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SLEEP => Sleeping For Toddlers => Topic started by: C&B&E on September 27, 2012, 20:46:46 pm
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:'( :'(
We are still struggling. 15 months on and we are still having awful, awful sleep. I just haven't bothered to post for months because I've just not known what anyone would be able to suggest as I 'know' most of the normal answers/things to try and they just haven't worked :(.
History - dd has severe reflux, medicated on max dose of ppi and ranitidine, and up until 10 mo was up 5-15 times every night in pain. It almost killed us. Things gradually improved with meds, but if we forget doses then things go downhill quickly. She is also MSPI and I am still BF. She is a late teether - just got her first tooth a few weeks ago.
She is/was an independant sleeper in that we finally got to the stage where we could put her in her bed and walk out of the room and she would go to sleep - it took 12 months to get to this point though! She normally takes a full bf in the night - for a while it was at 5am then she would go back til 8. I left it because 15 minutes up in the night was a breeze compared to what we've been through, and it helped her get a late morning.
But the last few weeks have been horrible. I can't pinpoint when it started. But basically she will scream and go mad at bedtimes, will not settle, smashing her head against the bars of her cot :'(. Yesterday it took me 1.5 hours to get her down for her nap, today an hour. And it can be even worse at bedtime. Goes crazy in her bed, but continues going wild if I'm holding her - arching her back, screaming, and lurching so hard I almost drop her if I try to pick her up. She is up so much in the night, and just going wild. Will settle if I feed her, but then wakes when I put her in bed and it's like she's some crazed animal. I just can't work it out. I took her to the doctors and he has given some drops as she has some hard wax in one ear which he said can cause some pain, but even with calpol she is going mad.
What confuses me is that sometimes I will take her out of the cot and then she will see something on the sideboard that interests her and she will start giggling - it's like a different child. And then I will say 'it's time for sleep' and she goes crazy again ???.
It doesn't seem to be routine related - as she does it on long or short A's. She is mostly on one nap now, but it is all over the place now because of how long it takes to settle her :-\, and she never wakes at consistent times.
Ugh, I know I haven't probably given clear info - my head is so muddled this has been such a mess for so long - but has anyone got any thoughts :-\
Thank you x
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Hi Sweetheart, I'm so sorry you're having such a hard time. I remember DS going through this at the same age and I was so shocked, it was just awful. I wish I could remember more details about what I did (how quickly we forget) but I do know I just APOP'd until it got better and that it did just pass as so many things do. I am going to ask for more eyes on this for you Honey as there is a lot going on/gone on and you could certainly do with a shoulder or 2 to lean on.
(HUGS)
x.
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((((hugs))))) Claire, have you ever tried no nap and early bed? Just out of curiousity. O would only kick and scream if he wasn't tired enough.
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Thanks ladies :-*.
The thing is Laura she does it for nearly every sleep time and there seems to rhyme or reason for it :-\- after she's short napped, does it in the middle of the night, and does it when she is beyond exhausted and has been signing 'sleep'!! She's definitely not low sleep needs either and is taking OT naps and looks permanently rough!
She was up in the night for an hour screaming with DH, I finally fed her, but even then she carried on screaming and head banging for a few minutes before she finally settled again. Then up for the day at 5.50am, clearly exhausted but would not re-settle again. Yuk. I just wonder if there is something else going on, but I don't know what.
Could this be just a prop issue because I was feeding her to sleep when she was teething? It just seems pretty extreme to me.
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Have you tried anything other than paracetemol - ibuprofen for example? Just sounds to me like it could be pain related (especially with the ear thing) :-\
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Yes, I have tried ibroprofen, but not consistently - I'm always put off a bit because of her stomach issues :-\. But that's good idea - I might give it a go for the next couple of days and then it will help me rule out pain as a factor.
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Goes crazy in her bed, but continues going wild if I'm holding her - arching her back, screaming, and lurching so hard I almost drop her if I try to pick her up. She is up so much in the night, and just going wild.
Honey, you know reading this again, I agree that it does sound like a pain issue. Sam behaved like this when he had ear infections. You could try propping her up to sleep, by putting a pillow or 2 underneath the cot mattress. I believe that teething and ear pain are worse when lying flat. Worth a try. Ibuprofen definitely works better for Sam than paracetamol, but you are right in that it can upset little tummies in some cases. You could try staggering both meds so that there is no peaks and troughs of pain. Even if you do this in the short term it may answer the question as to whether it is pain related YK ???
x.
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My DS was the same at a similar age. I agree with pps that it sounds like pain. All that thrashing, just like my DS and he has never ever had a feed to sleep prop so I don't think it is that at all. Plus usually if a LO has been an independent sleeper they tend ot return to it pretty easily once the pain/teething/illness/whatever has passed.
When DS was like that it looked like reflux pain and I started thinking maybe he needed a meds increase but it did settle again, could have been teeth/ear infection. It did pass.
hugs xx
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I hardly ever give my kids iboprofen either as it upsets my own tummy but if I ever do take it I make sure I've had something to eat first, seems to make a difference, hth
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Hugs from one mummy up at night with a toddler to another xx
DS had some pretty nasty teething pain around this age and it came with some pretty severe SA - sometimes for Daddy, sometimes for me - he would just sit up in bed screaming and cry out DADDY or MUMMY and would be inconsolable if the other went in.
There's an enormous mental leap around this age too - http://www.thewonderweeks.com/index.php/about-the-wonder-weeks/your-babys-10-leaps/mental-leap-9
Also, the head-banging: DS was head-banging at 5 months old when teething and all that I read said it was to distract from pain.
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hugs claire - have a sick girlie so not on much atm but will be back xxx
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ok, had a read through. Def sounds like pain to me although M does act a bit like this although not quite as extreme when she is OT.
Hugs - I know how much you have struggled with E and her reflux.
Is it worth talking to the Dr again about her meds??
We are also going through hysterical crying at nap time - not fun :(
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(Hugs)
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UGH, so she's been up there with DH for almost an hour now SCREAMING :'(. I just do not understand it. She is so OT now, which won't be helping, but we can't even APOP her as she is going so wild :-\! But what I don;t understand is that she is fine during the day - happy, not pulling on ears etc, and then as soon as I finish feeding her or reading her book at bedtime she just goes crazy - it's not even when I actually put her in her cot ???.
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Maybe she is associating pain with laying down? I would give ibu and para an hr before bed and see if that helps :-\
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Yes, that's what I am starting to wonder. Also, she has had her ear drops for two days (max time I can give them to her), and she is *no* different. But I have got a blocked ear too and so I have used her drops (to see how effective they were :P) and they have made no difference to my ears at all ::)! Am going to dose her up on pain meds the next couple of days and get an appointment on Monday. Thanks for the hand holding :-*
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I used drops for blocked ears and they were *rubbish* Olive oil much better for at least a week.
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Hi, have you considered it could be food related? Olly didn't sleep thorough until all his food issues were sorted and if you say she has never slept through I don't think it can be teeth or even routine.
Does she have wind etc st these NWs? How does she settle in the end?
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Hi, have you considered it could be food related? Olly didn't sleep thorough until all his food issues were sorted and if you say she has never slept through I don't think it can be teeth or even routine.
Does she have wind etc st these NWs? How does she settle in the end?
She was 'sleeping through-ish' for the last couple of months except for one night feed - so no discomfort or anything like the horrendous nights where she would be up every half hour in pain. But saying that the last few weeks she has had a LOT of mucous in her poos - much more than normal - and we cannot put our finger on why. But she is fine when she is pooing, no crying or anything, and happy during the day ???. She was doing up to 4 poos in an hour last week, some of which were just nappies full of mucous :(. The doctor just put it down to diarrhea :-\. But nothing has really changed in my diet or hers so I can't work it out - AGH!
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Ok, I read the title as never having STTN. It could well be tummy related if she has mucous tho. Olly was fine in the day too. The pain started 2 hours after he went to sleep. Not sure what it coud be though if nothing has changed in your diets ???
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Ok, I read the title as never having STTN.
Well, she hasn't ever slept through at all ::) - but just was trying to differentiate between how things were a few weeks ago to how much worse they are now :)!
It could well be tummy related if she has mucous tho. Olly was fine in the day too. The pain started 2 hours after he went to sleep. Not sure what it coud be though if nothing has changed in your diets ???
The thing is she often does have mucous, but just not this much. The only change that occurred was a couple of weeks ago we introduced some aptimil pepti (for mspi/milk allergy lo's), but I have not given her any for the last week as I wanted to rule out that it was that bothering her. She had a nappy full of mucous today so I'm guessing it can't be that :-\.
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It could be the milk if she s particularly sensitive. Has she had any eczema with it? Not sure it would explain the head banging tho, that really does sound like pain :-[
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No eczema, just really foul smelling wind :-\.
Yes, I agree - I don't think that it is this causing the issues at night, just something else that is going on with her :-\. I'm going to call the dietitian next week to ask what she thinks about the poo issues (E's been losing weight too so I've been told to keep them up to date with any issues).
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Oh Claire, (((hugs))). I really don't have anything else productive to add, I think it sounds like pain too. But, I couldn't read through all of this and not post. It sounds just heartbreaking. :'(
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She has slept for 30 minutes all day, and I am SO angry at her :'( >:( :'(. I just feel like my whole life is dominated by her screaming and trying to get her to sleep. There, I said it. I am sick of it. I *know* it's not her fault, but I feel like my empathy reserves are completely depleted after all these months, and I just want someone else to look after her for a while :'(.
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Sorry for my vent! have calmed down now (helps that she is asleep ::) :P), just not sure what to do when she is averaging 30-55 mins a day and 10 hours at night :-\. Today we gave her a morning nap of 30 minutes since she had a short night, and she fought her second nap for 1hr45 mins before we gave up and got her up. Asleep by 6pm, but that's a long day on hardly any sleep! Ah well *shrug*
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No advice but lots of ((((hugs)))) I know that feeling too well.
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Hugs claire, we are getting 10 hour nights too atm :(
I have to say, I think you are amazing as I know you have struggled so much with E's reflux and 15 months of poor sleep is just beyond exhausting.
I wonder if it is teething as that can make reflux symptoms worse can't it and the short nights, nap issues etc do point to that.
XXX
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Hugs Claire xxx
Have you posted your EASY for the EASY experts to look at?
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Have you posted your EASY for the EASY experts to look at?
I laugh in the face of an EASY routine ;) ;D :P! Goodness knows what I'd post ::).
before all this we had an OKish (relatively, it's all relative :P) routine where she would have one or two NW on a good night, wake between 6.30-7.15, and then depending on her night/wu we'd do a one or two nap day. One nap days she would go down at about 11.30/45 and have 1.5-2 hour and then a 6.30/6.45 pd (and take 2mins-1 hour to settle). I tried to do one nap days as much as possible as I just do not have the energy to settle her for two naps when she is such a nightmare to get down :-[.
On particularly bad nights/EW she'd do a short am nap from 9.50/10ish for about 30 mins. Then she'd do a 1.5 (or some random time!) nap in the afternoon, with a 6.45/7 bedtime. Earlier if terrible naps.
I also have to work round B's preschool run now which makes things more difficult so she sometimes is thrown by that.
I know what EASY I would like to aim for, but she is always so unpredictable that it never seems to actually happen as with the exact same A times she will just behave totally differently from one day to the next :-\ (and that's when things are going ok!)
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Claire, have you tried set nap and BT with the one nap per day? I found A times to be SO reliable before 12 months and so unreliable after 12 months (around the time of moving to 1 nap which was between 11 and 12 months for us). Our morning WU time is variable, going by A times would move the nap all over the place but set naps work a treat. We do have one-off days where there will be an unusually early nap usually due to teething pain so there is still flexibility to allow for LO's illness or teeth or development sleep disturbances etc but on the whole the set nap is a winner.
Maybe worth a try. I find it a lot easier to manage personally too as I know how our normal day is going to pan out. It could be helpful with you having the preschool run to fit around?
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Claire, have you tried set nap and BT with the one nap per day? I found A times to be SO reliable before 12 months and so unreliable after 12 months
^^^this. We've done just the same since going to 1 nap, its been the only way to give any predictability & consistency to our day. x
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Have you tried the meds yet?
I also would def vouch for set nap. ((((((()))))))
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how was the weekend hun?
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Hi Claire,
Sweetheart, just want to send lots of love, it sounds like and exhausting time and you should NEVER feel bad for feeling like you need a break, you are a 'human being' and no wonder you're exhausted. Is there any way any of this could be to do with the dark at night ??? I wonder if a 'night light (if she hasn't already got one) may soothe her, or gentle music etc. I have never used anything like that for Sam but I know some parents have had big success. I just wonder if she is getting so anxious at BT because she is associating lying down with pain and anticipating it, so maybe if you can change something and set a relaxing scene (light show with music type toy ???) it could take her mind of things. You could also try propping her mattress with pillows underneath, sorry I may have mentioned this already.
x.
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Thanks for checking in :-*, our internet has been down and I can't reply to messages on my phone.
Well the weekend has been pretty horrendous :'(. Her head is covered in bruises from how much she has been banging it on her cot - and I am going to have to take a video of her doing it as I am worried in case the doctor suspects I am hurting her :-[ :'(. She was up for two hour long NWs on Saturday night just screaming and banging. Even after I'd fed her she would not settle :-\. Taking 30mins to 1.5 hours of screaming before she conks out for naps, and then short napping as she is so ridiculously OT by the time she gets to sleep. TBH I don't think that set naps are going to help at the moment :-\ - she's in the middle of 2:1 (and still not ready for one nap every day, she's fairly high sleep needs) and clearly exhausted from all the trouble we're having.
