Predictable Unpredictability - Please help us!

[labrodyk]

Hello Everyone,

The only thing predictable about my daughter Audrey's EASY is that it is completely unpredictable. we have several issues;

1) Next to none easy-to-read tired signs. No yawning, eye rubbing and no grizzly/crankiness. Except for when we enter her bedroom and she immediately starts crying.

2) Short naps all day, every day. I spend double/triple the amount of time resettling her than she actually sleeps and 95% of the time she won't go back to sleep. I work with a 1.5hr A time given I can't spot her cues aiming for her to be asleep at the 1.75hr mark. She always cries (loud mantra) to sleep, no matter what her A time is. I've tried shorter, I've tried longer...no difference. Then once a week she'll crash for 3 hours to catch up. I shush/pat with varying success, mostly it will at least slightly calm her

3) Night feeds. I've always fed her when she wakes during the night. There is no predictable wakings she could have 3 feeds (1 before midnight, shortly after and early morning) or 2 after midnight (12/1am and 4/5/6am). This leads into our 4th issue;

4) No predictable wake time - completely all over the place. I've tried letting her sleep no later than 7.30am but with a feed at 6am (always falls straight back to sleep and usually on the bottle) she could sleep a further 3+ hours, drink very little on wake up, consequently messing up our entire day. Bedtime is also therefore all over the place. Anytime from 6-7.30pm!

5) She is really fussy with her feeds and drinks nowhere near the volume on the tin. Some days she'll finish a bottle but most days she's either too tired, too distracted or simply not hungry even after 4 hours.

I would absolutely love to help us establish a 7-7 routine but i can't see the wood from the trees. My baby girl has even started falling asleep at bedtime with her eyes OPEN. Scares me to death but I can tell she's tired, i just have no idea how to fix it...

She sleeps in a love to dream swaddle (zip swaddle with the arms up), I've taken away her dummy a week+ ago because she constantly dropped it and now tries to suck her hands through her swaddle. She has music and a loud fan as white noise. She has a comforter/animal blankie, and I've tried to make it as dark as possible with black-out-blinds. I know she can go longer than 3 hours between feeds but her naps aren't long enough and her A times are so messed up we just can't get there consistently however she feeds SO much better with a larger gap. She also has reflux and spits up a lot but we were on a high dose of medication we've since weaned her from to find absolutely no difference to her sleeping and settling.

A sample EASY from today was;

NF: 1.38am
S: 2-5.50am
NF: 5.50am
S: 6.08-7.30 (woke her)
E: not hungry, pushed to ensure she wasn't hungry but drank very little.
A:
S: 9.00 into bed; cried and sucked her swaddled up hands until 9.15. Woke 10.15 (our longest sleep so far). Shush pat and managed to resettle her to sleep by 10.30;
S: 10.30-10.35
^ tried to resettle again until 11.00
A: 11.00-11.30
E: 11.30; almost finished bottle
A:
S: 11.50 into bed; cried and tried to settle for 20 minutes. 12.05-12.45. Tried to resettle until 1.45!
^ saw what I thought were a few subtle tired signs
S: 1.45-2.20pm
E: 2.30pm; drank quite well
A:
S: 3.50 into bed; cried and tried to settle for 20 minutes. 4.10 - 4.28pm. Woke crying. Tried to resettle her until 5.30 with no luck.
A: bath and bedtime routine
E: 6.00. Too tired and I had to push her to drink and stay awake.
S: 6.15 into bed; lay quietly and grizzled until 6.45pm but fell asleep with her eyes open.

I feel SO bad for her and nothing I do works at all. She's such a gorgeous, happy girl who smiles a lot and even rolled from tummy to back today for the first time but we're still all over the place when I thought we'd have found a rhythm by now. Sleeping on the go is just fruitless (naps are 20/30/40 minutes in the pram or the car)  so my 3yo DS and I are feeling really trapped too.

Please help. I have absolutely NO idea where to start. I have quite a few posts on BW forums but despite so much assistance we just haven't found any solutions.

Many thanks in advance,
Laura.
x

[becj86]

Hi Laura, lets see if we can help here.

How old is your DD?

Do you know her temperament?

Does she ever show hunger cues with 1-2.5hr of eating?

There is some good news in there - she can nap through the transition from sleep cycle to cycle as demonstrated by her 1hr nap, so if we can get a routine that suits her, she may fall into a more predictable pattern for you.

