Total bedtime refusal no matter what I try - 2-1 transition, please help!

[sherry lynn]

It's hard to say because of the lovey situation, but when Lyle transitioned out of the crib I tried the night light and I thought it was going ok, but I just kept getting NW, when I took it away things got a lot better. I've seen other people have a similar situation, so I think it is possible. Not sure if you want to try without though because of the lovey What do you think?

Glad to hear you had a better night and a good nap.

I see you are on now, so curious to see how last night went for you. It's very very busy on the EASY board right now. Thanks so much for the PM, I promise to send one back when things settle down.

[shresmummy]

Well, last night went quite well too. She had a brief wake around 10:30 I just gave her the lovely in the cot and patted her a couple of times then she settled on her own. Then woke again around 11:15 but this time I had to carry her.

Today was not a good nap day though

Wake - 6:15 again
nap - 11:40 - 1:15, woke, looked like she would resettle but then didn't.
bedtime - 6:30.

I tried turning off the nightlight tonight. Let' see if that makes a difference. 

[shresmummy]

I had to turn the nightlight back on after her first NW. She woke up around 9:35, excatly 3 hrs after she fell asleep. She tends to do this often. Is this an important sleep transition point or something? Anyway she had lost her lovey and kept calling out for bunny.

I settled her in the cot though. I"m trying to avoid picking her up as much as possible and see if she'll just settle in the cot on her own with me standing there. I know she can do it.

Anyway she woke up again around 10:05 asking for bunny again. That's when I turned the light back on.

[sherry lynn]

I think that's a good idea that you are trying not to pick her up.

I would have turned the light back on too.

Maybe you should start a new post with a new title about the 2-1. Because I'm truly stumped Maybe a new pair of eyes will see something I'm not.

[shresmummy]

Today was a better day. We had, for the first time in ages, a 2hr uninterrupted nap! yay!

Although last night, actually early this morning was not pleasant! DD went to bed around 6:35 last night, had those 2 NWs I mentioned in the pp, then slept woke again around 1:45 then slept well but was up and singing at 5:15 !! OMG!

I didn't want to start a whole trend of EW, which technically aren't EWs because she'd had nearly 11 hr sleep right?

Anyway, I AP'd a very resistant little girl back to sleep. We both then slept till 7:40. Much better time to start the day

Nap was from 12:40 - 2:40
Bedtime - tried around 7:40, she fell asleep before 8, but then woke up again in 20 mins crying. Weird??! Then So far has gone back to sleep.

Sherry do you think I should start another thread about the NWs? or the wake up after 3hr of going to bed thing? I wasn't sure which one you meant

Hoping for a better night xxx

[sherry lynn]

I was actually talking about the napping   But, then she went and took a good nap. They are so unpredictable.

My guess is that she may actually be dropping her sleep needs a little bit? I think (for her) I would have counted that as an EW because it actually wasn't quite 11 hours, and she almost always sleeps 11 hours, right? I'm so glad she went back to sleep for you.

You know, last night Lyle woke up 3 hours after bedtime. But, I didn't have to go in, so there might be something about that mark. Often he does stir around 2 hours after going to bed, but he doesn't usually cry out at this time. Last night I think he was a tad OT.

You know, I just had a thought. What if you started putting her on a set routine. I think she might really benefit from that. I don't think so does well with wake up time and bedtime being different each day. I think that would really help you find the right A time for her, because the length of night is different often, and that effects how tired they are, etc.

What do you think? That is the only thing we haven't really tried, and I've read on here that sooooo many LO do really well with that.

[JaspersMum]

Been thinking of doing that too - a set time routine.  Might help.

[shresmummy]

We did kind of have that going about a couple of weeks ago when she was napping really well and also had good nights. But then everything changed, not really sure why, and I really don't know how to get back on track.

We had sort of:

Wake - 7ish
nap - 12ish - 2:20 max
bedtime - between 7 - 7:15 and she would wake up around 7

I would love so so love to have a set routine similar to the above one. But It varies so much because of her wake up time. I never usually allow her to sleep past 7. But if she wakes early then what would we do with a set routine system? If she wake up at say 6:30 or even 6:15 how would we get her to nap only at 12?

I know with a routine hopefully her night sleep will remain consistent. But she has such an independent mind!!
and I know for a fact that each night will probably still vary
Worth a try?

What kind of routine would you suggest?

I have been finding lately that from day to day she varies her morning A time. I think some of the nap problems I've been having lately are because I've been putting her down according to the 5hr A time that I've been following when she might infact need 5.5 or even closer to 6, just depending on her mood that morning.

Sherry that's interesting that Lyle cried out at that 3hr mark. DD also does the 2hr mark sometimes.

I wonder when all these cry outs and sleep cycle transition issues will resolve themselves. Perhaps when they become teenagers!!??

[sherry lynn]

The idea is that yes, you do the same nap time, regardless of wake up. (this is why Lyle can't handle a set nap time

You just make the last bit of A time low key, etc.

Thanks to Kirry - I sort of use more of a nap window, which maybe your LO could use too. The idea is that on a morning if you have a particular EW you still do not put down more than 1/2 hour early. So maybe your sleep window would be 12-12:30. Since you are thinking she might need 5.5 hours A time on some days. That would allow for some days to put her down later.
So on an EW day, she would still not go down before 12. And, you could apply the same idea at bedtime.