Tonight was the best night we've had for ages (she'd had calpol and nurofen - so I'm going to try that tomorrow as well). It only took 45 mins to get her down, but she was much calmer towards the end and let DH stroke her hair and she quietly lay herself down and went to sleep :).
So am going to give both meds again tomorrow and see how we go. Also booked in to see the GP again on Wed to get her ears rechecked and to get them to test her poo to see if there's something wrong there. She's pooing so much mucous it's gross :-X.
I just wonder if she is getting so anxious at BT because she is associating lying down with pain and anticipating it, so maybe if you can change something and set a relaxing scene (light show with music type toy ???) it could take her mind of things. You could also try propping her mattress with pillows underneath, sorry I may have mentioned this already.
Thank you. yes, I have tried putting on some gentle music and put her a glow-worm thing in her bed but it just doesn't seem to help once she starts going wild! She's got her mattress propped up for reflux so hopefully that would help her ears too.
She's had 50 mins of sleep all day again so wish us luck for tonight!
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Oh Claire, it sounds so upsetting :'( really hope toucan get to the bottom of this soon so you can all relax a bit... How distressing!
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Oh honey, that sounds very distressing :'(
Hope the doc is able to help somehow. xx
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Oh Claire, you poor thing (((((((((((hugs))))))))))) Hope the dr can find "something". :-*
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"Toucan"?? stupid autocorrect.
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Lol - made me smile though :D!
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And me ;)
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Sorry to hear things are so bad xx hugs
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Wooop!! She settled herself for her nap for the first time this month ;D!!! And I put Ben down for a nap too as I needed a rest (he'll be up til 9 tonight but I figure DH will be home then ;) ;))...so they have both been asleep for 1.h hours so far!!! I feel like a new woman :P
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wow - enjoy :)
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Did you medicate hun? Perhaps you have an answer of sorts?
Glad you got some rest though.
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just saw this Claire, my heart goes out to you it sounds really distressing :'(
So glad that she went down by herself and that you got some rest.
many many hugs
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Wooop!! She settled herself for her nap for the first time this month ;D!!! And I put Ben down for a nap too as I needed a rest (he'll be up til 9 tonight but I figure DH will be home then ;) ;))...so they have both been asleep for 1.h hours so far!!! I feel like a new woman :P
FAB!!
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Yay, it's the little things, isn't it? Hope you enjoyed the peace and quiet! (((Hugs)))!! :-* :-*
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you ladies are lovely :)
Well, she took 45 minutes to settle tonight, but only 20 minutes of screaming/head banging. She is trying to say something to us at every bedtime but I cannot work out what! It is a word she never says at any other time, and I wish I knew what it was so we could help her :-\.
But 1.5 hours with both children asleep was bliss....I hoovered, did some washing, loaded up the dishwasher and cleaned the kitchen :D! Sad eh?!
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But 1.5 hours with both children asleep was bliss..
lovely...can you believe that never happened to me after having m. H only napped in his bed for about 3 months after she was born anyway but if one of them did a good nap the other was up after 40 mins or whatever.
v pleased for you but not pleased you were so productive, what about the chocolate and a trashy magazine on the sofa!!
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It is a word she never says at any other time, and I wish I knew what it was so we could help her
that's intriguing, what does it sound like? could there be something/smell/feel in her bed???
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v pleased for you but not pleased you were so productive, what about the chocolate and a trashy magazine on the sofa!!
I know! But our house is so gross at the moment that it wouldn't have felt particularly relaxing sitting with my feet up surrounded by mess ::).
It is a word she never says at any other time, and I wish I knew what it was so we could help her
that's intriguing, what does it sound like? could there be something/smell/feel in her bed???
She does it and points out of her bed ???. But she is never pointing at the same thing . So she will say "ba ba" for bonjela, and then says "guarney" but we don't know what it means...I'm really going to try and figure it out over the next few days. I might try and teach her the signs for medicine, pain, etc so that she can use them if she needs to.
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How's it going, Claire?
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hey Katie :)
yuk, DH is currently settling her for her nap and she's been screaming/banging for an hour again. Last night she was sick because she got herself in such a state - and that was with DH is the room right next to her. In the end I had to get into the cot to settle her as she was totally past it.
BUT, I think we have worked out what she wants - milk. She is signing for milk while she is screaming, and so I think we have a prop issue now. The doctor checked her ears again and they have cleared up, so I'm hoping that it is 'just' that she is upset because she wants to be fed to sleep ???.
She is very spirited, so I'm not really sure what we do now. She is not fed to sleep about 80% of the time - we persist with the screaming :( - but she doesn't seem to be getting the message! The times when she is fed to sleep it is often because she just conks out (even with the light on), and I just pop her in bed.
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I don't know if this is the correct advice but if she's screaming for milk like you say I'd probably just go ahead and give the milk before any screaming begins. See if it makes a difference, maybe once she's all better and caught up on sleep you can sort the prop out by weaning or dummy or sthg?
many hugs
xxx
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Thanks Kayra. Unfortunately she has normally just had a full feed!! So if she starts signing I know it is not because she actually needs milk - rather she wants to just suck! On the occasions when she falls asleep when feeding (even with the light on) and I put her in her bed, she will often wake up and start screaming/headbanging etc and I have just noticed she has started signing for milk too.
What confuses me is that she rarely gets fed to sleep - so I'm not quite sure why she isn't getting the message. Is it because of the few times when she does ???. Often those times are out of my hands - eg when we get back from a toddler group late and she hasn't fed, and needs a nap.
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is she def not hungry though?? I would have thought if she had had a feed then she would be ok???
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rather she wants to just suck!
I'd try it anyway and see what happens....
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Yeah, I've tried it *lots* of times - she'll just have some and then when I latch her off 5 mins later (when she's not drinking) she'll scream again. Or if she falls asleep on the boob then as soon as I lie her into her cot she wakes and it all starts again as bad as before.
Tonight we had a breakthrough though. My MIL sat and read her 10 books(!), then I gave her a feed, then I got DH to come in and I asked her if she wanted more milk or a book. She signed milk. She latched on for another minute (not drinking, just sucking). Then I asked her again. She signed milk :P, so I latched her on again ::). Minute later I asked her again - and she signed book :D. Had a book with DH, then he cuddled her and told her it was sleep time. Turned off the light and she settled with minimal fuss ;D!
HOOORAH! So we will try something similar tomorrow!
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A dummy??
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not interested - looks at us like we're mad! I jolly well wish she would :P.
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Have you tried one which is a cherry teat? They're harder and sometimes helps... or dip it in gripe water :P
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((Hugs)) Claire, she sounds spirited for sure!
I think theres something about bf babies preferring a latex cherry dummy (tommee tippee) if you want to try that option again.
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Great name...great minds :P ;)
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I just wonder if she's too old now :-\. Worth a shot though!
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well that bedtime's positive, maybe she just wants to be in control :P
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aww, love your pic Kayra....
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My word, this girl is feisty :o! She protested (full on screaming again) for an hour at bedtime as she wanted me to feed her to sleep :-\. This is after having dinner, a full feed and asking for a book after I'd asked whether she wanted milk or story. So how do I tackle this do we think??! It appears I am a prop ::)
Oh, she had a suck of a dummy this afternoon - but no interest whatsoever at bedtime. I'm not sure if I want to go down the route of starting with a dummy at this point anyway :-\
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Sorry I asked and then disappeared for a day! :-[
well that bedtime's positive, maybe she just wants to be in control :P
This is what I thought until I read your last post. She seemed to do so well when you gave her the option, but then not tonight. :-\
She does sound incredibly feisty! But, she also seems to be a good communicator. Is your DH often home to help do bedtime? Maybe, you could just start explaining to her that she's had her milk, now daddy is going to read stories and do bedtime. ??? C was fed to sleep every single night from ~6mo to 13mo, as she was not the best of nappers and was always tired and I just didn't fight it because she STTN. When I weaned her, DH did BT for a week or two (she asked him to nurse the first night, LOL) and after that she was fine and I was easily able to do BT again. But, you'll still be feeding, so that might not work as well for you. Does she do a non-dairy milk at all? What if you offered that in a sippy or straw cup when she asked for milk instead of nursing?
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Thanks Katie :)
Yes, DH does usually take over - but she continues to ask for milk. I'm glad at least that she is now signing what she wants! He took over bedtime (after I'd fed her and read her books) and she ended up crying so hard that he had to hold her in the rocking chair as she was in such a state. She won't take formula and we offer her water but she refuses (hands back the cup very politely and then starts screaming again :P!). We are now very clearly starting to explain to her that milk is finished and it is story then bed - so I'm hoping that might start to help. The thing is I'm not *that* against feeding her to sleep if it actually worked! But it doesn't - even the times when I have resorted to it she often will wake when I've put her in the cot - so I'm not being 'hard' for the sake of it iykwim :-\
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Would it help if you were out of the house for bedtime for a few nights? Yk, give her a reason why you have to go somewhere (i'd be at the pub ;)) and DH to put her to bed.
Would she take expressed milk in a sippy cup, as an interim solution to change habits?
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Would it help if you were out of the house for bedtime for a few nights? Yk, give her a reason why you have to go somewhere (i'd be at the pub ;)) and DH to put her to bed.
Would she take expressed milk in a sippy cup, as an interim solution to change habits?
I have given her a bedtime feed and then gone out (or am usually downstairs so she can't hear/see/smell :P me!) - but it seems to make no difference :-\. DH is great and most nights takes over once I have fed her anyway so she really should *know* that she isn't going to get any more sucking time ::).
I haven't expressed since the first couple of months as I can never get anything - so unfortunately not as that would be ideal.
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it does sound like you are the prop like you said. I guess like any prop you need to be ready to deal with it so if you are ready now then I would start something consistent with DH doing the PD if that helps and no matter what do not feed...she does sound very spirited and so consistency is key...but you know that ;)
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so I'm not being 'hard' for the sake of it iykwim :-\
Oh yes, I know! I agree with Becky, and like Laura suggested, I actually left the house that first week of not feeding C. It was just easier on all of us that way. But, our house is not very big, so there wasn't really an option to just disappear downstairs.
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Yeah I was thinking she's obviously very switched-on and would probably know that youre still in the house, albeit downstairs.
I know it will feel horrible withholding milk from her :(
Hugs for tonight
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Just wanted to update that Evelyn settled herself to sleep tonight ;D! I fed her, read her a story, and then put her in her cot with a book and a little night-light. She started fussing and I explained (again :P) that there was no more milk or stories, and left her room and within 10 minutes she was asleep with minimal fuss! Such a relief.
Now to just get rid of the night feed ::)!
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Woohoo!! Way to go, E! ;D
Now to just get rid of the night feed ::)!
**whispering** You're not the only one that still has a NF to get rid of. :P
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Just wanted to update that Evelyn settled herself to sleep tonight ;D! I fed her, read her a story, and then put her in her cot with a book and a little night-light. She started fussing and I explained (again :P) that there was no more milk or stories, and left her room and within 10 minutes she was asleep with minimal fuss! Such a relief.
Now to just get rid of the night feed ::)!
Awesome update :D
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great news :)
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Thought I'd pop back for some more help :-[
Positives....Ev is settling to sleep *much* better on the whole. feed, cuddle in the dark, lay in bed awake and will sometimes cry and need a back stroke for a couple of minutes, but generally is fine :)
Not so great...she is up several times in the night still and although she will sometimes settle back with DH before midnight, most night wakings she will NOT settle at all unless she is fed (so I usually just feed her :-[). We stayed firm the other night and I didn't feed her and she full on *screamed* and was in a desperate mess for nearly an hour with dh, and finally conked out. But she has hysterically screamed for two hours before now :'( and I just don't know what we do about it ???. I just don't know if it's reflux discomfort (the milk may be soothing her if it is) but she is on max doses of medication ???. Can these amounts of night wakings and this much screaming be 'just' a prop issue?
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Hi Honey, I don't have any BTDT advice on the BF prop thing at DD's age but my gut would tell me something else is also going on. Two hours seems a long time to continuously scream for milk, without passing out through exhaustion, which makes me think the reason it can take so long may be discomfort of some sort. But as I say, I'm not an expert on this subject so hopefully some of the Ladies will also chip in.
I do always have sympathy and (HUGS) at the ready though.x.
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Hugs xx
You know I'm still feeding at some NW's - when DS demands it ;) We have had an increasing number of nights when he has slept right through or has settled himself back to sleep quite happily with no intervention. I'm going to and fro with the idea that its a prop issue - I just don't know that it is. I think for DS its emotional need because I *know* he knows how to go to sleep but he really does wake and ask very articulately for me/DH and the other won't do and sometimes is happy with a cuddle and other times asks clearly for milk. As I have said on another thread, Logan screamed for 3hr and eventually DH just begged me to feed him, so we won't be doing that again any time soon. Knowing L, I cannot believe that he'd scream for 3hr over something he doesn't *need* on some level.
I did decide to ride it out and there have been times I've been really 'over it' and just wanted to stop but those thoughts last maybe 10mins, long enough to post but not long enough to really carry through consistently night after night. I don't think that's anything to be embarrassed about either.
Any teeth on the move causing a flare?
What's your gut tell you? What is your main concern re: the sleep - effect on you/family, effect on her (not having the solid sleep), something else?
Has she got allergy/intolerance issues that could be causing tummy pains/reflux?
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Any teeth on the move causing a flare?