If 7-7 is important to you, you can wake her at 7 if she isn't already awake so you're starting your days at the same time. I'd suggest taking her outside in that first A time when the sun isn't as harsh - she's less likely to get burned and her body clock will have the benefit of seeing the sun and knowing its day time.

[labrodyk]

Audrey is 14 weeks currently. I tried the temperament quiz but I couldn't get w definitive answer. She's not angel, sometimes textbook but she is generally happy when awake and rarely cries - unless of course we enter her bedroom and it's sleep time. My DS is ridiculously spirited and there are certain traits of that she exhibits (not sleeping on the go,  stimulated easily).
As for hunger cues, or any cues, they're all over the place and I don't see her exhibiting much of anything - apart from constantly sucking fists. Yet, when I offer more food she either is completely disinterested or is hungry for 30ml and then refuses it with a smile.

I know she can get through sleep cycles as she's pulled some 2-3hr naps and even 1.5hrs today but I can't get her to do it herself, or consistently.

Today has been purely unbearable and I resulted in giving her the dummy back after taking it away two weeks ago. Her brand new Love to Dream swaddles are practically ruined and each sleep they're drenched in saliva and vomit as she's so desperate to suck that she's gagging and vomiting.

S/  6.45pm- 1.45am
NF: 1.45; drained bottle
NW: 5.00, must have grizzled and settled as I went back to sleep
NF: 5.40. I tried to offer water; then a small amount of milk but she wouldn't settle. Offered more milk and she fell asleep on the bottle.
WU: 7.38am (could have been slightly earlier)
E: didn't want anything, max 50ml and I tried for almost an hour
A:
S: 8.45am; asleep 9.00 (crying) - 9.30am. Resettled her with shush/pat
S: 9.50am - 10.15. Resettled with shush/pat
S: 10.30am - 12.00
E: 12.00pm. 130ml (left 50ml)
A: car trip. Errands.
S: 1.48pm, asleep 1.54pm - 2.35pm.
^ tried to resettle until 3.15
E: 3.20pm, feed. Drank most of bottle but then vomited it after about 20 minutes. She wouldn't settle at all in my arms and just kept looking for hands to suck on and crying.
S: 4.20pm, into bed and wouldn't stop crying. Offered dummy and she finally closed her eyes. Asleep 4.55 - 5.17! I woke her by entering the room, can't believe it.
E: 6.20 - drank roughly 120ml.
S: 6.45; crying will need to do shush/pat

I'll update with the rest of the night later. I don't know what to do and I'm feeling really upset today so hopefully I don't come across too emotional.
I'm going to re-start the reflux medication just to see if there is any improvement. In the interim, please help. What is wrong with my baby and why can't I get things right!? Feel like such a failure...

I'll take her out in the sun first thing tomorrow. Do you think I should use the dummy again or throw it away and encourage her to self-settle? I'd like to have her self settle but I took it away for a reason - she couldn't keep it in her mouth and I was forever putting it back in.  Night sleep improved without it but naps certainly haven't....

[becj86]

Could you just use the dummy for naps?

Her night looks pretty good there, I'd have just fed at that 5:40 waking, she's tiny and having long stretches for her age anyway. Also wouldn't have been too worried about her not taking much early in the morning at wakeup after the 5:40 feed.

WRT naps, I wouldn't have resettled after the 10:15 waking, just a new A time and start another nap after 1.5hr. Concern would be that she could tack that on to her night.

I think I'd probably not worry so much about resettling for a really long time, especially with a toddler around. It'll be frustrating for you both, I'd maybe try to 15-20min tops then get on with the day rather than spending hours in a darkened room trying to get a tiny baby to sleep. Your job is to provide her the opportunity and the means, you cannot force her to sleep and for your mental health, way better to limit the frustration when its pretty fruitless. When you have successfully tried to resettle, its taken 15-20min so I'd be stopping after that. Its hard to judge A time on long resettling attempts - LO has been awake but maybe had calm moments in there, so easier just to limit it and take WU as the time you stop trying to resettle and go 1.5hr from there.

It doesn't look particularly like reflux is an issue here, but worth ruling it out, I think.

[labrodyk]

You're right, thank you so much for the reality check. Your advice is spot on and I'll try my best to keep going.

As for resettling and feeds - should I be aiming for 3/3.5/4 hourly feeds? If I resettle and she does go back to sleep should I be waking her? And if she doesn't resettle so we continue with our day and aim for a 1.5hr A do I feed again right before sleep if close to 3hrs or try for another short nap and wake at 4 hours or let her sleep as much as she wants? Sorry, I'm a little confused.

