how to arrange the naps if DS is LSN to avoid NW?

[gejun]

How to do get a reasonable get up time? if he wake ealier , it is impossible to get to 11:00 am nap, if keep a 12hr days, he will wake up early too, it 's a circle. how to get out of it?

[Martini~]

How old is he now?

That's the idea behind long am nap to push it and keep it reasonable late. If he wakes earlier just stay with him in his room, reassure him, and "start" the day at reasonable time.

[gejun]

he is 8month 21 days. 

[gejun]

he wake at 5;30, and slept from 9:00~10:10, and yawns at 13:00,slept from 13:20 ,now it is 14:50,haven't wake, it seems something wrong, maybe the first nap is compensate early wake up?
 when incease the A time, should according to his true waking up time?
what maybe happen during the first transition days, could you set some example?

[koe2moe]

Hi Gejun,

I think it seems ok that he had 1h15 first nap, then more than 1h30 second nap and still sleeping.  When you transition to a new routine, it is perhaps best to observe 3-5 days of what he does naturally at 3-3:30 A.  When he wakes later from second nap, your bedtime is naturally later, closer to 7. 

[gejun]

谢谢，只是我突然发现改变原来的routine我不知该怎么做了，甚至不知道几点让他睡觉，这个routine没有一个确定的时间表，今天是看到他有困的信号。而他总是醒的早，这导致可能10点前必须睡觉。 我之所以改变原有的作息是过了3周仍然情况不好，这两天午睡时他醒来总是大哭，哭的都吐了。目前的做法更像是感觉他困了就让他睡，但我不确定感觉是否准确，因为他长大了，信号不明显了。我会记录几天的情况

[koe2moe]

Your comments are that
1)  you are a bit lost because of new routine: I think you follow 3-3.5h A and observe.  When you observe, try not to change too many things, otherwise you get confused, and so do we (Marti, and others).
2) Last 2 days he woke up crying till he throws up.  Just keep an eye on him to see if he is getting ill or not.  He's almost 9 m and might be another GS coming up.
3) His tired cues are not very obvious now that he is older:  it is very true.  We (as mothers) need to cope with new changes.  That's why we want to be baby whisperer

Good luck for the next few days.  hugs

[gejun]

好的，我观察两三天做好记录。他的健康看起来没有什么问题。

[koe2moe]

If he seems healthy, then ok.  Good luck coming days

[gejun]

Please translate for me , I am really need help now.I don't know how to keep consistent, for wu and BT,  WU is time he wake naturally?急需帮助，这几天情况很糟糕，我好像没有弄明白怎么 保持一致性来发现问题
给他的活动时间从3到3.5个小时的话，是从他自己自然醒开始算，还是从一个大致设定的时间算?第二个小觉从第一觉醒后算吗？晚上睡觉时间从第二觉醒后3到3.5个小时吗？It's getting worse, I must doing something wrong, my poor baby, maybe I am not consistent, should I let him sleep as he want after a poor night?
from Tuesday, we regigned from 20mins short nap routine since he suddenly cried out loud from noon nap for two days.
I just flowll a classic routine too see what happened or you can give some suggestions.
but on the first day, I　got a longest NW for one and half hour, then following days were also bad,  mutiple NW, some short, some long, and Ew with NW.

5.20
WU:5:30
S:9:00~10:11
S:13:20~14:55
BT;19;00, asleep at 19:09 (he kept be conscious till BT, and yawns around 18:40 after last bottle of formula )
NW : 4:00~5:30
During this one and half hour, he Chatted, seems happy, then quite, roll over, no cry.  I had thougt he would be asleep soon when he was quiet, so I don’t want to disturb him, but soon he roll over or chat. At 5:30, he was asleep finally.

5.21
WU: 6:30
S:10:20~11.50 wake up
S:15:00~15:30, wake up ,he was tired at 14:30
BT:19:00
22:35 Cried and asleep one hour later
Wake at 3:00,4:00,5:00, finally wake up at 5:35
5.22
Wu:5:35
S:8:50-9:50
S:13:30~15:00 (I wake him to protect BT, but he was so tired at 18:00 when had formula, asleep at 18:20
5.23
Wu :5.20(NW AT 3:00, 4:00,each 20mins)

It seems if l let him sleep as much as he wanted, we fallen into a circle , day nap compensated poor night sleep?
How should I start a beginning now?

despite the poor sleep, DS's mood is OK.

[gejun]

I already getting a lot of great advice from here, just found don't how to do it , because I never been successful on a solid routine,.he woke so ealier, should BT ealier too?

could you show a example for me ?
advice1: for a classic routine, with 3.5 hours A, the day should be start according when he wake up naturally?so everyday wu, nap time and BT will be different? shoudl I cap any nap if it looks like compensate for poor night?should I control total day sleep amount?