I too wondered this.
I don't have any btdt experience on feeding to sleep but I'm inclined to agree with Bec, I suspect if you'd her straight away she may not wake several times more or have you tried that ??? Have you tried her with water?
((((((hugs))))) from a mummy of a 4.5yr old who still wakes ::)
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What's your gut tell you? What is your main concern re: the sleep - effect on you/family, effect on her (not having the solid sleep), something else?
Has she got allergy/intolerance issues that could be causing tummy pains/reflux?
My main concern is that I am absolutely exhausted - and it is majorly effecting every part of life. DS often has a couple of short NWs too, and is a habitual EWer - so on an average night DH are getting about 5 hours of broken sleep. I often can't get back to sleep after I've got up to feed her so some nights this week I've only had 4 hours :-\. So, I really need to sort this out.
She is MSPI and I do wonder if there is something else going on - I am just about to order some probiotics. She is a late teether so only has two teeth so far, so I suppose that could be causing a flare - thing is though that her sleep has *always* been terrible, and her first tooth only came through at 14 months!!
I don't have any btdt experience on feeding to sleep but I'm inclined to agree with Bec, I suspect if you'd her straight away she may not wake several times more or have you tried that ??? Have you tried her with water?
If I feed her she still wakes later on. Most nights up until now I have just fed her straight away, it is only the last few days we have started trying to get DH to settle her. Yep, tried water - she's having none of it :P!
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My main concern is that I am absolutely exhausted - and it is majorly effecting every part of life.
Oh Hun, bless you all, sleep deprivation is just the worst. IMHO if you feel this is something that is going to go on for the long term then I don't see as you having any choice but to work on removing the 'prop'. Sometimes dealing with an awful situation short term is 'do-able' because you know that you are making progress and one day soon you will get more sleep, but when it seems to be a never ending situation then it is even more exhausting and can push you to breaking point.
You can't cope long term on 5 hours broken sleep, your body will break and you need to be feeling well for both your LO's.
Lots of sympathy and a hug big (HUG)
x.
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Could she need more A time or something before bed? Perhaps a routine tweak? Only cos she may need to sleep more heavily ???
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My main concern is that I am absolutely exhausted - and it is majorly effecting every part of life. DS often has a couple of short NWs too, and is a habitual EWer - so on an average night DH are getting about 5 hours of broken sleep. I often can't get back to sleep after I've got up to feed her so some nights this week I've only had 4 hours . So, I really need to sort this out.
Fair enough, just wanting to understand your motivation. Sleep deprivation is really hard and as Vicki said, sometimes it is easier to deal with some difficult nights with the goal of getting more sleep.
She is MSPI and I do wonder if there is something else going on
For me personally, having this uncertainty in my mind while STing has been the thing that makes me cave before I've even really begun. I guess what I'm saying is that IME, you (and your DH) will need to be 100% decided that sleep training is the right path and you have the right plan for it to work :-*
Posted with Laura - I presume she's on one nap? If not, I'm guessing its because she's too tired from the bad nights - maybe that is the push she needs?
BIG hugs xx
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Apologies if I've missed this, but does she go to sleep truly independently? Does she go into her cot wide awake? Does she definitely know how to get herself to sleep without being fed? And an unrelated question, will she take a bottle?
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will she take a bottle?
I wondered this too.x.
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Apologies if I've missed this, but does she go to sleep truly independently? Does she go into her cot wide awake? Does she definitely know how to get herself to sleep without being fed?
She's not happy about it *at all* - but yes she can, and does. But she will scream to be fed often when I am settling her if she is out of sorts/OT which is much of the time!). We sometimes have easy bedtimes but often will take quite a bit of fussing/crying to get to sleep with me in the room (had on back if she is particularly unsettled) or shh-ing from outside.
She is *massively* OT but we are struggling to tackle it with such terrible nights and shocking naps :(. She has just woken up and screamed for 35 minutes - what sort of cry do you think this is?? she desperately wanted me to feed her :'( :'( but I just know it's making things worse if I feed her early on in the night. I just don't know if she's in discomfort or *just* wanting to be fed to sleep ??? :'( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndbJRK05408&feature=youtu.be
Sorry for such a rambled post - I've had 3-4 hours sleep for the past week again and I'm at my wits end with it :-[
Oh, and no she doesn't take a bottle - I can't express and she refuses the dairy free formula (she's MSPI)
Thanks ladies
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Oh Honey, that cry breaks my heart let alone yours and DH. I have only heard Sam cry like this once and he had a chronic ear infection, but let's see what other's say. At the time he literally would not sleep at all unless he passed out with exhaustion, I walked the streets in the MOTN with him in the PC, so if she can be settled, then maybe she is just protesting :'(. It's desperately hard when you know/think a BF would stop the crying, but FWIW I honestly think it has to stop to give her the very best chance of becoming rested. Big (Hug) for you for being so strong Sweetie.
(Hugs)
x.
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:'(
Oh sweetie. I think you have to get her checked out (her ears I'm thinking) just so you know feel reassured in yourself that she's not in pain. Although if she was in discomfort, it doesn't make sense that she would settle easily with a BF? That's what makes me wonder if this is an independent sleep issue.
If you decide that this is about independent sleep I think my plan would be to be 100% strict about BF to sleep. I would BF before naps and at bedtime BUT: at nap I would BF downstairs 15 mins before starting wind-down. That way if she kicks off asking to be fed you know she's not hungry (like, if she hasn't eaten well at lunch) and she's had the cuddle time too. Likewise at bedtime I'd introduce something between end of BF and bedtime. Like, brush her teeth, or do a story, or BF her in just her babygrow and put her in her sleep sack after BF. So she's properly awake.
Can you talk to her about it at the start of wind-down .Real simple language but something like "you're going to go to sleep now. Mummy will stay with you in your room but it's time to sleep." So she knows what's expected. I wouldn't shush or touch her, I'd just sit next to the cot and say "You have to lie down E, it's time to sleep, mummy is here." Matter of fact. Does she have a lovey? I know it's late in the day but could you persuade her to take a dummy? If BF is comforting to her, maybe a dummy and the sucking action would fulfil the same need? Audrey gets a right head of steam on very quickly if she wakes up fully and I feel like it helps me to be able to tell her what to do. "Aud, grab your lovey. Find your dummy. Thaaat's right now lie down please. No, no fuss, no crying, it's sleep time now." I find that if I shush, she can just tune me out and screams so loud she can't hear me but if I talk to her (quite a loud, firm voice, not stern, but not whispering, yk) she sort of has to pause even just a tiny bit to listen to me. The good thing about talking to her rather than shushing or touching her means I can do it from right the other side of the bedroom if needs be.
Also with the signing, can you teach her the sign for 'hurt'? WHERE and HURT are so useful, if you can ask her, then perhaps she could show you where/if it hurts?
I'm so sorry you're all having such a rough time :'(
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L screams like this and for hours on end, so that's why I haven't got the strength to drop the NF. I cannot convince myself that he is not in pain. Last time we tried, I was in tears thinking I'd missing reflux for over a year because I thought I could hear him fluxing but for me, there is just enough doubt, yk? He STTN from 5-6 months til 11.5 then started waking again when he had a language explosion :(
Honestly, he has STTN a few times recently and its been when he's not OT. I'm hanging onto the hope that once he's better rested, he will STTN again.
Does she settle eventually with pain meds? I just wonder, because BM has an analgesic component and it kicks in faster than meds so its still my go-to when teething/sick.
HUGS! This is not easy :-*
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Dd sounds like this when she gets past it and just can't wind down to the point where i think she has forgotten why she was initially crying. She also sounds like this when she's ill. So many (((((hugs)))))
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Thanks so much for your replies :-*
I think you have to get her checked out (her ears I'm thinking) just so you know feel reassured in yourself that she's not in pain. Although if she was in discomfort, it doesn't make sense that she would settle easily with a BF? That's what makes me wonder if this is an independent sleep issue.
If you decide that this is about independent sleep I think my plan would be to be 100% strict about BF to sleep. I would BF before naps and at bedtime BUT: at nap I would BF downstairs 15 mins before starting wind-down. That way if she kicks off asking to be fed you know she's not hungry (like, if she hasn't eaten well at lunch) and she's had the cuddle time too. Likewise at bedtime I'd introduce something between end of BF and bedtime. Like, brush her teeth, or do a story, or BF her in just her babygrow and put her in her sleep sack after BF. So she's properly awake.
Anna, thank you. Your whole post really helped. She had her ears checked several times and they are fine - so the only discomfort I am wary of is reflux issues - tricky to get her to sign (it's a less specific place than teeth iyswim) for that but I will start teaching her the pain sign and then a least I can ask her about it. I know that with reflux pain milk does help to soothe it which is why I always question whether thats why she's so desperate for feed :-\. You are right - I am going to start creating a 15 min gap between feeds and sleep times. I think I will do this for the next 5-6 days and still feed at night if she won't settle. Then when I am sure she is 100% able to self settle then we can tackle in the night wakings as it will be more clear whether it's a prop or discomfort issue hopefully.
No, she's not interested in a lovely or a dummy - and it really doesn't help matters :-\. Ben always had a dummy when he was little, and is still massively attached to his Mr Rabbit and it still helps him to calm down. Maybe I'll have another push at seeing if there's a soft toy she would like.
She is SO very spirited - so it is definitely possible that the screaming could be protesting. It was funny last night (well, kind of ::)), she was screaming inconsolably and DH asked her is she wanted him to sing her a song and she immediately stopped screaming, politely said "No" and then carried on :P!
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She is SO very spirited - so it is definitely possible that the screaming could be protesting. It was funny last night (well, kind of ), she was screaming inconsolably and DH asked her is she wanted him to sing her a song and she immediately stopped screaming, politely said "No" and then carried on !
LOL there's your answer, she's just a very strong willed but polite little girl ;)
x.
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I'm definately no expert but my first thought was a 'Protesting' or annoyed cry, like she is REALLY not happy that she has to go to bed! My DD very occasionally cries similar to this when she can't get her own way, fortunately its very rare now! Hugs to you all as whatever the reason its still heartbreaking to hear
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HUgs Claire...to me she sounds really cross but I would def get her ears checked just to rule it out like pp's have suggested xxxxxxxxxx
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how are things today?
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Thanks Becky.
Rough day, but I feel like we're making some slow progress :). I've started BF her downstairs before naps, and then at bedtimes I feed her before doing teeth, books and sleeping bag. Last night it took 45 minutes of screaming for her to settle, same for her nap today, but 20 minutes for bedtime and she was less frantic. So we do definitely have a worse prop issue than I thought :P! We'll do this for the next few days and then tackle the NWs.
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so many vibes flying your way xxxxx
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Many hugs, and vibes. My little girl has a good bit of spirit in her, and I was surprised when I figured out that I was a prop for her. I mean she was going in to her cot awake - but drowsy. The 'drowsy' was the key, she needed to do that part by herself in order to be able to settle herself at night. Of course, I'm not one to give advice really, she's still having a NF at 13 months old, but it's much, much better than it was, she sleeps well all night (no more 1-2hr NWs), and just wakes the once to feed.
20 mins at bedtime tonight sounds good. Fingers crossed it's the start of a positive trend. Angry, crying, screaming bedtimes are SO stressful for everyone, I really hope you both (all!) get some more peaceful evenings and nights very soon.
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I mean she was going in to her cot awake - but drowsy. The 'drowsy' was the key, she needed to do that part by herself in order to be able to settle herself at night.
Yep, that's it exactly! I can't believe I've not realised it sooner!
She woke at 8.30pm (usual for her) and whereas usually it takes 20mins+ to settle her back she just made a few wimpering noises and went back to sleep on her own :D.
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That is a good, good sign!! I am going to have my fingers crossed all night so pleeeease come on in the morning and tell us how the night went? ;) :-*
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Oh Claire, keeping everything X'd for you too that this is the beginning of much better times to come :-X
:-*
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She woke at 10ish again, and DH just went in and rolled her over as she'd got stuck but she settled straight away :). Then she woke at 2.45am so DH went into her when she started crying but she was saying "Mama, Mama" so I went into her, and sat next to her cot until 4.05am :-X while she settled herself. It was SO much different to when she has been up before as although she kept getting frantic she also kept calming herself down and going quiet. So I *knew* she was OK, and just waited for her to get herself back to sleep ;D. She woke at 6am and DH brought her into me for me to feed her before he took her downstairs, but she nodded back off in bed with me til 7.45 which I was fine with as I figured it's better she doesn't get massively OT.
Then I've just taken her up for her nap. Fed her, then changed her nappy and did her books. Had a cuddle where she protested a bit but then pu her in her cot wide awake and she settled herself completely - woop :D!
So I really feel like we are making massive progress, and although I was up for ages in the night it felt positive rather than just exhausting! And no night feeds!!
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That is a really wonderful update!! I know you don't want to speak too soon... but I'm hopeful... very hopeful... it feels like maybe she's turning a corner...??? *whispered 'yaaayyy'!!!*
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wow - brilliant!!
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And she took a 1hr 45 minute nap which is the longest she's done all week :). I'm actually looking forward to tonight as I feel like we're moving forward for once :D!
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Then I've just taken her up for her nap. Fed her, then changed her nappy and did her books. Had a cuddle where she protested a bit but then pu her in her cot wide awake and she settled herself completely - woop !
Whoop whoop!!!!!!!!!! ;D
So I really feel like we are making massive progress, and although I was up for ages in the night it felt positive rather than just exhausting! And no night feeds!!