She was Very OT from yesterday and took an hour to fall asleep at BT; mantra crying, massive pauses of laying quietly, settling noises whilst trying to suck hands. She then woke 2.5hrs or so later at 10.30. I didn't even try to resettle, I just fed her. Another feed at 2.30 and she had difficulty settling after that feed - she didn't cry but heaps of grunting and tossing not around. Woke at 6.35 but she was trying to resettle so she had a little whinge, lay quietly sucking her hands until I got her up at 7.00.

We're heading out today so will just wing all the naps...

[becj86]

I would just offer milk upon getting her up - the predictability will be important for her. Presuming her weight gain is fine, try not to fall into the trap of wanting her to eat more than she's prepared to. Offering regularly (every 2.5-4hr, as it fits into her day and preferably when she gets out of bed) and letting her take what she needs is perfectly fine for most babies (not all, but that's where the reflux may be relevant if she's regurgitating everything she eats and not gaining, for example).

At the moment, I would let her sleep if she does resettle, but cap the nap at 2.5hr at the most so you're not ending up battling UT/OT cycle. Sleep debt is not such that you have to catch up everything you've missed, just enough to get you back on track so getting sufficient is better than excess.

Hope today works out ok xx

[labrodyk]

Hi!! Hope you've had a good weekend

So yesterday's napping on the go was horrific. I can't even document it but basically we had HOURS between 20/30/40 minute naps all day even with highway driving. Cried and woke constantly at bedtime. She passed out eventually and I gave her a dream feed at 10.30 and she slept through until 4am, fed and I woke her at 7.30am.

today we had one success with a 2hr nap! No resettling didn't wake fully between cycles. I would just LOVE to find out how I get her to do that consistently?! The rest of the naps were hit and miss, my resettling was fruitless and she went to bed protesting and upset taking almost an hour to fall asleep at bedtime. Would you mind letting me know your thoughts?

WU: 7.30am (woken)
E: 7.40am (100ml)
A:
S: 8.37am; asleep 8.52am - 9.28am
* lay quietly 9.28-9.38am before crying
* pat trying to resettle from 9.40-10.00am
A:
E: 10.30am (90ml)
A:
S: 11.16am; asleep 11.26am-1.30pm (woke happy laying quietly)
E: 1.30pm (110ml)
A:
S: 2.48pm; asleep 3.05-3.35pm
* pat trying to resettle from 3.40-4.00pm
A:
E: 4.30pm (130ml)
A:
S: 4.57; asleep 5.38 after patting her from 5.20. Only slept for 5 minutes.
A: bath
E: 6.00; (50ml)
S: 6.20; asleep 6.58pm.
Protesting, crying, sucking hands to settle.

Her signs are SO hard to read! I thought I picked up some eye rubbing, yawning and grizzliness in the morning and after the 3rd nap attempt. I'm really confused..

[becj86]

Sorry to read of your not so flash day out

S: 8.37am; asleep 8.52am - 9.28am

UT nap - not surprising with the short A time

* lay quietly 9.28-9.38am before crying

If you're going to resettle, do it when she's still quiet - its much easier than once she's upset. Trust me, it won't always be required but it will help her get more sleep and then be better at resettling herself due to not having competing OT and UT in her system.

* pat trying to resettle from 9.40-10.00am

Really good call to stop here, hats off to you for your perseverance, seriously!

S: 11.16am; asleep 11.26am-1.30pm (woke happy laying quietly)

Awesome nap This is after 2:25 A time following a short nap. That's a lot at this age but could be a sign that she's a high A time, long nap kind of girl. I'd like to see a more consistent attempt at A times of 1:45ish before jumping this far though, as it may have been a crash nap, from the OT accumulation so lets not read too much into it right now.

S: 2.48pm; asleep 3.05-3.35pm* pat trying to resettle from 3.40-4.00pm

Could overstimulation have been a factor here? Just wondering as otherwise it seems like OT length which is odd given the long nap and short A time.

Then the end of the day was a bit of a write off Ok, so I think your A times a wee bit haphazard here and that's making it tricky for all concerned. Also, with that in and out of bed with little more than an hour between through the afternoon, its so hard to tell if the protesting is just "why am I here again" or "I'm tired" or what, yk? Partly witching hour, too, I'm guessing...

