Nws + EWs + short nights are back.What do I do with this kid????

[EloysH]

Grants,  I am going to trawl back and try and answer your questions re food intolerances now.  I am finding it hard to keep up,  Maybe  a new thread ? or else we can take this convo off line. 

[EloysH]

Thank you for posting Eloise! I really appreciate all your thoughts  


Quote from: EloysH on September 06, 2011, 09:24:47 PM
It just seems so similar to Kai's story. Kai had 6 weeks of Nw'ing every 2nd or 3rd night coupled with EW/s of 5am or so at about the age of 12-14 months. Because it went on for so long it was kind of a blessing in disguise because we were able to say that no, we have ruled out any prop issues, no, you can't be teething for that long. No, sicknesses are finished.   We finally cracked it when we eliminated troublesome foods.  He was always a bad sleeper, but we got to place where he was sleep trained so many times that we knew he could do it if he wanted but he continued to wake at night and EW.

Did Kai have a good stretch of sleeping through the night consistently like M? DS slept through the night from around 5.5 months to around 9 months. Almost 4 months of good STTN every single night but still EWs. But I’m not too concerned with his EWs. DH and I are early risers and this is very much DH and mine body clock. I’m more concerned with the NWs. Can he have food intolerance even though he managed to STTN for all those months in the past? Did Kai sleep through the night consistently for a few months before his NWs started?


Quote from: EloysH on September 06, 2011, 09:24:47 PM
This is based on the assumption that you can rule out 2 year molars, the reason I am ruling out the molars is that he seems rather happy during the day?

M has never been affected by teething during the day. He is always happy during the days. He was like this for all 16 teeth. Teething only seems to bother him during the night. I never gave him meds during the day for teething.


Quote from: EloysH on September 06, 2011, 09:24:47 PM
You said he finds it hard to wind down (I am asssuming that is a norm as opposed to OT?).

Yes. It’s more like a norm, even when I’m 100% certain he is not OT due to good naps and good nights he still takes a while to switch off at BT. I think this is more a trait thing. I used to be like this myself. Not as a baby/toddler but when I was a teenager and young adult. I have learned how to relax now, so I don’t have that problem very often anymore.


Quote from: EloysH on September 06, 2011, 09:24:47 PM
Kai isn't hyper as such but if he is having troubles with food he is certainly restless in the day a little wired and distractable and grouchy.  I can see the difference. He is also more demanding, and cranky as if he is OT, but it goes on and on for weeks.. and is linked to the NWing.  You could say of course he would be like that - he NW's. Well that could be true too.    But we have evidence because by taking the foods out, the NW's disappeared.

This is a difficult one to put my finger on as he is very, very happy even though he has NWs. Some days, not always, when he has bad nights he will be a bit grumpy in the mornings. But still energetic and happy, if this makes any sense?!  And his mood will get better after he has his nap. I think this would happen even to us, adults, if/when we had a bad night, iykwim?! Plus this in only on rare occasions he is not grouchy every day after bad nights.  He is very energetic but he is spirited so it’s hard to draw the line between temperament and food intolerances. Like for example, distractibility or perceptiveness, a more positive way of calling it. It’s very much a spirited trait. So he will stop at every corner to watch a flower, a stone, a cat, a bicycle, a truck…etc… but this is part of his spiritedness, yk?!  But he can concentrate very well. He can sit for at least 30 mins to work on puzzles if he feels like it, so although he is very energetic he has no problem concentrating.

Phew! There was a lot of food for thought on your post.  I think I have managed to ask you all the questions I ewanted. I hope I’m not missing anything

To answer in order:
1. Kai never really was a good sleeper. He was prop dependent on and off , it wasn't until he was weaned from BF at 12 months that I really got a handle on his NW'ing.  Having said that, I need to say that food intolerance symptoms can crop up at ANY time.  THe nature of food intolerances that reactions are the result of a build up of the intolerabe substance, at one point the gut can no longer process/digest the food properly and symptoms start to show.

2. The jury is out on teeth, I would read between the lines to say it is not teeth.

After reading back through the recent posts, what I really have to add now is this: -

If you can be sure that you have ruled out all the behavioural reasons for the night waking , you can rule out teeth, then there are not many places to explore left.  That is why I am bringing up food intolerances.   But it looks like you still have some avenues to put to rest re the independent sleep at bedtime... so maybe really have a good go at that first, then if he is still having long night wakings every few nights, then proceed with elimination diet - food intolerance route.

With Kai, we were 100% sure that he was able to go down for all sleeps independently before we decided that all this Ap'ing during  long night wakings really was related to pain (sore tummy and food intolerances) and not behavioural. We really did feel that he was in discomfort at night, as he was falling asleep many times into a lgiht sleep and then waking up again to us with what seemed discomfort.

Does that help ?

[firsttimemummy]

Have given up trying to read the whole thread!

 How many hours did he sleep before he dropped the 2nd nap?

 Do you consistently put him to bed at the same time each night? If he takes a long time to wind down what time do you start this process? We feed Murray (very spiritied!!) at 5.30pm then he goes for a long bath, then story etc so is in bed at 7pm so he actually has a quiet 1.5 hours before he has to sleep.

Do you have music in his room? I find this really helps Murray - maybe classical music, or hypnobirthing soundtrack (Steven Halpern, the Comfort Zone) - we keep it on all night ...

When he wakes would he lie in bed next to you or go back to sleep if you were in his room (cot,even!!?)?