A positive plan always makes you feel better than carrying on as things are doesn't it.
Well done Honey, those night times sitting by the cot are so freakin' hard and I'm sure we've all been there and never forget it.
EVERYTHING X'D EVEN MY EYES ;)
x.
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EVERYTHING X'D EVEN MY EYES ;)
HA!! ;D
Took two minutes to settle herself tonight so she seems to be getting the hint :)
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Took two minutes to settle herself tonight so she seems to be getting the hint
Awesome! clever girl, she catches on very quickly :) Or was it my X'd eyes that did it ;)
x.
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Oh Claire, I've only just caught up. I'm so glad things are looking up, that scream is powerful and terribly sad. Hoping, hoping for a better night for you all! :-* :-*
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Hmm, I may have been slightly over-optimistic about last night ::)! Can't quite remember what happened but I was up for at least one 40 minute NW, but she did settle herself so that is still a massive improvement. She then woke at 5.15am and was obviously genuinely hungry so I fed her and she conked back out (in my bed again :-[) until 7.15.
Then she took a 30 minute nap at 11.30 (dh was aiming for 11 but it took a while for her to settle), and she's refused a second nap all day ::). So took 40 mins to settle and asleep for 5.40pm.
Eyes crossed for tonight ;)
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good luck for tonight xx
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Hows it going Claire?
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I caved in last night ::).
She was asleep for 5.40pm, brief NW at 10pm and DH just had to go in for 30 seconds and shh her as she wasn't settling. Then she woke again at 4.15am and I just fed her straight away and put her back in her bed awake and she settled herself. Not ideal, but we'd already been up with DS with a nightmare and and I couldn't bear the thought of her waking him up (he'd gone to sleep at 5.30pm so I knew he wouldn't resettle!). Then she woke for the day at 6am. So not too bad but I just hope I haven't made things worse for tonight.
She is up there screaming now with DH in the room :(. It's not helping that she's got a cold so it's really hard to know how much to comfort her in the usual ways (cuddling longer, feeding when she wants to be settled that way), when I know that it's not helping her get much rest in the long term :-\ .
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Hi Hun, (Hugs) to you, I think it is very hard when your LO is sick, especially when you are mid sleep training because you want to strike a balance between too much and not enough. I would however avoid the feed if you possibly can, sorry :-X guess you knew I would say that ;) but in the long term it is confusing for her and will mean the ST takes longer which is more tiring for you all. Try offering her a drink of water in a sippy if she has cried for a long time because she may be thirsty. Also as much as you can avoid taking her out of the cot, kneel down and give her a hug whilst she stands in the cot first and see if that works. If you deem her upset enough to need a cuddle then just do it for a minute to help calm her and then put her back down, this is what Tracy advised. There is obviously improvements happening though, so well done :) hang in there and try and stay resolute.
More (Hugs)
x.
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2 1/4 hour night waking last night :'( >:( :'(
and she only finally settled because I held her :-[
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Oh honey (((hugs))). Have the nights been getting worse or was this unusual? What do you do during a NW, just sit in her room with her?
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Last night I just sat in her room near her cot and spoke to her every so often. Also offered a drink and medicine which she said "no" to. She kept going quiet, and even though she was frantic some of the time it was overall calmer than a couple of weeks ago. But after 2 hours I had totally lost the plot and so rather than resorting to shouting ::) :-X, I thought it would be best to pick her up and hold her :) (good choice, Mama ;)!). She settled really quickly and then cried again when I put her in the bed buy finally settled herself again.
I had completely stopped feeding her in the night but at the start of her cold when she was obviously feeling rough, I did feed her in the night which I know has probably made everything so much worse :-\. *But* I made sure I fed her straight away rather than after a long time of her crying - as I don't want her to think that if she just keeps crying then I will cave in. Still confusing for her though :(.
There's not really much else I can do is there apart from sticking with it?!
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That's interesting. Audrey will often settle really quickly with a cuddle. How have the other nights been? Are you still getting long NWs every night or was that one unusual?
I think Aud and Ev are living parallel lives, she's also had a really bad cold and needing BF at night...
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4am til 5.45am :'( :'(
I really don't know what to do ???.
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4am til 5.45am :'( :'(
I really don't know what to do ???.
Sorry, should've said this was how long she screamed for. Then went back til 7.30am. Then has taken a 25 minute nap all day :(. I really feel lost with what to do next as things seem to be going from bad to worse ???. Any ideas?!
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Claire, oh Hun, bless you, you must be major stressed. Can you fill me in on the status quo Hun please. Have you stopped the NF ??? are you full on ST, or did you stop when she got sick ??? is she better now ???
Sorry I need a re-cap :-[ TS is busy and I have so many different thing in my head right now ::) I need my brain oiling or something ;)
(Hugs)
x.
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Sorry I need a re-cap :-[ TS is busy and I have so many different thing in my head right now ::)
:-* well please don't worry about trying to figure things out for me! I know that no-one else is going to be able to fix this for us - just nice to be able to come here and get a couple of thoughts from you ladies :)
Yes, apart from feeding her a couple of times when she started coming down with a cold I've not been feeding her in the nights or directly before sleep time (whereas a couple of weeks ago she was having 1-3 feeds a night ::)). I have either been sitting in her room, or sitting outside and talking to her when needed. There has been a *lot* of crying, and it just feels horrible. It doesn't help that she's not interested in a lovey/dummy as she doesn't seem to have any mechanism for calming herself down and just ends up crying and crying :-[.
She is on one nap (has been for ages as I lost the will to live as putting her down for *two* naps meant twice the time of screaming and stress :-[). She was, at one point, doing 12 hour (broken) nights, and 2 hour naps. But her naps are way OT now, but I just can't seem to do anything to help her. Tried a two nap day the other day and she didn't end up settling til 11.15am anyway :-\.
That's interesting. Audrey will often settle really quickly with a cuddle.
She will finally settle after writhing around screaming in my arms for 5 minutes, but then will scream as soon as I put her in bed and the whole cycle just starts again - so I've really been trying not to get her out of bed as in some ways it just seems to prolong things.
I had her asleep for 6 tonight, much later than I hoped as I had to sort Ben out too, and she took ages to settle again.
Do you ladies think we just carry on as we are or am I missing something :-\?
Thanks all :-*
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oh hugs claire, I wish I had something to offer but I know you have struggled with E's sleep for ages now. What A time do you work to for naps? I would imagine a lot of it is OT like you say but you are doing EBT's already and not sure what you can do apart from that?? I would suggest 2 naps tbh but if it makes things harder then not ideal...will have a think xxx
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Hey Hun, oh my goodness, it sounds exhausting.....
as I put her in bed and the whole cycle just starts again
This was Sam at 10 months when I was feeding him back to sleep whilst teething, and he was waking 8 times a night. I went cold turkey with the NF and did PD and GW.
I also wish I had more to give Hun, it's just trial and error to find out how to get the most sleep in her...
So much sympathy and a Big Hug to you.
x.
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She slept a 12 hour night :o ;D :o! She even woke at 5.45am and resettled herself :D.
I know that she was obviously thoroughly exhausted from her 25 minute nap, but I'm hoping that if she has slept through once it means she will be more likely to do it again. Bearing in mind how ot she is, I am wondering about whether to try for 2 naps today (easier at the wkend as dh can be with Ben).
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Oh brilliant!! I hope you managed to get some decent rest too? I'd prob try for 2 naps... Wish I could be more help, I was so hopeful that the independent sleep was going to be the answer. (((Hugs)))
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Great news Hun.
x.
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yay!
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how was your day after the good night?
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Thanks Becky :-*
She took ages to settle (crying) for her nap, and then took a 1hr15 min one. Aimed for an early night but she screamed for almost an hour and finally conked out at 6.30pm. Up at 5.10am this morning - with a couple of brief NWs. So still better than it has been!!
I just really am struggling that she is crying so much - it just feels wrong :-\. She is SO ridiculously spirited though, and will often go completely crazy in the daytime if she is not getting what she wants - so I do know that this is playing a part at night time.
"Just keep swimming, just keep swimming....."
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"Just keep swimming, just keep swimming....."
bless you!!
FWIW M is only half spirited but we are having lots of the same right now. 1.15 naps at best (Fri was 35 mins!) and last night DH had to deal with her at BT as she was crying so much but when I went to her she would try talking to me inbetween crying!!
I 'think' we have canines about to push through - could Ev be struggling with that?
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did you do 2 naps today?
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Am doing two naps today as she was up from 3.50am-5am :-\. What time do you think I should do a second nap?
A - 6.30am
S - 9.50ish (not sure exactly when she dropped off) - 10.20 capped
S - ?
She seems to be waking up at 4ish every day and screaming for 1-2 hours. This has been going on now for almost two weeks despite us being consistent - no NFs (apart from the couple over a week ago when she was poorly), no feeding just before bedtime. She will often settle back but then as soon as we move to go out of the room she wakes again, and just screams and screams :(. She doesn't seem to be teething (only got two teeth so definitely not canines yet!). She's often just screaming for half an hour at bedtimes still - how long can it take for them to learn fully independent sleep....we're losing the plot here :P :(
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Honestly I think I'd probably stick with one nap from now on. She's 16 months old and sometimes I think going back and forth between one nap and two doesn't help matters. How about trying W2S at about 3am?
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if you are doing 2 today I would do second nap at about 1.30pm.
So many hugs - if it were me I would do meds for the early hours waking - maybe a DF meds if that is possible. It could be she is very sensitive to pain and sometimes the teeth pushing down can hurt a lot.
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Hi Sweetie, dropping of some ((Hugs)) and sympathy :'( IIWM I would probably try and stick with 1 nap too, even though I know how hard that can be (BTDT) but if you could push her even to 4.5 from WU then you can allow her an uncapped nap and organise BT accordingly. SEBT often results in tacking where as EBT doesn't because (I may have said this before ??? :-X) the OT monster has CU when SEBT has been and gone and EBT has arrived. I think this is for many EBT doesn't work. Are you at home to do SEBT ??? It's worth a try ;) By adding an extra hours A time on to the day you can rob way in excess of an hour over night.
I agree with Becky about nap time, I would go with 3.5 maximum to hopefully achieve a decent nap, although I wonder if slightly shorter would be better :-\
Remind me have you tried W2S for the 4am WU ??? How long has she slept by then ???
x.
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yes I must admit you know how loathe I am to do EBT's but the last few days m has literally done abut a 40 min nap with plenty of crying involved so we have been doing EBT and last night she slept 13 hours!!
Today I did contemplate 2 (I know it is largely OT) but the faff involved has made me resolve to stick with 1. Obviously if she was awake for the day at 5am it would be different.
I think you have nothing to lose with the meds, at least you will know then if pain is contributing.
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so we have been doing EBT and last night she slept 13 hours!!
That's great Becky :D how is she ??? do you think it's down to her being poorly or the short nap or both ??? Or just that EBT worked for once :o nooooo surely not lol ;)
x.
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she has a thick cold but meds make no difference at all so either she has 4 teeth coming in at once or more likely she can't breathe properly. I cannot figure it out because nights are fine but naps are so so bad. Just done another 1.10 today. Better than 40 I guess....
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Ah bless her, maybe it's a bit if both. I think sometimes because the nap is lighter sleep they're more affected than at NT. Hope it's over soon.
Sorry Claire! hijacking :-X ;)
x.
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yes sorry!
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I cannot figure it out because nights are fine .
Becky, I do not mind you hijacking my thread but you must not post comments like this ;) ;D!! Yey for her 13 hour night :D, boo for her cold.
And back to Little Miss rubbish nights, rubbish naps..... :)
IIWM I would probably try and stick with 1 nap too, even though I know how hard that can be (BTDT) but if you could push her even to 4.5 from WU then you can allow her an uncapped nap and organise BT accordingly. SEBT often results in tacking where as EBT doesn't because (I may have said this before ??? :-X) the OT monster has CU when SEBT has been and gone and EBT has arrived. I think this is for many EBT doesn't work. Are you at home to do SEBT ??? It's worth a try ;) By adding an extra hours A time on to the day you can rob way in excess of an hour over night.
Yep, I haven't done 2 naps for ages - in fact only attempted a handful over the past few months if she's been up at some unearthly hour! But today I just felt like there was no option. She is taking short naps almost every day - sometimes only 30 minutes. Yesterday she took a better 1.5 hour nap but that was only because I put her down early at 11am (she's always done better with short first A time) - and so we always end up with a looong afternoon. I am a massive fan of SEBTs (Ben still goes to bed at 5pm occasionally!) but I just find that because of how long it takes for her to settle, and also having B to look after, they just end up being regular EBTs which aren't enough, so she just wakes 10 hours later. I think that's probably why we're having these persistant 4am-ish wake-ups.
Funnily enough today she has settled beautifully for each sleep time - *completely* uncharacteristic which makes me wonder if OT is causing much of the problem now :-\.
Remind me have you tried W2S for the 4am WU ??? How long has she slept by then ???
No, I've not tried it - and I think I will start if she doesn't sleep any better tonight. She has normally slept between 9-10 hours by then. I know she would go straight back with a feed and that is the painful part ::). Actually, no, the painful part is that she wakes at 4, takes til 5.15am to settle and then B wakes at 5.30 >:( ::)! Off to bed in a minute...thanks for your help ladies :-*
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Becky, I do not mind you hijacking my thread but you must not post comments like this !
oops, yes sorry hun!!
