Support thread for raising touchy babies - part 2

[Canadian_Mom]

Hi Nikki,
We go through what you are describing off/on with our now three year old.  Sometimes it is obvious what the cause is (OT, UT, changes in our lives etc), and sometimes I have no clue!!  If I don't know the cause we stick to our routine as much as possible, but I give him as much extra attention/cuddling that I can.  As well, as his language skills started to increase I started to explain things as much as I could.  For example, when you leave the room tell her where you are going and that you will be back as well trying saying something like remember last time that I went to the kitchen to get something mommy came right back.  We always come out the other side of these "stages" sometimes they last long (with his 2 year molars it felt long...) and sometimes it is short, maybe only a few days!!
HTH!!

[henrysmomma]

I am not trying to butt in but I do have a question; what does bedtime look like for your touchies?  Ours requires at least two pu/pd before falling asleep and it generally takes an hour to two to actually get him down for the night.  I would love to hear how your bt routines go!  I am sure we are becoming a prop but we do what we have to to get him down.  He has only gone done twice on his own/right away without any pu/pd.  He almost always wakes after the first 45 and requires his prop aka paci to get back to sleep.  We still swaddle using three yards of fabric and the little Houdini always wriggles his way out, regardless of which swaddle technique we use. Thank you!

[Ima shel Alon]

henrysmomma, I think the best for you would be to start a new thread on the EASY board, it sounds to me more of a routine thing than *just* his touchiness.

[henrysmomma]

Thanks so much!  I do have one question, however.  As we are approaching the holidays, we are getting a little concerned at having lots of company including my in-laws that live 14 hours away and haven't seen Henry since July.  They get 'up in his grill' and overdo it just to cram as many smiles as they can in the three days that they are here and it has ended in disaster each time that they have been here.  Now that we know that the colic is overwith and we are finally discovering Henry's touchy personality (with tons of smiles)-how do we go about explaining this to my in-laws who are definitely not going to understand.  They have an over-inflated idea of what faith is and any problems in our life is because we don't have enough faith, etc, etc.  (this is a whole 'nother topic that we could chew over for days)...I just don't know how to ease him into them being here and explaining to them why I cannot just toss him into their arms....

Not to criticize but we cannot possibly do anything right and him being a 'momma's boy' will most definitely be misconstrewed as a lack of discipline etc...I can hear it already....any suggestions??  We really do want Henry to get to know his grandparents and I hate to be the one to break their bubble that we will not be dropping him off for our week long Mexico anniversary trip next year.  Not gunna happen. I appreciate it.  Thank you!

[ZacsMumme]

Hugs HM. My IL are like this. OS central! FWIW now Z is older they are fine (phew)
I've learnt with my IL who 'mean well' but didn't get Z that I have to just offer information so they learn without me 'telling them'
For example I would say 'Z is very sensitive and needs his sleep, without it he gets tired and doesn't cope well so there is no use trying to skip is nap for a day out as no one has fun' or 'its just who he is, when he's upset he tells us! But when he's happy, he is delightful' or re OS 'Z seems to get overwhelmed easily, so if I feel he is getting OS please don't be offended if I remove him for a wee break'
WRT cuddles my MI
L would tick her face almost in my boob when I was feeding to get a look in  eventually I just left the room to feed later on when we realise Z didn't like new company's arms I just put it out there, come in have a seat, I would love you to have a wee cuddle soon but Z is sensitive so let's just catch up for a bit first and then see how he goes' maybe sit next to MIL? Or if you really want him away, pop him in a wrap on you

Ugh, IL are tough, just try to be relaxed even if you feel frustrated as your LO will sense it. Will DH/D
 Maybe talk to his folks before they visit?

[Ima shel Alon]

IL are tough

and tougher when you have a touchy
My IL are the same and it was also very difficult to say something them because they raised their kids so different and sometimes I think they think they are like the perfect parents or something. And we also lived far away so whenever they came or we visited it was for a few days and all they wanted is to play and look at him while all he wanted was to sleep (and couldn't).
There were two things that helped me.
Till this day whenever someone comes for a visit, after a minute or two I tell them "it takes Alon time to be ok around people". And that's it. I found that keeps me calm with whatever behavior is coming because I warned them.
The other thing is that I had to work on myself a lot to just make peace with how he is when others are there. I say to myself that he will be OT, OS, he will have a meltdown and yes, it's THEIR fault, but I am going to be ok with it because I know him, I know how to calm him down and after a few days it will go back to be just the way *I* want it to be.
It doesn't I always manage.
You can always excuse yourself and take him for a feeding or a very long nappy change, just to have a few minutes that you can refocus yourself.
I also found it helpful not to be around so much. Of course I still needed to be around but when they went with DH for a walk I didn't join because I knew I will just get upset and I got some Y time for myself. If I didn't see how they stimulated him it was easier for me when they came back, because I rested and because I didn't know how bad it was