If he woke at 5:30, the first nap should be 9:30,  the second should be 3.5hr after the first nap, let him sleep as he want? keep him wake despite he obviouly tired after a poor night?  will be more NW and OT  at first few days?

advice2; long am nap and CN afternoon, I Tried one day, I found it's easier to got 1.5 hr, maybe because of poor night, But he was tired soon, only after 2.5 hr,that's odd.  is it possible af first days, more nw and OT? after he adapt it, things could be better?

I must be a stupid mum with a good baby, he seldom cried out.

[Martini~]

Hello Honey, just got back from the weekend out and about so I am able to answer.

Firstly - you are a GREAT mum and you have to start to believe in it. If you think you cannot cope, your LO will will it honey.
Please don't be so harsh for yourself and stop setting yourself goals you cannot reach (any of us couldn't reach it!).

So, now about routines. You have to go for one as you know. I would personally go for short/long nap routine as this one was working for you and just needed small tweaks. Now you started a new routine and long NW are back. But if you prefer not waking your LO and long/short routine it's also very fine. Now the details:

1. Short/long routine
- WU after 6am and BT 7pm are very acceptable for this routine
- I would do first nap at 9:00 and let 25min roughly (the timing for this nap is not so crucial, the most important is that this nap is very short; maybe do it in a pram as a nice morning walk when you do errands?)
- second nap at 12 noon - aim for 2h nap
- modify first nap: cut to 20min if second nap starts to be shorter than 1:45-2h or let 25min if you see that he is terrible OT for a second nap
- offer afternoon nap of only 20min not longer
PLEASE be aware that short wakes during night when he self settles are really fine at this age and some kids will just do it! No matter the routine! You may tweak the routine very slightly to address it ie let 2nd nap be 2:15 or 2:30 if possible or go for 6:45 BT. But  be aware that ie my son will have cryouts at night even when very well rested:).

Sample routine:
6:30 WU
9:00 nap for 20min
12 noon nap for 2-2.5h
4:30 nap if needed, 20min maks
7pm BT

2. Long/short nap
- first A this age can be anything between 3.5-4.5h and I would go for set time finally here when you get where you want
- you have to assess how long A is needed by 2 things: length of this nap and morning wakeup; be aware this will change at this age very quickly; if the nap is shorter than 1.5 or morning WU if too early (like 5:30), nap has to be later;
- I would start doing this nap at set time and go for 9:00 for 3 days, than 9:15 for 3 days, 9:30 for 3 days; what you should see is your LO waking later in the morning so not 5:30,  but 5:45, 6:00 etc; push the nap until the WU is at reasonable time you accept and set the nap ie at 11am
- I would cut this nap to 1.5h frankly so to let some time for second nap and as we are not sure if his your LO is LSN, 2h of day sleep should be enough
- probably shortly after (like after 1-2 weeks of routine working) you will have to push the nap further; so when LO starts to wake earlier in the morning or for couple of days the nap will be  shorter than 1:15h, push the nap to 11:15.
- second nap in this routine for a LSN baby will probably be around 2.5-3.5h after waking from the first nap

Sample routine:
6:30 WU
10:30 nap (after 4h of A)
12:00 WU from the nap (after 1.5h - wake if needed)
3:00 second nap - wake at 4pm if needed; if refusing at 3, go for 3:15 or 3:30 and wake respectively
7pm

[gejun]

Thanks so much Martii for your support.
as you said, I felt his A changed quickly this week, my intuition his A is at least 4.5 now. he was calm, happy, good mood all day, during night , never OT cry . if I was not in his room , I cann't even know his NW, he was happy , chatted during Nw, and he was happy after got up, just like no NW exsited.

one more question about short /long, yesterday I woke him up at 6:25(NW 3~4；00) ,at 8:45, 15mins nap, 12:00 noon nap, no signs he was OT, he played well all moring, when I put him down, he played happily over ten mins then asleep, then woke at 1hr15min after asleep, but 1hr 15mins was obviously not enought for him, he need more. Do you thinks it's OT or UT before the noon nap? he always woke at 1hr 15min, in recent three days.

[gejun]

for  Long/short nap

Do you think Prolonged NW could make the first nap longer though the the time for first nap is not late enough?

[Martini~]

Yes for the second question about long short. That's why if you want to go for this routine you should push the nap from 9/9:30 as you did before closer to 10:00/11am which is more common for his age and cap at 1:30 so he doesn't compensate too much for his nights.

Re short long routine, I would be tempted to say UT. If you have the same routine for couple of days now I would put him down earlier or later and just see. So put him down ie 12:15 and see if he will do a longer nap. If not, if the nap is even shorter go back to 12 noon nap and offer 20min in the morning not 15min.
Remember that the case with this nap being long is also how much he slept th day before in the afternoon. So if this nap is potentially UT it maybe also because he is used to 3 naps and it's time to cut the afternoon one to prolong the noon one.