I do think it sounds like OT...M has been very much the same. The one day I did 2 naps she ended up sleeping 1.5 hours and no crying at BT. Every other day has been a short nap :(
Good luck for tonight xxx
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Becky, I do not mind you hijacking my thread but you must not post comments like this !
oops, yes sorry hun!!
Oh go on let her Claire, it really doesn't happen often that Becky gets to brag about super sleeps LOL ;) Eh Becks ??? :-*
x.
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No, I never begrudge a fellow mummy a good nights sleep! X
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how's it going claire - any progress? Is she still waking around 4am? Did you try meds?
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Yesterday she woke at 5.20am - I think better because she'd had two naps.
I tried her for two naps again but she pooed and would not settle afterwards. So retried a bit later and she finally conked out at 12, and woke at 12.50 ::)
I tried to get her down for a SEBT but she was in a state again, and took til 6.20pm to settle her.....woke at 4.40am this morning. This morning her room was freezing (forgotten to put her radiator on) so I ended up bringing her into bed with me. She ended up having a bit more sleep from 6-7am.
When she was younger she was always on the higher end of sleep needs, and thrived on low A times (pushing them to 'average' times always led to short naps) - so I am wondering whether I should be giving her a couple of two nap days each week to help her catch up on sleep. She has been having one nap days 95+% of the time and they are not lengthening as she is so OT :-\. She is definitely spirited and touchy like Ben!
When I was feeding her in the night we were actually getting 12-14 hour nights because she would often go back for another couple of hours if I fed her between 4-5am, so I think this may be why she's getting more OT now and struggling more on one nap.
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Well, I'm not one really to take advice on on this but if she's only waking once in the night at 4-5am, I'd just feed her and get your couple of hours more sleep. That's what I do with Audrey. Quick feed and she goes back to sleep til 7. Not ideal I know, but sometimes she does sleep through til 6-6.30 without waking.
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Yep, we were doing that for a couple of months, but then the waking just got earlier and earlier until she ended up waking twice or more every night ::). I have been wondering about trying it I just don't want to go backwards yk :-\
ACK, just woken after 30 mins :(. Give me strength :'( :'(
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(Hugs) strength and deep breaths Honey.x.
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Now taking forever to get her to sleep even though she's thoroughly past it. Was aiming to get her down for 5pm.
I don't really feel I have any option but to do two naps tomorrow :-\. Trouble is I have to be out of the house from 9.45 - 10.15am so no idea what time I would do it. But we can't keep having these OT naps and 9-10 hours nights, it's spiraling out of control. Just feel so stuck. Sorry for sounding like a wet lettuce, I'm struggling. It's Ben too, short nights, 5am wakings and becoming increasingly difficult to be around :(.
Right, any other ideas that I might have missed....apart from whisky ;)? Oh I medicated her before her nap - so not teeth. She's only got two teeth so no canines coming through yet, and they don't seem to bother her at the moment.
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Sorry for sounding like a wet lettuce,
don't even say that - you are amazing, I feel we have it hard atm with M and it is not the same as what you have been through with Ev and her reflux etc. Seriously, give yourself a break...
Personally I would not do night feeds at this point seeing as how hard you have worked on it and how she can manage without but that is your call. I don't BF, maybe if i had then mine would have had night feeds for longer.
If you do 2 naps then I would aim for about 3.5 hours after wake up if that is possible. xx
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Hi Claire
I have only read the past 2 pages and your first post, so please forgive me if you've already answered these questions but..
how long ago did she go to one nap? What was the reason for switching?
Is she still an independent sleeper?
Currently-what is her average wake up time in which she's up for the day?
What time is her 1st nap (if applicable) and/or only nap?
On average-what time is bedtime?
From the little bit that I've read it seems to me that this is all OT related. I'm not sure of your current routine, but IIWM (and it was this time last year!!) I would go back to 2 naps for about a week or however long it takes her to catch up before you reasses if she's actually ready for one nap.
If she's EWing and not going back to sleep, I would start her nap around 8:15 if she needs it and closer to 9am if not. There are certain biological sleep windows when the body is ready to sleep and those times are around 8:30am and 12:30/1pm. If you can get your LO to sleep in these windows, they produce the most restorative nap because you're matching the timing of sleep with the body's readiness.
Depending on the length of the nap and her mood in the late afternoon/early evening, I would also do EBT of about 3-4 hours after she wakes from the last nap.
She will likely fight it for a few days because her body clock is probably mixed up a bit, but with some consistency you can totally help her get the sleep she needs.
If you are not able to/unwilling to go back to 2 naps, then I would be starting her one nap somewhere between 12ish if she's been up since 5 ish, and closer to 1 if she's woken up later (but not later than 1pm) Then (again depending on the length/quality of that nap), I would do super early bedtime consistently for about 2 weeks or until you start to see her sleep in later in the morning.
Hang in there momma! I was totally going through this last year and it was awful (more like a black hole of depression that sucked the life out of me and my husband) but we got back on track and so can you!!
Be prepared for tons of consistency and some time for it to start working, but she's just super OT so we can fix this! :)
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FWIW I totally agree with smurfette about the OT.
Smurfette - I have a question about the 1 nap day. How come you would put her down at 12pm if she has been up since 5am. Won't she be waaaayyy OT?
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Thanks for taking the time to right out such a long reply :-*
how long ago did she go to one nap? What was the reason for switching?
Is she still an independent sleeper?
Currently-what is her average wake up time in which she's up for the day?
What time is her 1st nap (if applicable) and/or only nap?
On average-what time is bedtime?
She has been on one nap for about about 3 months consistently I think - I basically moved her to one nap out of desperation as it was destroying our family trying to put her down for two naps every day. She has basically always been a terrible sleeper because of severe silent reflux (she is now on a *lot* of medication and it is now under control), and it would often take 1-2 hours to settle her for each nap and I just couldn't leave my DS on his own twice a day for that long :'(. So far from ideal routine wise, but she would often do a long night (broken). DS didn't drop his nap til 18 months so it felt very early.
Yep, now a (reluctant!) independent sleeper.
Average for this week has been 4-5.30am. We always try to resettle her and she will sometimes go back until 6.30/7am - but it can take 1hr+ settling.
She's been doing one nap - normally put down between 11.15am-11.45am. Often takes her ages to settle though so can end up conking out later.
Bedtime - we do early bedtimes. On a great nap day our latest bedtime would be 6.45pm at the moment. But I have been trying for SEBTs of 5.15/5.30pm when she does stupidly short naps - but often doesn't fall asleep til 6.30pm anyway ::). Like tonight.
From the little bit that I've read it seems to me that this is all OT related.
I think OT is now the *remaining* issue - whereas before the main issues were reflux/ears/self settling issues which is why our routine was non-existent. Hopefully now those things are tackled, I can 'just' work on routine!
I'm not sure of your current routine, but IIWM (and it was this time last year!!) I would go back to 2 naps for about a week or however long it takes her to catch up before you reasses if she's actually ready for one nap.
If she's EWing and not going back to sleep, I would start her nap around 8:15 if she needs it and closer to 9am if not. There are certain biological sleep windows when the body is ready to sleep and those times are around 8:30am and 12:30/1pm. If you can get your LO to sleep in these windows, they produce the most restorative nap because you're matching the timing of sleep with the body's readiness.
If she EWs tomorrow then I will try this - it also means I can fit it around DSs preschool.
then I would be starting her one nap somewhere between 12ish if she's been up since 5 ish, and closer to 1 if she's woken up later (but not later than 1pm) Then (again depending on the length/quality of that nap), I would do super early bedtime consistently for about 2 weeks or until you start to see her sleep in later in the morning.
When she falls asleep this late she *always* takes a v. short OT nap (today being a case in point - 30 mins). Then she was so OT at bedtime it took her an hour of crying to fall asleep. That is what I am struggling with :-\.
I think I'm going to try going back to two naps then, and I wonder if I've been putting her down too late - more like 4 hours A time. So will try earlier tomorrow. Thanks so much ladies :)
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Becky-yes she will be, but the goal is to get to a nap time that is more in line with the sleep windows. So Claire could do a nap at 11 one day and then 11 30 etc but I just don't want her to get stuck there. You want to move that nap into the proper time and then do many weeks of EBT to compensate. The little thing is so OT right now as it is, at least if the nap is occuring in the proper spot then you can start to fix the rest of the issues.
Claire-you've got some really great things going for you-an independent sleeper, the fact that you're open to going back to 2 naps and that you support early bedtimes.
If you are going back to 2 naps, please stick with them and those times I mentioned for at least a week, if not longer-regardless if DD naps at them or not. It really does take a while to reset their body clock, plus coupled with the fact that you are within the 2-1 time frame, you need to give it time to see what she ends up doing. I wouldn't do one nap one day and then 2 another. At least for right now. Stick with 2 naps for at least a week.
Also, keep with early bedtimes as this is one of the fastest ways to help catch her up. So you want to be aiming for her to be asleep 3-4 hours from the wake up from the last nap. Watch her mood in the late afternoon as well as the quality of the naps to base bedtime on.
Also, when she short naps can you start to leave her in the crib to allow her time to potentially go back to sleep? I did this last year and it took about a week but my daughter started to go back to sleep. Try to leave her to at least the hour mark. Ie if she only naps 30 mins, leave her for at least another 30 minutes. You want to start to train her body to learn to lie there for longer than 30 minutes on a regular basis.
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So if I put her down at 12 and she sleeps half an hour then that gives a 3.30pm bedtime? I'm a big fan of sebt's but that feels pretty early!? Because I've got as and some commitments that I cannot change it will be likely that I will have to do a couple of one nap days still.
Thanks
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I've done 4:30 before and it worked really well, DS woke at 2:30am on the dot and went down again til 7 :)
Totally agree re: leaving her lying there after she wakes if you can - DS often will lie in bed for a while then go back to sleep and take a much longer nap.
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I do the same with M atm as her naps are so bad, I have an ideal of being in bed for 2 hours even if she short naps but sometimes I end up getting her after 1.5...
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Becky-yes she will be, but the goal is to get to a nap time that is more in line with the sleep windows. So Claire could do a nap at 11 one day and then 11 30 etc but I just don't want her to get stuck there.
exactly what has happened to us!!
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Up at 4.30am and screamed and screamed for 45 minutes so I ended up just taking her downstairs (which we never do) as she was going to wake Ben again :-\. I kept it dark and she just snuggled up with me. Going to try and put her down at 8ish ???. We've got a school open day from 11-12.30 so how long shall I give her this morning - 30 mins?
I do leave her when ican for naps but tbh she rarely resettled and ends up just screaming ::).
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Hugs hun - M can do 3/5 hours after a 30 min nap easily but if you cannot put her down until 1pm ish then I may be tempted to give her a bit longer i.e. 45??
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if I put her down at 12 and she sleeps half an hour then that gives a 3.30pm bedtime?
Well, no, that would be too early. ;) But if that happens I would for sure leave her there for at least 30 mins (if not more) and then try to have her asleep by 5pm.
so how long shall I give her this morning - 30 mins?
Sorry. I'm not sure what this means.
I do leave her when ican for naps but tbh she rarely resettled and ends up just screaming
Ok, keep doing it every single time so that it's consistent. It will take time to fix this, but half the battle is staying consistent with whatever you do.
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Just writing this down for my memory more than anything!
Today
A - 4.30am...nice
S - 9.05-9.50am (was aiming for 8.15 but it took almost an hour to settle her - not helped by the fact she did a poo :P)
S - 1.20-2.45 - woke herself
Bedtime - asleep at 6.20pm I think, so a long day
so how long shall I give her this morning - 30 mins?
Sorry. I'm not sure what this means.
I meant how long should her first nap be - if I let her take a full nap she refuses a second one or it takes so long to get her down that bedtime it ridiculously late.
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(((Hugs))), Claire, we're in a bit of a similar situation with EWs and it is just the worst when C also wakes early because G is up making noise. >:( If it were me, I'd let her have 30min at 8:30 and then the main nap can be 3-3.5hr later.
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Hey Hun, I agree with Katie, except I might even go with a slightly shorter first A time if she has had a short night and is struggling, otherwise it could be very hard to wake her after 30 mins and then she could be extremely grumpy afterwards :-\
Know what I mean Ladies ???
(Hugs) all round :-*
x.
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I meant how long should her first nap be - if I let her take a full nap she refuses a second one or it takes so long to get her down that bedtime it ridiculously late.
Oh, ok. I personally wouldn't be capping anything right now. She's OT and needs sleep. If she's fighting a PM nap it's because her body clock needs resetting and the OT is contributing to it, not because she's well rested. Just my opinion though.
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I meant how long should her first nap be - if I let her take a full nap she refuses a second one or it takes so long to get her down that bedtime it ridiculously late.
Oh, ok. I personally wouldn't be capping anything right now. She's OT and needs sleep. If she's fighting a PM nap it's because her body clock needs resetting and the OT is contributing to it, not because she's well rested. Just my opinion though.
Smurfette Hiya :) You see this is where I'm struggling with lots of LO's on TS in the same kind of predicament at the moment TBH. I always used to advise sleep begets sleep and in my heart I do still think this is first and foremost the thing to consider, but I do think it often needs to be in the short term ie: 2 to 3 days max, otherwise LO isn't able to reset their clock and often they end up in an OT/UT loop without capping. I must admit though when Sam was Evelyn's age it was often the quickest way to improve nights, so I definitely wouldn't rule it out.
The other sticking point is if the morning nap is early and uncapped and the pm nap is refused then you need to be able to achieve SEBT or it backfires :-\
Interesting debate ;)
x.