[mimi80]

Hi! I'm a long-time follower, first-time poster. Thanks to a dear friend who introduced me to this forum, DS has been on an EASY routine since he was 3 weeks old! DS is 8.5 months old and touchy. From about 3 months to 8 months, he was STTN with a very consistent EASY routine during the day. As soon as we hit the 8 month mark, his sleep went completely wonky. I'm not sure if I should credit this change to the "8 month sleep regression" I've read about, or the fact that my father-in-law came to stay with us for a bit (he lives in Vietnam) and created a major change in his routine. I'm absolutely attributing developmental leaps, teething, and SA. In order to help deal with this, DH and I decided to allow DS to sleep with us, as a temporary fix to the problem. It also ensured that everyone got some sleep! It's been 2 weeks, and this has to stop. Neither one of us ever intended on letting DS sleep with us at night, but we were desperate. He always starts off in his crib, and then when he wakes up crying for no apparent reason, we bring him into the bed with us. 

So I guess I have 2 issues here: breaking the habit of co-sleeping, and getting DS back on track. Here's an example of his current EASY routine:

A time of 3 hours
Two naps of 1.5 hours
Total daytime sleep: 3 hours
Total nighttime sleep: 9 hours

5am bottle/then back to sleep
8am wake up
9am bottle
11am nap
12:30 wake up
1pm bottle
2:30 solids
3:30 nap
5:00 wake up/bottle
7:30 solids
9:30 bath
9:45 bedtime bottle

I'm aware that this is a very late bedtime. DH and I struggle with this. DH feels that if DS went to bed at 7pm, he would hardly ever see him. We want to do what is best for him, just not sure if an earlier bedtime is the only thing he needs. I'm worried that he's not getting enough sleep at night. He used to sleep 10-11 hours straight until he turned 8 months. What gives?

Thank you so much, in advance. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

[Ima shel Alon]

Hello, mimi. Could you please copy and paste your post to a new topic on the EASY board so we can help you with your routine?

[tori1083]

I need support.  We are NOT SLEEPING  Our baby often has difficult going to bed at night and wake very often- at the end of several sleep cycles per night.

The terminology and what it entails to parent a "touchy" baby is completely new to me.  All I know is this: At 6 months old, my 2nd child still MUST be swaddled with her arms in and have white noise BLARING to sleep (when she actually does sleep). Even though we have been trying since she was born to establish some kind of schedule (even an approximation would have been nice), we have failed utterly.  She is completely different from my first, who, without our knowledge of BW, easily fell into a routine/schedule.  Our first was predictable and "angel" -like and we followed an EASY routine from the very beginning.  She was and still is a terrific and predictable sleeper.  With our second daughter, much of the time, I have no idea how what she needs or wants. 

For the past 11 days, we have been working diligently to begin a BW schedule/routine for our 6 month old.  I am trying to follow Tracy's prescription for beginning with an older baby to the Tee.  I feel like we have a really good understanding of shh/pat and pu/pd, a calming before-bed routine, and we are working hard to establish a bedtime and two long naps during the day (at the same times each day).  Naps were ok yesterday, 1.5 hrs, 1 hr, then catnap from 6:45-7:30 (it was dark and we were in the car) (we usually get closer to 1.5-2hr naps, they were slightly short that day).  She ate at 7:40 and 9pm and then never went to sleep until after 1am.  We were sort of losing our minds by that point, getting up and walking to the other side of the house every 20 minutes, so we broke down and put her in bed with us-- because, our sleep deprived minds were thinking that if she is going to be up every 30 minutes (at least), then at least it would be easier to deal with her.  Even after putting her in in bed with us, she still had great difficulty settling down.  We gave her tylenol, wondering if it is teeth, and after 20 min, she fell asleep.  She still woke 2 more times in the night and needed settling.