I know what you mean about them having an independent mind about all this. Lyle's wake ups seriously vary by like 2 hours. 5:15 this morning   That one was a shocker. But, what do you do....

But, I think, maybe don't let her sleep past 7. Even if she is up a couple of times in the night. I think, only allow her to sleep past 7 if she has a really long NW and falls back asleep close to 6 or so. Then only allow an extra 1/2 hour. What do you think?
 

[shresmummy]

Yes I think that would work well with my Lo's temperament. The nap window sounds like a good plan. And I usually try not to let her sleep past 7:30 like you suggested also

Having said that last night was the first good night in a looooong time!

wake - 6:30ish
nap - 12:15 - 2 (started falling asleep in the car on way back from lunch) continued sleeping when I brought her in to her cot and woke up happy

Bedtime - tried around 7, but kept fidgeting around and finally fell truly asleep at 7:20 or so.

And it gets better. She didn't do her usual 3hr wake up crying. She cried out around 11 or so but I didn't have to do anything. Then she had a brief wake around 2 Am asking for water. But fell back asleep immediately when I gave it to her. Then she woke up at 6:30

Can you see any obvious pattern or change in yesterday's routine, compared to some of the other days, that might have led to a good day/night yesterday?

What are the chances I follow the same routine today and get another good result!! haha yeah right

[JaspersMum]

I like the idea of a sleep window too.  I think I'm going to have to employ that strategy too.  We had another horrible bedtime last night and I think DS was just not tired.  I wonder, if at this age, they handle OT better than they used to?  Because the night before he only got 10 hours sleep, so I put him down for his nap at 4.5 hours A time, he slept 2 hours 15 minutes, and then I tried bedtime 5 hours after that, but he protested and did not sleep til 8pm! 

I have decided to stick with a 7.30pm bedtime from now on, unless he's super tired but I won't go earlier than 7pm.  I will also set a nap time window of 11.30-12 as his wake up is between 6.30 - 7.

Its almost like he displays his OT in the morning - is really grumpy and could go to bed after 3 hours A time.  Come the evening, and after his nap, he's over it and back to normal.

I feel for you ladies . . . . we are crying out for some consistency.

[sherry lynn]

Rachel - that is exactly how my LO is too. Grumpy in the morning more than the afternoon. I think they do start handling OT a lot better.

Priya - the only thing  I see is that it is LESS day time sleep, with a longer morning A time then 5, and then the 5 hours A time.

but, who really knows

[shresmummy]

Well by chance the same thing sort of happened yesterday too due to childcare.

Bedtime night before - 7:30ish
Wake on Monday - 6:30
Nap - 12:20ish - 2:20
bedtime - between 7:20-7:35
Nws - brief at 8:30 (OT??) but it was just a few seconds I had to hand her bunny
then again 1:20ish took about 15 minutes to resettle.

Woke Today morning at 6:50ish

Rather good night. The only thing I can see is she had a nearly 6hr A time in the morning. Is it worth keeping that the same?

[sherry lynn]

Hmmmm.... If you keep that the same, then maybe try decreasing the last A time by about 15 min.

One way to keep track of things (which, I only recently found out about) is keeping track of A time during the day also.
So day before yesterday's total A time was

5h45m + 5h +(20m to sl15eep) = 11h5m
yesterdays  6h +5h +(15m to sleep) =  11h15m - with an OT waking.

So I would just shorten the last A time a tad in the PM when you lengthen the AM.

Personally, if it were me and I could control it (I say that because you couldn't today) 
I would try out 5h45m for a few more days at home and see how it goes. Then possibly move to 6 hours?

This is great news though!!!! I think you have figured it out!!!!

[shresmummy]

Hmm, I hadn't really thought of shortening that last A time because of the extended first A time.

Today went OK as well.

Wake - ~6:50? I couldn't say for sure but just before 7
Nap - 12:20 - 2:20
Bedtime - tried around 7:15 but only fell asleep around 7:40

With bedtime I'm unable to tell whether the delay that's been happening the past few days is because she's just a slight bit UT or whether it's because I"m doing some sleep training as well.

I'm trying to use GW and getting her less dependent on me falling asleep. It's been working OK so far because she does know how to sleep independently but just needed a bit of reminding

The problem I think I"m going to run into I think is that becuase her morning A time is so long, the nap is slightly later in the day and if she has a good 2hr nap,  the day becomes longer than a 12hr day. Tonight for instance she only yawned once around 6:45PM and then showed no real tired signs like before her nap. But I put her down at 7:20 anyway. But she did fidget around for a while and fell asleep only close to 7:40. With this situation, I'm worried about being UT initially and then getting OT because DD does tend to do that sometimes.

Today in the morning though I think the nap window idea worked better becuase I could tell she couldn't really make it to 6hr so I put her down around 12:20. But if she could make it then wouldn't 1PM be too late a start for the nap? Perhaps if she wakes up at 6:30 then make it closer to the 6hr end, but if she wakes up closer to 7Am perhaps around 5.5hr A time?

What's the longest the day should be? If she starts the nap later after having 6hr A time, is it ok to cut the nap slightly shorter to maintain a 12hr day or just extend the day out? I"m a bit worried about cutting the nap, given that it's such a long A time before the nap.