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The other sticking point is if the morning nap is early and uncapped and the pm nap is refused then you need to be able to achieve SEBT or it backfires :-\
Yep, I can see both sides of the debate too! But I think that actually if I am going to go back to two naps then I need to cap the first one for the time being rather than having the lottery of whether she will refuse a pm nap giving me a stressful SEBT. I have another lo to think about and it's already going to impact him that I am settling E for two naps again :(. Also Ev is on medication that needs to be given on an empy tummy and 30 mins before a meal. That means that it's hard to give an unplanned SEBT :-\.
I'll see what tomorrow brings and see how we go :)
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But I think that actually if I am going to go back to two naps then I need to cap the first one for the time being rather than having the lottery of whether she will refuse a pm nap giving me a stressful SEBT.
IMO I would def cap the first. She is OT yes but you do not want to risk nap refusal for the second nap and like you said with having Ben you don't want to be spending the entire day thinking abut sleep!! (like me atm!) I am under no illusions that this week H's behaviour has taken a slide again and M has been needing much more from me at sleep times.
Hope you got a good night x
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Well I decided to just give her an uncapped nap this morning (figured we've got nothing to lose and it's easier to try things out at the weekend)...she fell asleep at 9ish and it still sleeping :o! (just woke after 2hr25 mins). This is the child who hasn't had a decent nap for weeks! So who knows what will happen for the rest of the day but even if she doesn't take another nap then she will be better than the days when she only has one 30 minute nap :).
I am under no illusions that this week H's behaviour has taken a slide again and M has been needing much more from me at sleep times.
yep, it's horrible when it effects the other one isn't it - it's actually the thing I find the hardest about the whole thing :-\
x
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Good call then Honey. Hope she's a happier little bunny :) I'd still keep the afternoon short and not longer than 6 hours A time or you could undo all the good the nap did, but I'm a big believer in EBT ;) and SEBT! x.
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Hi there
If you cap a nap, then you need to ask yourself-for what reason and for how long. I understand that capping is needed sometimes when you get to the 2-1, but I wouldn't cap more than 45 minutes. A LO isn't going to survive very long on 30 minutes, especially if they are NWing, EWing and short napping.
(on a side note and as a general 'rule', I wouldn't let the morning nap go past 11 am, but that's not really going to apply to this age group ;) ).
Why cap the morning? Is it to ensure a Pm nap? If so, then I would first try moving the morning nap earlier for 4-5 days (yup, I know this is counter intuative, but sometimes going to 8:30 instead of 9 works for some reason), then I would try capping the morning nap at an hour, 45 minutes at the most for a week, then I would try moving the pm nap to 1:30 and then if your LO is still refusing a nap for 2 weeks straight, then I would move to 1 nap.
Claire if your LO is taking a 2 good naps, I would still keep bedtime to about 4 hours after they wake up. Any longer and they're going to get more OT, especially if they haven't been sleeping that well to begin with.
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great nap claire :)
Fingers crossed for you xx
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great nap claire :)
Fingers crossed for you xx
Here too! :-*
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how are the 2 naps going?
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Not great ::)
Yesterday she took an hour for her first nap, then took over an hour to get her down for her second one and she slept for 10 minutes ::). Then took over an hour to settle for bedtime so it ended up being too late and woke again at 4.50am. Nice ;)
Now she's headbanging in her room as she won't settle for her second nap of the day (this mornings I capped at 20 minutes as she settle too late for long pm nap if a two nap day, but too early for a one nap day :P).
But we are just bumbling through, I don't actually think there is a 'right' answer :-\
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What times did you try for those naps at? What time was bedtime? What was she doing during the hour it took her to fall asleep?
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Honestly, I can't remember. Similar to the day before. Bedtime was at 5 and it took until 6.20 for her to settle. She was on and off screaming, quiet, crying.
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(Hugs) Sounds like she's still very OT so I would continue to try for 2 naps for 4-5 more days.
Hang in there.
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I find 2 naps so hard now with H about......x
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Honey, I'm not sure 2 naps is going to get you anywhere any more. If you capped at 20 mins and she refused 2nd nap that tells me she needs to be allowed to nap uncapped and I would be looking at pushing her to 4.5 absolutely minimum, preferably 5 hours A time then let her zonk for as long as she will then bring in my old friend SEBT. Sorry to be repetitious, but BTDT, so I do know how you're feeling, but I am incline to think that all the chopping and changing is your worst enemy right now.
(Hugs)
x.
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I would be looking at pushing her to 4.5 absolutely minimum, preferably 5 hours A time then let her zonk for as long as she will then bring in my old friend SEBT. Sorry to be repetitious, but BTDT, so I do know how you're feeling, but I am incline to think that all the chopping and changing is your worst enemy right now.
thing is that's what I was doing for weeks and her naps were just getting shorterand shorter. Also it is just not possible for me to do early enough nights on a regular basis because of Ben and doing dinner/baths/bedtime on my own with two just seems to take forever with two ot spiriteds ::)
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It sounds completely exhausting Honey, I can see how your hands are tied. I guess you have no choice but to stick with 2 naps then because with short naps and normal BT I doubt she will cope :'(
A really ((((((BIG HUG)))))
x.
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we are so there too, it sucks for sure xx
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how are your nights atm?
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Much better than they were (no night feeds and she is generally much easier to settle back :)), but still rubbish :P. she is waking frequently due to ot and would not settle at 4am so we just figured we had to get some more sleep into her (she was screaming the house down which wakes Ben too ::)) so we had her in bed and she got an extra hour til 6.20
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at least there has been some improvement :)
We have the same with the rubbish naps and often EWings which is stressful but we have always had EWings so kinda used to it now. x
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I am losing my mind :'(
She has been taking one 30 or 20 minute nap every day for the past week and waking between 4-4.30am...I really do not know what to do anymore :'( :'(
We were trying again for a SEBT tonight and she has been screaming for over an hour. What on earth can I do ??? :'(. She is refusing early naps, or taking ages to fall asleep and then napping for 30-40 minutes. Then she will not take a nap later on at all, and takes an hour most nights to settle.
She is getting more and more OT that I just do not know how to get her out of it as she will just not sleep properly for naps *or* nights, will not be APOPed and is just in a complete state.
I'll post our 'routine' tomorrow to see if anyone has any thoughts, as DH did her nap today so I don't know the exact times - just that it took her an hour to settle (from 11-12ish) and she slept for 30 minutes :(....again.
Sorry, I don't even know what anyone can say :-[
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uggh, hun I really feel for you.
To me that seems more than just OT yk?? I can see how lo's get like that with OT but it usually 'breaks' at some point and with Ev it doesn't....
be back later x
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(((Hugs))) on phone and BFing so brief but have you tries a really short A like 4hrs?
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yes I think she has....
I 'think' Claire has been trying for 2 naps on the advice of Smurfette to get rid of the OT but it has been taking so long to get E down that it has been mainly 1 nap - is that right Claire?
Have you tried meds to see if it makes a difference at all?
I think that if she has been up since 4.30am she needs 2 naps but if she won't take them I am not sure what you can do.
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I wish I'd've written down what we did this week :-\
I had that one day where I gave her a really short A time (she was asleep at 3.5 hours) and she took a 2.25 hour nap which was great but it was so early and she refused a pm nap. Then took ages to settle for 'SEBT' so did another v. long pm and a short night.
Next day I tried short A time again and thought if I gave her a short am nap she would definitely take a pm one. Nope. 20 mins in the morning (capped) and then refused a pm one!
Next day tried again for early nap and took til 11am to settle, then took a 40 min one and refused one later on. Difficult to do a SEBT that night so another short night and EW.
The worst day was when I tried to settle her for 10.30am (I think) and it ended up being something like 1.45pm before she napped (got her up for 15 mins and gave her some lunch and tried again) and she then only took 30 mins.
Dunno, just feel like *nothing* seems to make any difference. I KNOW I'm supposed to be consistent, but when she is waking at such ridiculous times (and occasionally going back for an hour until 6.30) it is really hard to just 'push' her out as it clearly has been making things worse. It is only really this week that I have risked rocking the boat and tried out a few different things.
I 'think' Claire has been trying for 2 naps on the advice of Smurfette to get rid of the OT but it has been taking so long to get E down that it has been mainly 1 nap - is that right Claire?
Yep, and most days been only taking 20-30 minute ones :o
Have medicated and she still short naps - but I do think she is cutting a tooth (we're only on the 3rd one here though so no nasty molars or anything!)
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some kids do have very low pain thresholds though....I know teeth messed up SO much with H.
I wish I could come up with something for you Claire, I so want to be able to help.
Does she AP at all? I was wondering about a car or buggy nap in the am and then a pm nap at home, not long term, just to re-set and I know you have Ben but on days he is at pre school?
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Claire Honey, when you're chopping and changing every day it is often impossible to see what does and doesn't suit. Honestly Hun, IIWM I would formulate a plan and push her through it. If following her lead was doing some good I wouldn't say this, but it doesn't seem to be. There is no doubt it is an extreme situation and she must be shattered and you at the end of your rope entirely I should imagine. I remember how not having a set plan was the most stressful thing of all for me, all that guess work is exhausting :'(
IIWM I would go with a set A time of 4.5 or 5 if possible to start with. You can't plan past that at the moment IMHO because you have to see what happens to decide on BT.
I totally understand if you can't see yourself being able to follow through with this and that it's easier said than done ;) But, all be it for a shorter time, from a BTDT point of view I think it's worth a try.
(((Hugs)))
Vicki.x.
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Claire Honey, when you're chopping and changing every day it is often impossible to see what does and doesn't suit. Honestly Hun, IIWM I would formulate a plan and push her through it. If following her lead was doing some good I wouldn't say this, but it doesn't seem to be.
THIS ^^^ !!
You absolutely have to stick with the same thing for 5-6 days consistently before you can make a judgement call. You will never see changes/improvements if you don't. Make a plan, mark it on the calendar and follow through.
OT is cumulative and takes a long, long, LONG time to clear out of the system. And then it takes even longer to get on the plus side of things.
Night time sleep usually comes together first and then naps start to get fixed, however naps are notorious for taking 3-4 weeks to fix so consistency is extrememly important. Everytime you try something different, it sets you back another day.
In addition to that, when LOs are OT, they often take a long time to fall asleep-this is very common and very normal. It doesn't mean that they aren't tired, just the opposite. So you have to keep trying over and over, day in and day out with the early bedtimes.
Just as an example- my 26 month old needs several DAYS of good naps AND night sleep to recover from just one crappy nap. Yes she is sensitive to OT, but it just shows you how long it can take for OT to be overcome.
You never mentioned what times the 2 naps were happening at so I'm not sure how to troubleshoot that for you, but
I still think trying 2 naps is worth it, but only if you can aim for her to be *asleep* somewhere between 8:15 (on the days that you have EWs) and 9am for the 1st nap and then sometime around 12:30/1pm for the afternoon nap and then bedtime (asleep) about 3-4 hours after that-depending on the quality and duration of the naps.
If this is too hard or doesn't fit your routine, etc, then go to one nap and try to get it starting at 12pm within a week. Then be prepared to keep bedtime at around 5 (but again base it on the quality and duration of the nap) for about a month until she has made the transition.
With whatever option you choose, you also need to start leaving her when she short naps. If you can't stay out of the room, then go in but remain silent, don't take her out of her bed and don't turn any lights on. She needs to get used to laying there for longer periods of time, but when they're OT they just snap awake at that 30 minute mark.
The quickest way for her to return to sleep would be for you to leave her alone and not go into the room (and again, this likely won't happen the first time you try it, so you have to stick to it for several days) because our presence stimulates them and then they try to engage us, but if you need to in, then it's imperative that you don't start engaging her. Just sit there quietly. She needs to learn how to go back to sleep even when OT.
If you don't go back into the room, give her until the hour mark to see if she'll go back to sleep. If you go in, then I would give her to the hour and half mark.
I have BTDT and I totally understand what you're going through. It's so hard to make sense of things when you're completely frustrated and exhausted.
HUGE hugs to you.
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I 'think' claire has been trying for consistency though i.e. with an early nap as was suggested but E is not going down so then what does she do?
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This is my understanding too - that Claire has been trying to do two naps for a week, but getting 1 x 20 mins nap and refusal to settle for a second.
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Yep that's what I've been trying for. It sounds more inconsistent because she takes so long to settle or refuses naps and I'm trying to work with that. I'm also doing my best with ev while I've also got Ben who still needs putting down for a nap (got a cold) and sometimes just needs his mummy :)
dh is going to change his hours this week so that he can come home at 4.45pm so we can get ev in bed at 5 every night. She is so much like Ben and the only way we've ever been able to sort him out is with stupidly early nights
I'm going back to one nap now I know I'll be able to get her in bed for 5, as trying for two naps is just unrealistic for any longer as my mental health is suffering.
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sounds like a good plan Claire. If 5pm BT's work then that may be the only way to deal with the OT xx
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as trying for two naps is just unrealistic for any longer as my mental health is suffering
Totally understand! Sorry-wasn't sure if/when you were doing 2 naps. If they're causing too much stress then sounds like 1 nap is the way to go. That's great that you will be able to do EBTs too. Hang in there momma. :)
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Sorry Claire, I guess I wasn't following well enough there Hun. What a terribly hard time for you. Keeping everything X'd that something changes and soon.
((HUGS))
x.
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Sorry Claire, I guess I wasn't following well enough there Hun.
don't be daft ;). Just appreciate that you ladies, who I've never even met, are helping me out :-*
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so what is your plan today? How is it going dare I ask? We seem to have a 30 min nap for our big (ha ha) nap of the day.