I totally see that putting her in bed with us may not be a great answer, but we were so tired after many nights in a row of being up and awake so much.  Also, I just have this feeling something isn't right because I don't understand how a baby could 1) be awake that much, and 2) constantly wake up out of a sleep.  She has a history of reflux and I have taken her to a specialist and a chiro (twice).  I am having a really hard time figuring out what is going on: Like, is it reflux, upset tummy, teeth, or just wanting to be held.  Are touchy babies just like this? I honestly don't know.

Today- naps were great: two at almost 2 hrs each (no catnap).  But, it has taken me over 3 hrs to get her settled.  I have fed her twice and given her gripe water (not sure if it will work or not) in that time.  Her final position (after trying both sides and tummy) is on her back after I just patted and rubbed her tummy to sleep.  I fully expect her to wake up in a short time from now- likely at the end of a 30-45 min sleep cycle.

We have another chiropracter apt. and well-check visit this coming week and I will ask questions.  However, as before, I am not very hopeful that our doctors will have answers or good suggestions for us.


Also, I consume a moderate amt of soy (I am a vegetarian)- so I wonder if that is having any effect.  I have already done a dairy elimination (for 2+ weeks) and that has not helped.  She doesn't seem like she is having tummy pain - but we are just guessing at this point.  And, I do often drink a cup of 1/2 caff coffee in the evening (b/c of not sleeping and keeping up with two kids all day).  I haven't noticed a direct correlation to any issues (and she naps fine after I consume it in the morning), but I wonder if that is a problem at night for her?

I feel sad that I do not know my baby better than this.  I feel like, if we could only figure out the problem, we could take steps to fix it.

Then again, my husband keeps asking- maybe its nothing and she has just been overly-coddled and needs to cry?  I don't want to go there, b/c she doesn't really settle herself and would just end up screaming in hysterics.  Plus, I wouldn't want to leave her alone until I am 100% sure she is not in any pain.


I would appreciate ANYTHING from this community of very knowledgeable and support individuals.  Is this on-par for 'touchy' babies?  Have you been through something similiar (constant night waking)?  What have you done?  Are they harder to get into a routine?  Have you ever put them in bed with you out of sheer desperation?  Have you ever let them cry and for how long? 

Feel free to private message me if you can offer any support, commiseration, suggestions, etc.

Any thoughts?
Thanks again!!!
-Tori

[brownc623]

(((hugs)) Raising a refluxer is hard work. I know just what you mean when you said:

I feel sad that I do not know my baby better than this.  I feel like, if we could only figure out the problem, we could take steps to fix it.

I could've written that very sentence myself a month ago. I too have a touchy refluxer. I don't know if all refluxers are touchy, or if maybe we've just discovered that they were refluxers because they're touchy?

Good thinking with the elimination diets. I tried that with my LO, and found that it wasn't what I was eating that was disturbing him. It felt like a whole lot of work to determine that, but once it was over it was a relief and its nice to know that I'm not the cause of my DS's discomfort. I encourage you to continue to look for any possible reactions, even if you find nothing it will be a weight off your mind to know that its not your diet.

Other than Chiro and elim diets have you looked into medication for your LO? Medication made a world of difference for us, our LO would cry every night for 5 or 6 hours.. we were misdiagnosed colic, but I pushed the issue and w/in 2 wks of starting prilosec we had a totally different baby. He's so much happier.

Another thing to try if you haven't already is a cot wedge. They're usually 10-20 US dollars and if its reflux that's waking your LO that may make an immediate difference.

We were sort of losing our minds by that point, getting up and walking to the other side of the house every 20 minutes, so we broke down and put her in bed with us-- because, our sleep deprived minds were thinking that if she is going to be up every 30 minutes (at least), then at least it would be easier to deal with her.  Even after putting her in in bed with us, she still had great difficulty settling down.  We gave her tylenol, wondering if it is teeth, and after 20 min, she fell asleep.  She still woke 2 more times in the night and needed settling.

I hear you sister. We co-slept with DS many times on bad nights. Its so hard to manage at 1am when they're crying and you don't know why. Every question runs through your head... is he hungry? Am I going to make him reflux more if I feed him and he's not hungry? Is he teething? Should I give him Tylenol or am I just medicating a baby that's just hungry? Tylenol will soothe reflux pain, though its not something you would want to give routinely, so it could've been teeth, or reflux, its hard to say.

she doesn't really settle herself and would just end up screaming in hysterics

Now that you've been following the BW schedule for 11 days is your LO an independent sleeper? What is your naptime routine? Evening routine? Can you post your EASY?