Alrighty, what I'm going to suggest is watching the clock, then watching DD - When she wakes, note the time and then work out 1:45 from then. Watch the clock til 10min before that time, then start watching DD for cues. If she is grizzly or upset before then, change activity - more likely boredom, discomfort or some other upset rather than tiredness. If she doesn't show any cues, put her down for a nap at 1:50 A time (so you're watching for cues for 15min in the window when they're most likely to come, least likely to be anything else and sill giving her an age-appropriate opportunity to sleep). If she short naps, reduce A time by 15min, so start watching for cues at 1:20 from when you stopped resettle attempt and PD at 1:35 from then. Is this doable?

[labrodyk]

Hi Bec! Thank you so very much for helping us, today we had a success, a half success,  a mini fail and then a BT fail. How do you think we went?

WU: 7.15
S: 9.00; asleep 9.07-11.15
E:
S: eye rub at 12.50. In bed 12.55; asleep 1.07-1.43
Rs: ~2.05
S: 2.05-2.12
Rs: ~2.20
S: 2.20-3.05
** I roll DD onto her side facing away from me, one hand on her arm/shoulder the other hand patting her bottom. Problem is, I can't roll her back to her back without waking her. Second resettle I put a wedge under her so I didn't have to roll her. Is that ok?
E: 3.15 (170ml)
A: at the park with DS3. Hurried home for that last nap
S: 4.55. Protest crying but asleep 5.05 - 5.35
A:
E: 6.20
A:
S: 7.10; protest, then lay quietly, trying to settle before getting agitated and crying/fussing.
Finally asleep 8.00pm

What do you think? Am I on the right track? I feel bad about bedtime and the late, short nap but with DS3 (Harry) it's really hard to get them both settled and avoid overstimulation especially without hubby most nights.

Audrey certainly protests the second we go into her room to swaddle and start wind down. It would be nice if she would go down without crying

[becj86]

Definitely looking good in the morning, that first nap was great. The second nap looks UT, perhaps - could just be getting used to the routine though, lets just wait and watch with that nap, it could well extend as you keep up the consistent routine.

That last nap looks OS and probably a bit OT. She may even have picked up on the agitation + hurry and been crying with that, yk? Hard to tell. That's the one I'd probably do in a carrier/wrap at the park so DS can play til he's ready to go and then since its a CN, its not such an issue if not a long nap. Less wrangling of grumpy toddler = less stress for you and less potential for resentment towards DD from DS' POV. Having to stop fun stuff every time little sister needs a nap is not fun

I think you're on the right track, stick with it a few more days then we can see some patterns and tweak if needed. You can only do so much, truly, you are human - also, think of all the things you got right today - its really important for we mothers to look on the bright side and strengthen that positive self-talk so we can model it for our kids.

With BT, it might be worth stepping in and helping her if she's been quiet and trying to settle herself for >15-20min - it generally means she's missed her window if you've put her down at a reasonable time and she's taking a while to fall asleep so to prevent OT and help her recognise that sweet spot between UT and OT when its easiest to fall asleep. Understand that may not be possible while putting DS to bed with DH not there.

[labrodyk]

Thanks! I'll keep going. I have a feeling this morning could be a write off...she was showing tired signs after an hour and went down quite upset...
My biggest problem with Audrey is her inability to nap on the go. I would have loved to do a pram or carrier nap yesterday at the park but it would have been just like when we were out over the weekend. She just will NOT close her eyes. I can't work it out. I reduce the stimulation, I use the swaddle up and put her lullaby's on my phone. It takes ages and results in serious crying. Is there anything I can do?

Last night and this morning was;
DF: 10.30
NF: 3.00
NW: 6.30. I was prepared to get up for the day but she was screaming so I gave her a quick pat and she went back to sleep.
WU: 7.30
E: 7.30
A:
S: tired signs at 8.30! Pushed through until 9.05 when she was quite cranky. In bed at 9.10, asleep 9.20 -

Will update later...

[becj86]

Do you have a carrier in which she is comfortable and can curl up on your chest? I'd probably not make it obvious you're trying to get her to sleep, just get her comfortable and settled then walk around with her.

FX for the rest of the day.