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I know that Audrey's OT isn't even in the same realm, but she's getting OT when at the child-minder, and then we get hours of screaming at night, and on 'catch up days' we're doing 4-4.5 (MAX) A time, then a nap, then 4-4.5hrs A time to bed. Again, she's not near as OT as E, but the short A times seem to be working well.
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In bed at 5.20pm last night, and took an hour to settle. Then was up about four times in the night and I ended up bringing her in the bed with me at 5ish I think, til 6.40. Far from ideal, but B is so OT too that I can't risk her waking him ::). Nap ended up being late at 12.15 as I *had* to get out and so we met some friends at the library and went for an early lunch :). But she's been asleep for over an hour which is good in our house at the mo!
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yay!
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(((Hugs))), Claire, you are an amazing mom. I hope that you at least get some peace from the battle with this plan in place. It sounds like a decent start! :-* :-*
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(((Hugs))), Claire, you are an amazing mom. I hope that you at least get some peace from the battle with this plan in place. It sounds like a decent start! :-* :-*
Thanks Katie :). Yep, it's definitely a battle in more ways than one.
*but* today she took a 2 hour nap and was asleep at 6.30pm with no crying :), so I am enjoying the calm for today!
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so I am enjoying the calm for today!
and sleep.....go now while you get the chance LOL :-*
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wow lovely!
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....and up for the day at 4.30am. could not resettle her.
Any thoughts on what I should aim for today? ::) :)
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Oh God Claire, those 4.30 starts are hell. Okay so with Sam (yes, I remember it well) I would push him to 5 hours so a 9.30 nap uncapped (yes, I know) then he would sleep until 11 ish and I went for 5 pm BT. How about if you do the same this morning and if/when she short naps you try for another nap this afternoon. Or if she does a lovely long nap (hmm) you go for EBT.
HTH.x.
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uggh, you poor thing. What do you do if she wakes at that time? How do you try to settle her?
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I totally understand about wanting to protect B's sleep. Has he got white noise in his room? Has he got some ear defenders he can put on? Stan is very keen on having the 'right gear for the job' and I swear he positively revels in putting on his ear defenders when Audrey kicks off, and he goes straight back to sleep with them (and bizarrely can sleep for hours in them).
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Stan is very keen on having the 'right gear for the job' and I swear he positively revels in putting on his ear defenders when Audrey kicks off, and he goes straight back to sleep with them (and bizarrely can sleep for hours in them).
wow - what a star! I am pretty sure H would not go for that but it is worth a try claire...I know I really worry about H's sleep and that is half the reason I don't sleep well in the early hours xx
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Stan is very keen on having the 'right gear for the job' and I swear he positively revels in putting on his ear defenders when Audrey kicks off
LOL I love this, typical male! ;) think my DH would like some of those.x.
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Completely. He now wears a snorkel and diving mask in the bath. (sorry for the OT Claire :-* )
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Completely. He now wears a snorkel and diving mask in the bath. (sorry for the OT Claire :-* )
Oh my gosh, I love this!!! ;D
(((Hugs))) Claire... hope the day went ok!
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dare I ask how yesterday went??
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Just posted on your thread ;D....short nap, didn't settle to sleep til 6.30 (14 hour day :o), up at 4.30am, and just had short nap :P. So, nice ;)
nevermind!
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nevermind!
Bless you and your fingers, for even being able to type these words!
Okay Hun, I don't know if I suggested this before but here is something I did with Sam when we wre stuck with 4.30 WU. I gave him a nap very shortly after WU ie: 2.5 hours ish or as soon as he was ready, so it went like this:
WU 4.30
Nap 7 to 7.30
Then I started the day as if he had woken at 7.30 with normal A time to nap. Yes, it meant for a long day but it resulted in being able to push his BT later time which resulted in a normal WU the next day.
Any possibility this would work for her ???
x.
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that sounds like a plan xx
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how are you getting on Claire?
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Its not pretty :P :( but just plodding on. She's just had a 55 minute nap, still screaming for an hour most bedtimes, but there's not much more we can do :-\. Thanks for asking :-*
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:-* :-* :-*
wish there was more i could do. I imagine you are like me and hanging out for DH to finish work for xmas!! :P
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Sam here Claire, ((HUGS)) and sympathy to you. Hope DD is happy enough during the day.There's nothing worse than dreading those PD's for sleep.x.
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Adding to the (((hugs))), Claire! :-* :-* :-*
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I am completely beside myself. I cannot live like this and do not know how to help her to sleep. Really, we are doing everything and she is still sleeping terribly, and spend so many hours with her screaming that I am struggling to cope. I am trying to be consistent, but when she screams for hours before falling asleep, or then takes a ridiculously short nap I have no idea how I can do this. She is taking forever to settle at night so her bedtimes are too late and she wakes after 10 hours every night. Really, what can I do?
I have wondered about putting her to bed at 9pm one night just to totally throw her pattern, as we are not getting anywhere and this has been going on for so long I don't think we have much to lose. What does anyone think. If we could get melatonin here I would definitely be trying it as we are at our wits end :'( :'( :'( :'(
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that is why I wrote that this sounds like more to me than OT....OT breaks at some point, it does not go on and on and on, not with a parent like you that knows about healthy sleep habits and is doing all they can.
Do you think it might be worth a trip to the Dr just to get it off your chest? Is there one you like who you can just discuss this with. I know we have been and do go through bad sleep phases but what you describe with E seems different to me.
I know you said meds do not make a difference (I think?) but has she had her reflux dose checked recently? Could there be some intolerances going on? I am sorry if any of this sounds obvious, I just can't think this is simply an OT issue yk?
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Hugs Claire! Do you want to post your routine for the past 3 days-just for us to look at?
Also, I know you said you can't get it, but here is an article about melatonin use in kids and why it's not recommended. http://www.thefussybabysite.com/blog/melatonin-kids-sleep-deprivation/
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Claire, I have no idea, but have you investigated any holistic sleep aids ??? just wondering if there's anything safe and effective out there that might be available for her :-\
x.
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Also, I know you said you can't get it, but here is an article about melatonin use in kids and why it's not recommended. http://www.thefussybabysite.com/blog/melatonin-kids-sleep-deprivation/
Don't worry we can't get it in the UK anyway :-*...it'll have to be whisky ;)
Were going to up her reflux dose slightly (she has room for an increase as she's gained weight), and I'm going to cut hidden dairy again as she's mspi but I had been a bit more relaxed recently with my diet (still bf her).
the doctors don't really know what to say, and I'm reluctant to push incase they just tell me to do cc and I'm not ready for that conversation :-\.
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just wanted to send some more hugs Claire, so sorry about how things are :(
i don't know anything about mspi but would formula help at all??
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Oh Claire, (((hugs))). It really does seem like more than OT because she's still fighting you every time you put her down. I can't even imagine how this is wearing on you. :'(
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I'm reluctant to push incase they just tell me to do cc and I'm not ready for that conversation .
Unfortunately is has been suggested by GP's a lot recently on the boards, and it just makes me so sad and cross.
Oh Claire, (((hugs))). It really does seem like more than OT because she's still fighting you every time you put her down. I can't even imagine how this is wearing on you.
This exactly ^. I admire you so very much Honey, we all know how wearing it is when our LO's go through short let alone prolonged tricky periods, so you are doing incredibly well to push through this. I know we have no choice, but you really deserve a pat on the back and your LO's are so very lucky to have been blessed with you as their Mammy.
x.
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thanks ladies xx
i don't know anything about mspi but would formula help at all??
Unfortunately she won't take the milk/soy free formula (it's vile so I don't blame her :P), so although I *could* wean her, I am concerned about her calcium intake if I do :-\. She's pretty picky ::)
I gave her an increased dose of ranitidine this morning and I'm not sure if it was coincidence but she slept for 1.5 hours and woke up chatting rather than crying which is the first time for weeks ???. Still cried for 45 minutes at bedtime though which doesn't make sense. She is so spirited/strong willed and that is obviously adding to whatever the root cause is. We'll see how tomorrow goes :-\.
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Claire, I have no idea, but have you investigated any holistic sleep aids
Hi Claire, We can get this in Canada
http://boiron.ca/en/products/children/quietude/
I've used it as it came as a free sample with holistic teeting tabs...If you can't find anything similar in the UK and want to try, I'll send you some through the post...
Seemed to help tbh...
Hugs...
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I am concerned about her calcium intake if I do
DD is allergic to milk and she drinks Almond milk now. High in calcium so I don't worry. I also make sure that she eats foods high in calcium -quinoa, salmon, broccoli, etc.
What time is bedtime right now?
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I have been trying to have her asleep for 5.30 but she will often scream for an hour so they end up being 6.30pm. I have tried settling her even earlier but she still screams forever ::).
She is clearly shattered - though everyone keeps telling me that maybe she just needs less sleep ::)
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Can you do a week of 5 pm bedtime to give her even more time in bed and to compensate for how long it's taking her to fall asleep?
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that's great she did a 1.5 nap :)
I would have thought that would have helped with BT though???
H has almond milk and it is fortified with calcium. other good food to give if she will have it is almond butter rather than peanut, tinned salmon, green veg (we don't get much of that in!)
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any progress Claire?
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So I thought I'd update as e has sttn the last 3 nights :D. Admittedly still waking before 6 but that at least feels within the realms of normal, even if not ideal ::)! She is still napping for about 40 minutes ???, but today pulled a 2 hour one out of the bag :). She is also still sobbing at bedtime and I do wonder when she will start going down peacefully as it so heart breaking :'(, particularly when she headbangs :-\.
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Claire, I haven't posted but have been reading along quietly hoping for some good news ... :D so happy for you and E - long may it continue and make sure while she STTN you do too :-*
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So great to hear!
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Claire that's AWESOME!!!! SO happy for you!!
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Yay Claire!!! I'm sooooo happy to read this! Long may it continue.... ;D
(((Hugs))) for the sobbing and head banging. :( :-*
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that's great! hopefully with all that good sleep in her she'll start going down better too :)
xxx
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great :)
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Yaaay! Go Ev! (((hugs))) for the crying, I know that is so hard to listen to.
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And again last night :). Woke at 5.55am - but we are just getting her up at that time now rather than trying to resettle as she has been having 11.5 hours sleep so not technically an EW...can work on getting a later wake up later on!
The strange thing is that she goes down for her naps fine - just settles herself easily - so is it likely that this at BT is just OT? Strangely even if she is OT for her nap she just conks out and short naps, but no crying like at BT ???. I just hate it as I feel so bad for her that she is crying for us/for cuddles - but whenever we give cuddles/go in and talk to her she just escalates and it takes even longer and ends up being more distressing for her :-\. I either sit in her room or just outside the door and occasionally say her 'sleepy' phrase (or, more accurately her 'wind her up' phrase, which is what it feels like sometimes as it seems to make her worse ::)). The more I leave her to it the quicker she settles - but that feels more like CIO - so I end up speaking to her so that she constantly knows I am there, but then she goes crazy again ???. Any thoughts on how I can do it differently, please?
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And again last night .
Awesome Claire, so glad there has been some improvement.. Trying to resettling at 11.5 hours would be a waste of time for most of us I think Hun.
The strange thing is that she goes down for her naps fine - just settles herself easily - so is it likely that this at BT is just OT?
I hear this a lot Claire, and I think it probably is OT for most, but I guess the fact that they're at the end of the day and all the OS that brings as well (often) could be relevant. Also it seems to me that they're is often an anticipatory problem at BT, as in the LO anticipates the frustration/tiredness they often feel and so the cycle goes on, does that make sense
I just hate it as I feel so bad for her that she is crying for us/for cuddles - but whenever we give cuddles/go in and talk to her she just escalates and it takes even longer and ends up being more distressing for her . I either sit in her room or just outside the door and occasionally say her 'sleepy' phrase (or, more accurately her 'wind her up' phrase, which is what it feels like sometimes as it seems to make her worse ). The more I leave her to it the quicker she settles - but that feels more like CIO - so I end up speaking to her so that she constantly knows I am there, but then she goes crazy again . Any thoughts on how I can do it differently, please?
This sounds to me like she has trouble settling so she is asking for help, but she is a 'Spirited' LO therefore she actually ultimately finds it easier to settle without stimulation. I'm reading between the lines here Hun, and I know you know her well so please correct me if I'm wrong. IIWM I would be in the room at the moment, away from her but where she can still see you if she chooses. But, I would probably go with the theory that because intervention makes her more upset, 'knowing' that your there, is the 'happy medium' and the best way forward. I would maybe 'Sssh' occasionally if my heart couldn't take the silence. It's the same as doing any sleep training really, your LO is screaming at you, but you 'know' that what you're doing is for the best. Don't feel guilty Hun. You have been going through this forever and I am pretty sure that you now know in your gut what to do to help her most.
Out of interest has she ever responded to white noise or music well ??? I'm wondering if it may help her calm down :-\.
I hope this helps in some way.
(Hugs)
Vicki.x.
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I was thinking if you could maybe just be singing slightly by her door, so it's not a sound that comes and goes like when you say her sleepy phrase, but just a constant but not very loud song?
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I just hate it as I feel so bad for her that she is crying for us/for cuddles - but whenever we give cuddles/go in and talk to her she just escalates and it takes even longer and ends up being more distressing for her .
we have this problem too.....I have not figured something out yet either but I do get stressed that it feels to me like CC even though I know it isn't.