[tori1083]

Brownc623- Thank you so much for responding. I am happy to hear that your son is getting better rest.

Other than Chiro and elim diets have you looked into medication for your LO? Medication made a world of difference for us, our LO would cry every night for 5 or 6 hours.. we were misdiagnosed colic, but I pushed the issue and w/in 2 wks of starting prilosec we had a totally different baby. He's so much happier.

Another thing to try if you haven't already is a cot wedge. They're usually 10-20 US dollars and if its reflux that's waking your LO that may make an immediate difference.

Regarding these things: We tried medicine (Prilosec) when she was about 7-12 weeks.  It helped only a little and the specialist we went to recommended we discontinue since it wasn't helping enough to justify its use.  Rather than medicine, we have used other environmental supports to help her, plus I think she has matured out of most of it.  She does not have noticeable issues with it now. She spits up on average 1 time per day (she use to vomit large amounts and spit up constantly).  We do, however, have her crib at about an 8 inch incline and she often sleeps on her side wedged between two huge blanket rolls (they do not sell those wedges in the USA anymore). 

She also HAS to have her arms restrained (I have sewn up the arm holes of a sleep sack) but can poke a fist up to her face, which she seems to like.  Very loud white noise is also an absolute must.  She used to use a paci to calm and go to sleep, but we would have to put it back into her mouth up to 5 times per night when it fell out.  This signaled, to me, prop dependence and we took it away when we started with BW techniques (shh/pat and pu/pd).

Now, she still wakes up regularly throughout the night, but instead of getting a paci, we shh/pat her or pu/pd.  So, it still seems like she is prop dependent.

But, I also wonder if she is sleep deprived.

Her naps tend toward good 1.5-2 hours (we try to keep it at just 2 per day).  But, she falls asleep late and wakes through the night.

We have a short before-sleep ritual: turn white noise on, put into sleep sack (arms in), rock her while singing a short song.  It seems adequate and she often goes down easily for naps.  Naps are actually pretty good.  She sometimes wakes up after 1.25hours and usually goes back to sleep with a short session of shh/pat.

So, here are my questions, is it: Reflux or tummy, prop (us) dependence, or overtired?  It seems like each of these would have different approaches.

Here is how our day usually looks:
E 7am
A 7:30- 10ish (inc. 1 tbsp veggie)
S 10-12pm

E 12pm
A 12:30-3pm (1 tbsp veggie)
S 3pm-5pm

E 5pm
A
E 7pm
A
E 9pm
S 9:30pm (try to get her to sleep, sometimes she does, sometimes not it takes a few hours of pu/pd and/or shh/pat)

Then, often wakes at 11, 1, 3, 5 ( or sometimes more).  Her middle of the night wakings are often one quick pu/pd and then hand on her back for a few minutes- easy!  Getting her down is often the hardest- it either takes a long time or she is awake, asleep, awake, asleep, etc.  She often will wake at the end of a 30,45,60min cycle.  Rarely, she resettles herself.  Often, she mantra cries and then it escalates to full on crying.

But, why the waking?

Thank you so much for your time (and anyone else who has any ideas, advice, or encouragement)!

[brownc623]

Getting her down is often the hardest- it either takes a long time or she is awake, asleep, awake, asleep, etc.

It sounds like she may be overtired. Right now you have her on a 14.5 hour day and also she has 4 hours of A time just before bed. Most babies do best on a 12-13 hour day with a bedtime between 7 and 8pm. Being overtired will make her wake up in the early part of the night. Is there a specific reason that she stays up till 9:30?

The later night wakings *could* be hunger? Refluxers tend to have a greater dependence on night feeds. Here's a FAQ on if/when to stop night feedings: When can I stop feeding at night?

If the later wakings aren't hunger, here's a FAQ to help troubleshoot: 10 reasons (other than hunger) a baby can wake at night

My suggestion would be to pull in BT to 8:00pm, consider adding a dreamfeed at 10 or 11pm. (Since she's a refluxer you might consider thickening it with oatmeal if you're giving it to her in a bottle or giving her oatmeal before her BT feeding. It does have to be oatmeal though, rice cereal won't thicken breastmilk as the amylase in the milk will break down the carbohydrates in the rice) how a simple thickener has improved LO's silent reflux by 80%

If that cuts out her early night wakings and she wakes later in the night (like maybe that 3am wake up) I might try feeding her. If she takes a full feed and stays asleep the rest of the night then you know she was hungry. If not, and if the wake ups are at exactly the same time each night then the wakeups may be habitual How to address habitual wakings (w2s and other methods)

Keep in touch!