[labrodyk]

I have an ergo 360 and a hug-a-bub! So hard to use when it's 30+ degrees though and she gets quite agitated and upset unless I shush/pat and walk around reducing all the stimulation possible. She doesn't like to just sit and be happy in it. Which coincidentally is like my DS - never content  to just sit with me and cuddle or have a sleep with me or anything like that...
Unfortunately today I didn't get a chance to use it anyway... The whole day was a bit whacky! From the top again, it went like this;

Last night and this morning was;
DF: 10.30pm (90ml)
NF: 3.00am (140ml)
NW: 6.30. I was prepared to get up for the day but she was screaming so I gave her a quick pat and she went back to sleep.
WU: 7.30
E: 7.30 (140ml)
A:
S: tired signs at 8.30! Pushed through until 9.05 when she was quite cranky. In bed at 9.10, asleep 9.20 - 10.20am
Rs: ~10.30
S: - 10.38am
Rs: ~10.48am
S: - 10.58
E: 11.00 (100ml)
A:
S: *12.13 rubbed eyes. Bed at 12.22; asleep 12.32-2.06. She didn't wake crying and I didn't have the strength to resettle so got her up.
E: 2.15 (110ml)
A:
S: 3.40; crying but asleep 3.53 - 4.34
RS: ~4.55
A: 4.55-5.55
E: 5.55-6.10 (150ml)
Book and cuddles to break up feed to sleep
S: 6.20; still lying quietly at 6.45 so left DS and went to help her and pat her off. 40 minutes later she was still awake, having a chat and a giggle to me. I'd had enough by then and left her to it and she fell asleep with very little whinging at 7.30.
DF: 10.30pm
NW/NF: 2.30am. 2.30; tried to resettle for 20 minutes.
NF: 2.50-3.10  Fed her but she vomited over everything after gagging on the bottle at the end for some reason! So I had to change her and disrupt her.
S: Back to bed at 3.10; asleep 3.43 after a long time patting.

WU: 7.30 (woken)

I only tried to resettle at 2.30 because that second feed is getting earlier and earlier post dreamfeed and I don't know why. 

I'm SO exhausted and my back is agony from resettling. I'm obviously doing something wrong despite how hard I try. Thanks so much for the support, it means so much.

Laura x

[becj86]

S: tired signs at 8.30! Pushed through until 9.05 when she was quite cranky. In bed at 9.10, asleep 9.20 - 10.20am

UT - Really important to push through to at least 1:45, I think it may be worth increasing a bit to 2hr - what are your thoughts?

S: *12.13 rubbed eyes. Bed at 12.22; asleep 12.32-2.06. She didn't wake crying and I didn't have the strength to resettle so got her up.

This is a 1.5hr nap, no need to resettle. What are you aiming for?

DF - Is there a reason she's taking less at the DF than any other feed? Just wondering if increasing the DF by 20-30ml would help her sleep that bit further into the night. Keep in mind there's a giant growth spurt at 4 months which she could be starting.

She's having better naps there, I think you can probably reduce the resettling a bit more - I probably wouldn't have bothered at 4:30 - its a catnap, not really much of a drama at that time of day. I'd be inclined to really push through, especially that first A time. Its important not to be scared of OT at nap time - its so much easier to resettle an OT waking than UT, because they're still tired.

I think you may find she's a high A time kiddo - is she waking frequently through the evening after she goes off to sleep? If not, she may just be a LO who likes a long A to bed.

[labrodyk]

Thanks for replying!!

Ok, perhaps I'm confused. Should I be putting her DOWN at 1.45/2h or allowing time to fall asleep? I've been watching cues from 10mins before those times and putting down if they appear as quickly as possible but this means she's in bed slightly before 1.45/2h. Could possibly do 2hrs, watching from 1hr50 if you think that might help?

You're right, 1.5hrs was good and she woke happy. Just wasn't sure if they should be closer to 2hrs.

DF: for she takes a big feed before bed then the DF is small. Just like most feeds she's only really having on average 100ml a bottle. This morning I've only managed to get 110ml after that feed at around 3am from 7.30. I'll try and make a bigger bottle but she slows down and stops during the DF so I assume she's had enough!

She does have nights where she wakes after 40 minutes (usually if all she's had all day are catnaps and few of them) but usually no, she'll take forever to go to sleep but then crash out. I saw her wake after 40 minutes last night but she resettled herself reasonably quickly.

ETA:

WU: 7.30 (woken)
E: 7.40 (140ml)
A:
S: 9.15, in bed at 9.20. Cried for 10 minutes until 9.29 and woke at 10.08. Will attempt resettle.