him?  I don't seem to have any ways to help except to wait till he falls asleep himself, as he doesn't cry and i feel that he wants to go back to sleep.

(the following is the next post)
Furthermore, when carrying out a routine, what should I do usually?  Put down at the set time?  or put down a few minutes before to let him fall asleep?  Is it true that when we do set bedtime, after 1-2 weeks transition, he will then fall asleep very quickly?  Otherwise, how can you tell exactly how long he sleeps?  Unless I wait in his room?  ESpecially this can affect the time for the next nap.  If he falls asleep within 2 mins, then I can set an alarm to wake him, when he gets used to it, will he wake up himself?  I want to know what Marti would do.  She seemed to have wake her LO up for first nap, or is this the usual way?

(That's all from the two posts)