[tori1083]

Hello, Brownc623- thank you again for your thoughtful response.

It sounds like she may be overtired. Right now you have her on a 14.5 hour day and also she has 4 hours of A time just before bed. Most babies do best on a 12-13 hour day with a bedtime between 7 and 8pm. Being overtired will make her wake up in the early part of the night. Is there a specific reason that she stays up till 9:30?

She had a hard time settling tonight as well (woke for an hour about an hour after going to sleep).  I think you are right- overtired.  I think we are basically where we are with the late bedtime b/c of accidental parenting- foolishly looking at her cues for needing sleep (has not seemed tired at night) and also thinking that the later we keep her up, the better she will sleep (unbelieveably, she used to stay up until 10-11pm or later).  I actually feel quite dumb- especially since this is my 2nd (my first slept 12 hours at night starting at 3-4 months).  When we began the BW strategies 11 days ago, we tried the 7pm-7am bedtime/wake up for several days.  However, she had great difficulty getting to sleep after the 7pm feeding.  She often wouldn't settle until after 10pm, so, we thought we would go back to a later time and try to help her get the hang of that time first before gradually moving to an earlier time.

Do you think we should go ahead and start with an earlier time?  Should we do it gradually or go straight for 8pm?  What if she is not showing signs of being tired?  If we move to an earlier bedtime, how long might we expect for her to have difficulty going to sleep and staying asleep early on?

My suggestion would be to pull in BT to 8:00pm, consider adding a dreamfeed at 10 or 11pm. (Since she's a refluxer you might consider thickening it with oatmeal if you're giving it to her in a bottle or giving her oatmeal before her BT feeding. It does have to be oatmeal though, rice cereal won't thicken breastmilk as the amylase in the milk will break down the carbohydrates in the rice) how a simple thickener has improved LO's silent reflux by 80%

I forgot to mention, that since starting BW, I have done a dreamfeed every night.  Often, I do it when she wakes around 11 or 11:30.  Rarely, she has been asleep and it still works out well.

Drs. had recommended rice in bottle of breastmilk before bed.  We will try giving her a small meal of oatmeal before her last feeding or in a bottle.  Wow! Thank you for telling me to try oatmeal.

If that cuts out her early night wakings and she wakes later in the night (like maybe that 3am wake up) I might try feeding her. If she takes a full feed and stays asleep the rest of the night then you know she was hungry. If not, and if the wake ups are at exactly the same time each night then the wakeups may be habitual How to address habitual wakings (w2s and other methods)

She is usually very easy to settle at the 3am wake up (often takes just one pu/pd or some shh/patting- 5 minutes to get her back to sleep).  Would she be more difficult to settle if it were hunger?  I just don't want to start dependence on an additional night feeding if it is not necessary.  She is a very healthy weight with lots of extra chub

Thank you so so much!!

[brownc623]

foolishly looking at her cues for needing sleep (has not seemed tired at night) and also thinking that the later we keep her up, the better she will sleep

Not foolish at all. Truly you would think that parenting would be more intuitive iykwim! I was putting my LO down after 1 hour of A till almost 4 months old thinking he was tired. Thank God I found this forum and the books to help me realize that I was misinterpreting my LO's signals. Sometimes these lil guys are just more difficult to interpret than you would expect. I think Tracy had it right looking at it from the baby's perspective, they're a little person with their own mind, but sometimes they're not the best communicators!

Do you by chance have her EASY recorded from when you were trying the 7 to 7 routine?

Should we do it gradually or go straight for 8pm?

Its really your call, whatever you think would work best for your LO. Since it sounds like nights are already difficult you might try it immediately and see how it goes. If you're looking for a gentler approach I would look carefully for her tired signals starting at about 7:30ish until 9:15. IF you notice two or more tired signals within a half hour I'd try to get her down then. Tracy's books indicate that you should get them down to bed before the third yawn. Otherwise if she's acclimated to the 9:30 BT I would try for 9:15, wait for 3 days at 9:15 then move it back again 15 min. Review S.L.O.W. and watch her to see how she's reacting, but take it with a grain of salt since it takes time for their bodies to acclimate to a new schedule. Once you've arrived at an ideal EASY it will be anywhere from 3 to 14 days to see her go down without a fuss. Even though you're questioning yourself you should definitely trust your instincts, no one knows your LO better than you do. It WILL happen! With my DS I thought for sure I'd never truly be able to lay him down and walk out of the room, but I did and you will too.