Funnily enough we get crying at naptime but not at BT even though we know she is OT probably for both but def at BT!
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Thanks all :-*
kayra, she of partial to a bit of singing :) and it is often how I settle her actually. You're right that it is less stop-start than talking and I'd not thought of that. Vicki, What you said was really helpful. she does have white noise but I think I will try making her up a cd of me singing (treat :P).
I settled her tonight with no real crying-put her in her bed, light off, and stroked her hair while I talked to her about what she had done today. Then I sat and sang for a few minutes and left the room. She was calm nearly the whole time and it has made me realise it is the transition between day and sleep time that she finds hard and it is specifically that that I need to help her with.
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that's wonderful Claire! well done :)
Anna, love the new avatar, Audrey is just darling!
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Hi Claire, how was last night ???
Yes Anna I agree, what a angel face :)
x.
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She had a couple of nws early on in the evening (OT) and was up at 5 - so a 10 hour night :-\. DH tried to settle her for almost an hour but got her up at 6. But now it feels more like we're 'tweaking' things, rather than the whole sleep thing just being a total nightmare!! so even though it's not great it feels more bearable!
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so even though it's not great it feels more bearable!
This ^ only goes to show how bad things were before Honey, bless your heart, and lots of (Hugs)
x.
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I just hate it as I feel so bad for her that she is crying for us/for cuddles - but whenever we give cuddles/go in and talk to her she just escalates and it takes even longer and ends up being more distressing for her . I either sit in her room or just outside the door and occasionally say her 'sleepy' phrase (or, more accurately her 'wind her up' phrase, which is what it feels like sometimes as it seems to make her worse ). The more I leave her to it the quicker she settles - but that feels more like CIO - so I end up speaking to her so that she constantly knows I am there, but then she goes crazy again . Any thoughts on how I can do it differently, please?
Honestly, if she's settling better without you, then I would just stay out if it happens again. Listen to what she's telling you and go with your gut. If everytime you say anything to her, it winds her up, then why say anything?
That's not CIO, that's giving your child what she needs-the space to fall asleep. :)
Yes, she wants cuddles, but she also really needs sleep and it's in her best interest to sleep, not get more cuddles and therefore stay up longer, you know? Think about it later when she is crying for a cookie and wants it for breakfast- you wouldn't give it to her because it's not healthy for her, regardless of how much she cried for it. At this point, I see it the same way in this scenario- it's not healthy for her to be overtired.
She's not a newborn and it's not like you haven't tended to her needs. You have been there for her the whole time. You've been awesome and patient and so dedicated!! If the crying was escalating, then yes I would go back in, but if you say she settles faster without you, then I would give her that opportunity.
((hugs))
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She settled tonight with NO crying - the first time I remember in her little life!!!!!!!!!!
I have ended up doing a backwards step in that for the past two nights I have done stories and then fed her in the dark. She is still wide awake when she finished so it's hopefully not going to create a prop again :-\. But I just talked to her quietly about her day again, stroked her hair, and sang a song and walked out ;D. Honestly, it is such a huge relief.
Thanks for the hand holding :). she took a short nap again today, but things feel so much better overall. I might start a new thread over the next couple of days to get some help with tweaking her routine, as this thread is feeling a bit of a hefty one after all this time :P!!
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Lovely, lovely update. Here's to peaceful bedtimes for E.
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wohoo!! :)
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Yeah!!! :D :D :D
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Honestly, if she's settling better without you, then I would just stay out if it happens again. Listen to what she's telling you and go with your gut. If everytime you say anything to her, it winds her up, then why say anything?
That's not CIO, that's giving your child what she needs-the space to fall asleep.
Yes, she wants cuddles, but she also really needs sleep and it's in her best interest to sleep, not get more cuddles and therefore stay up longer, you know? Think about it later when she is crying for a cookie and wants it for breakfast- you wouldn't give it to her because it's not healthy for her, regardless of how much she cried for it. At this point, I see it the same way in this scenario- it's not healthy for her to be overtired.
She's not a newborn and it's not like you haven't tended to her needs. You have been there for her the whole time. You've been awesome and patient and so dedicated!! If the crying was escalating, then yes I would go back in, but if you say she settles faster without you, then I would give her that opportunity.
((hugs))
WOW! I wish I could have said it like this ^, what a wonderful way with words you have Smurette, I absolutely agree.
She settled tonight with NO crying - the first time I remember in her little life!!!!!!!!!!
Oh Claire, I can imagine how that made you feel, that's awesome, it's kinda like winning the lottery isn't it, but without the holiday and new mansion ;)
x.
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The more I leave her to it the quicker she settles - but that feels more like CIO
Honestly, if she's settling better without you, then I would just stay out if it happens again. Listen to what she's telling you and go with your gut. If everytime you say anything to her, it winds her up, then why say anything?
That's not CIO, that's giving your child what she needs-the space to fall asleep. :)
Yes, she wants cuddles, but she also really needs sleep and it's in her best interest to sleep, not get more cuddles and therefore stay up longer, you know? Think about it later when she is crying for a cookie and wants it for breakfast- you wouldn't give it to her because it's not healthy for her, regardless of how much she cried for it. At this point, I see it the same way in this scenario- it's not healthy for her to be overtired.
She's not a newborn and it's not like you haven't tended to her needs. You have been there for her the whole time. You've been awesome and patient and so dedicated!! If the crying was escalating, then yes I would go back in, but if you say she settles faster without you, then I would give her that opportunity.
((hugs))
Yep, this is Audrey exactly. Hate leaving her but can't bear to make her more upset by responding. And when she really DOES need us, we know - something in her cry changes. Last night she had a nightmare I think, the crying just sounded different so I ran in, gave cuddles, and she was back to sleep within a couple of minutes.
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Awesome, Claire! So happy to read another great update from you! ;D
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Things here are an absolute nightmare again :'( :'(. Really do not know what to do this has been going on for so long it just feels out of any realm of 'normal'. We've been up for almost two hours again tonight, she is screaming at bedtime, screaming in the night, taking shirt naps and waking at 4.50am-5am. I am shaking i am so angry with her. Why is she doing this?? I am planning on taking her to the doctos this week to ask about a sleep clinic appointment as we are so thoroughly at our wits end.
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:'( Sorry to read your update, Claire.
I have little to offer other than hugs, but you can have as many hugs and sleepy vibes as you need xx
I take it there was nothing different when she slept better than now?
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Oh Claire, I'm so sorry. Saying a quick prayer for you all before I turn out my light. Lots and lots of (((hugs))), you've been so amazingly patient through all of this. I can't imagine how frustrating and defeating it feels. :'( :'( :-* :-*
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Def go back to the Dr, just does not seem normal like you say.You need some support and someone to look into everything medically IMO. Hugs Claire xx
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so sorry Claire :'( hugs and prayers coming your way!!
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(((((many hugs))))) Claire please keep us updated on what the Dr says.
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Were going to up her reflux dose slightly (she has room for an increase as she's gained weight), and I'm going to cut hidden dairy again as she's mspi but I had been a bit more relaxed recently with my diet (still bf her).
How are you doing with this? Olly had an extremely restricted diet and was very fussy but he was on oat milk by 14 months. I would get her reflux dose checked by the doc and cut every bit if milk and soy out of both diets. Could you get a referral to a dietician to go over her diet? Ours also prescribed calcium supplements if you are worried about that. Xxx
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have you got an appt claire?
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Hugs Claire. I'm so sorry things are so tough again. Especially when you get a few good nights. I shatters your confidence :-*
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You lot are lovely, thank you.
she settled fine tonight, I just don't get it ???! She is so ridiculously strong willed and vocal during the day that I really do wonder if this just manifests as these screaming bt's/nw's, where perhaps other children would just go back to sleep once they realised they weren't going to get what they want :-\.
I will try the doctors next week and see if we can get a referral to a sleep clinic. The doctors can't see anything wrong with her physically, and the paed g.i. just always brushes me off when I ask whether something else could be causing her nw's.
Agh, she's woken screaming now
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the paed g.i. just always brushes me off when I ask whether something else could be causing her nw's.
Grrr... that's pretty annoying! >:( Is he not even willing to look into anything else?
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I will try the doctors next week and see if we can get a referral to a sleep clinic. The doctors can't see anything wrong with her physically, and the paed g.i. just always brushes me off when I ask whether something else could be causing her nw's.
Let me know if you need any help or advice ;)
((((((hugs))))) I've been following but fairly silently. Does she sleep better with calpol? Sorry if that's been tried. We're trying that with O atm.
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Just more (HUGS) Claire, I hope someone the sleep clinic can give the help and support you need.
x.
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Did you have any joy at the Dr hun?
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Thanks for asking. I haven't been yet and not sure if I'll get there next week either as my Mum would normally have Ben for me but she's poorly. To just spice things up a bit, the past few days she's been waking between 4.30-4.45am and not going back to sleep :o ::). But she will scream the house down until I bring her out of her room (for, like an hour!) and then she just asks for Mr Tumble and is giggling :o ???. And that's after she's woken B too....AGH!!
I actually managed to get two naps into her today but she ended up asleep late at bt so who knows what tonight shall bring....best head to bed myself :)
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what happened?
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Had several short NWs, woke at 4am so I just bf her and managed to get her back to sleep until 6. She's got a cough which is effecting her sleep, and teething molars and canines, so we're just doing what we can at the moment.
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know that one....survival I think it's called!
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Ugh more (Hugs) Hun. Going through a big time screaming at BT phase right now, the stress is incredible, and I know you are far down the road. How do you think it would work out if you slept in her room with her temporarily ??? Is it possible ??? and do you think your presence would help her resettle at 4.30 am WU, so you all can get more sleep as a family. I am going down that 'whatever works' route with you :'(
x.
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Oh Vickie, I just read your new thread - poor little guy, and poor Mummy having to go through this with him :'(.
I dunno - my presence just doesn't actually seem to help her :-\. I mean I have climbed in her cot with her several times and her screaming just stays at exactly the same pitch, she carries on banging her head etc - I would have thought if she had wanted me then she would have at least sounded a bit relieved ::) ;)! TBH at this point we're just riding it out, and then at some point soon I will hopefully have a burst of enthusiasm to try and sort it out :).
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Oh Vickie, I just read your new thread - poor little guy, and poor Mummy having to go through this with him .
Thanks Sweetie, you have no idea how hard it is (sarcasm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;) ;) ;))
I dunno - my presence just doesn't actually seem to help her .
I'm sorry, I did know this from before, but I forgot. She really has got you by the doo da's every which way hasn't she! I think she is headed for big things with a will that strong. And you know Margaret Thatcher survived on 4 hours sleep every night! :o
(Hugs) always.x.
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So things are still the same :'( :'( :'(
Dh has been in there with her again for over an hour and she's still screaming (since 4.40am). How long does it take to wean a nf as we're doing it at the moment (again :-\).
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Omg Claire, your avatar is gorgeous! - Sorry OT, but I'm sure you will forgive me :-*
Hugs, at this age maybe 3 days of rubbish? Are you doing WI/WO? Xx
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Thank you :-*
Ok, so we're on day three and she's not getting the hint :-\. This is when I always start questioning whether its reflux :(. Dh is just sitting in there as she goes even more wild with wiwo. Do you reckon that's ok?
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what did the Dr say about her meds dose?
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I didn't ever take her back :-[. I *know* my go won't do anything, and the hospital never take it seriously so it is pointless :(. The just assume it is behavioural :-\
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I would go back and see a different Dr. I recently went about M when we had horrendous NWings and I know my normal Dr would have brushed it off but this one was great, really listened and made a plan with me. If you think pain and it does sound like more than just a routine issue to me then try a different Dr and see if you get a better response.
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hugs Claire! I think trying a different dr is a good idea, so so many hugs!
So glad you're DH is so helpful and supportive, my DH is helpful in general but with something like this I think he'd be totally done and leaving it all to me..
and yes gorgeous pic! :)
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Oh honey I didn't realise she was fluxy ATM. Teeth are nuts at this age. Do you think they are causing pain or the reflux to flare? X
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(((Hugs))), Claire. I think it's worth getting a second opinion too. You know her best, hon, and if you're questioning it, then trust yourself. I tried to do away with that early morning feed when G was 12mo and cutting his molars. It took me 3 days of 1-2hr settling before I realized it was no use. The molars weren't causing him to wake, but I do think they were causing enough discomfort for him not to be able to settle. I knew if I was questioning it, I couldn't carry through. And, I'm guessing reflux causes more pain than teeth. :( FWIW, I think it's totally fine for your DH to sit with her rather than do WIWO.
And, I absolutely love the avatar as well! ;D
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Thanks ladies. Took her to the GP today (at the walk in clinic so not my normal doctors) and he checked her over and said that her throat was red and he thinks it sounds like reflux pain that is bothering her in the night. She has been up for 2+ hours every night this week (starts of just quietly complaining then it escalates to full on screaming) - so 5 days of sleep training to get rid of the nf and and it wasn't getting us anywhere at all. Under normal, pain free, circumstances I would have seen some change by this time wouldn't I ???.
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Under normal, pain free, circumstances I would have seen some change by this time wouldn't I ???.
I think so, Claire. (((Hugs))) honey, I'm glad you took her in, and glad you saw a supportive doctor. Hoping you can make some progress soon! :-* :-*
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I agree...so glad you managed to get 'some' answers. Poor baby and poor you guys :(
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I'd think so too. Hugs, so glad the new Dr recognised she's in pain, really hope the adjusted meds work quickly for her.
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:-* Hun, posted on your CRC thread x