She is usually very easy to settle at the 3am wake up (often takes just one pu/pd or some shh/patting- 5 minutes to get her back to sleep).  Would she be more difficult to settle if it were hunger?

Yes, I think you're right; it would probably be more difficult since your LO is touchy. Don't introduce the feed unless necessary. Just keep the idea on the back burner once the early NW are gone if the later NW become more difficult.

[tori1083]

Do you by chance have her EASY recorded from when you were trying the 7 to 7 routine?

Hi- Yes, I  have my schedule when we were trying to follow a closer 7-7 schedule.  Here were 3 days in a row (the naps have improved greatly since these few days, they are easily 1.5 hours now on average, likely because awake time was too short- we have fixed the daytime now).:

Sunday:
E: 7, woken to eat
A: 7:30-8:30, 8:30 solids (sweet potato- 1/3 tbsp)
S: 9:10-11:05 nap (9:15-9:30 shh/pat and pu/pd)

E: 11:05
A: 11:30-1:30
S: 1:30-2:25 (tried and failed to resettle) gotten out of bed at 2:50

E: 3
A: 3:30-5
S: 5-5:45 catnap

A: 5:45-7:25
E: 7:25
S: 7:55 - Bedtime

E: 11pm (she woke up to eat, we usually dreamfeed around this time)
S: 11:30-2:30
2:30am pu/pd once, took 15 min to fall asleep
3:30am pu/pd once, took 15 min to fall asleep
6am- could not resettle, tried for 30 min. then gotten up to eat


Monday
E: 6:45am
A: 7:15-8:15, 8:15 (1/3 tbsp sweet potato)
S: 8:40- 10:30 nap

E: 10:30 (woke up on own)
A: 10:30-12,  12pm (1/3 tbsp sweet potato)
A: 12:30-1 (bath)
E: 1 (breastmilk snack), awake
S: 1:25-2:25 (could not get to resettle)

E: 3pm
A: 3:30- 5
S: 5-6pm (catnap)

E: 6pm
A: 6:40-7:30
E: 7:30
S: 7:45 BEDTIME

8:30-11:20pm: Awake, could not resettle, fed 4oz breast milk at 10pm.  Given Tylenol for suspected teeth pain at 11
11:20: fell asleep (pain relief?)
4am: awake, 2 pu/pd (15 min total)
6am: awake, could not be resettled
7am: fed

Tuesday 1/1/2013
E: 7am
A: 7:20-8:00, 8:00 (1/3 tbsp sweet potato)
S: 9:00-11 (fussed at 10:20, back to sleep after shh/pat)

E: 11am
A: 11:30-1:30, 1:30 (1tbsp sw potato)
E: 2:15 (2 oz breastmilk)
S: 2:30pm- 4pm (couldnt resettle)

E:4:20
A:4:40-6
E: 6(other side)
E: 7:30
S: 8 (needs shh/pat and soothing to fall asleep)-- never really sleeps, fusses on an off until 10pm, at which pt we try a dose of tylenol (teeth??)

E: 10pm - tried to feed, not very hungry at all.  Ate maybe an ounce? 
10-11 still awake
S: 11-1:30
1:30-2 awake, needs help to resettle
3:30-4 awake, help to resettle
5:30-6 awake, help to resettle
E: 7:30 (we woke her up)

GOOD NEWS!
Last night, she was asleep at 9:30 and then needed help to resettle from 10:20-11:10.  I did a dream feed at 12:30am (I wanted to make sure she was fully asleep b/c I think she sleep easier afterward if she can just remain asleep).  After that, she slept peacefully until 5:15 (needed shh/pat and 2 pu/pd- 20 min total), fell asleep, fussed a  little at 6ish but went to sleep on her own and then we woke her up at 7am.  This was a good night!! She effectively slept from 11:10-5:15 and only needed our help one time.  PROGRESS!

We will try feeding her at 8:30 or 9:45 tonight (unless we see tired cues before that) and try to get her to sleep by 9:00 or 9:15.

I feel like we may be making progress and I think you were right about overtired.

Thank you so much again for your feedback and suggestions!!!!