[Grants]

Yes Eloise, I also think that we have to get him back to sleeping independently. He knows how to do it but he just chooses not to at home. He has no problems falling asleep independently at nursery. Around 4 months ago he started to insist on having us in the room then we tried WI/WO and it was a disaster as mentioned above. So we have been staying in his room since then.

BTW, M doesn't have long NWs all the time though. Long NWs normally only happens when he is in pain or/and due to UT.

Lucy, you have a point about the music. We will def look into that. Funnily enough, one of the carers in the new room at nursery mentioned the same thing as they also use music in the new room at nap times. Does Murray sleep well with music? How long have you been doing this for ?

Re: wind down. I have tried it all and it doesn't matter how long or how short the wind down is it doesn't make a difference in his nights. In fact a very long wind down can wind him up  
 up.

[firsttimemummy]

we tried WI/WO and it was a disaster as mentioned above. So we have been staying in his room since then.

gradual withdrawal? each nap/night get a few steps closer to the door, or every few mins take a small step to the door ...

Does Murray sleep well with music? How long have you been doing this for ?

We did the music in his room from when he was tiny - it was the hypnobirthing and Mozart cd I listened to when I was pregnant.  Over time we used other cd's and recently we put the radio on (Radio 1 etc now!!) - I know that when I am studying etc I actually work better with background music/tv on so guess Murray is the same.  Also, if I can't sleep at night the tv gives me something to focus on and I end up falling asleep .... (not that I suggest tv for lo's!!)

I would talk to the nursery and see how they put him to sleep and try it at home - talk about it before hand and do the same as they do ..... hopefully if he is getting to sleep without you in the room (Eventually) when he wakens he isn't expecting you there so may fall back asleep again.

Sorry you are having a tough time - I reckon we should keep a note of their sleep and when they are teenagers go day-by-day through their routine for a year or two (ie get THEM up at the times they got us up as our bodies will be so used to nw/ew it will be hard to get out of the habit, while they have their hormones to tire them out)

[Shiv52]

Maeve falls asleep to music and it really helps her relax and gives her something to concentrate on.  For a while there she was flat out listening to a christmas cd she found and it was driving me bonkers so have hidden it until its a bit closer to christmas!  So now she's listening to my IPOD and whatever random music is on there. 

Hope you'd a good party today xx

[Grants]

Lucy , it's impossible to replicate the nursery setting. All the Los who still have naps go on matts on the floor after lunch and sleep. Apparently M is brilliant at it. Fall asleep straight away with no problems  at least I know my sleep training was not totally in vain lol

Yes. The music idea is brilliant!  M used to have an old IPOD in his room with classical music. We only used it when he was a baby for bath and wind down but not for sleep.

Shiv, the birthday party was fantastic !!! M enjoyed himself so much! He was a perfect host. He would run to the door as soon as he heard the bell. Opened all his presents by himself. Blew candles very nicely. It was lovely to see him enjoying himself with his little friends.
But all the excitement meant that GW today didn't work . He was super agitated at BT was chatting very loud. In the end DH had to caress his hair for a minute or so to help him relax.

Question for you ladies , at what age Los start to have nightmares? M has started to wake up once a night, instead of numerous times, calling me with a very distressed type of crying he is def anxious/ fearful or perhaps even having some nightmares ??

[firsttimemummy]

Sounds like a lovely party

Murray had the occasional nightmare around that age - he just needed a cuddle and got back to sleep. Poor wee boys, wonder what they dream about!

[Grants]

Karen and Eloise I have a question for you. I just want to clarify that I’m not challenging or doubting your views. I know you both have a valid point and I’m really grateful for your ideas and input. I just want to understand the whole food intolerances scenario.

OK , to ask the question I will have to tell you about M’s routine and foods yesterday.

He had Weetabix (wheat cereal) with rice milk for breakfast, and then at around 8:30am he asked for shreddies (another whole grain wheat cereal). He was really tired and started to moan and cry for no apparent reason around 10:10am. (Remember yesterday he had bags under his eyes ) So I took him upstairs and he napped from 10:30am to 12:15pm. We had his birthday party at 13:30 so I let him sleep for as much as he wanted. I let him choose from the birthday nibbles for lunch. So he only chose unsalted tortillas, red and green grapes . He didn’t want any of the homemade quiches and little sandwiches that I made and of course didn’t touch the guacamole.  Then his little guests started to arrive. He ate tortillas and grapes on the go for the whole afternoon. He had quite a lot of juice (not from concentrate, natural orange and apple juice). I normally don’t give him juice but it was his birthday so I let him have it. After the guests left he asked me for cheese and olives I gave him some. We went upstairs for wind down with a glass of rice milk. That was it for the day. He STTN last night from 6:55pm to 5:50 am.

So here is my question: If he had food intolerances to dairy or/and wheat, fructose, citrus fruit etc…how could he have slept through the night have eaten quite a lot of those? As you both said it is cumulative. So he has wheat, dairy and lots of fruit every day??    

[EloysH]

Well that is alot of dairy wheat and salicylates    and happy birthday M! Glad he had a great day.    It might be preservatives or additives, maybe his threshold is high enough that he can handle quite a bit of whatever he is intolerant to and then tips over the edge.  When Kai was having his episode of 6 weeks of night waking the pattern was sttn the night 1-2 nights then NW for 1-2 nights. He was having varying amounts of dairy, somedays none and other days more. Sometimes we got 3 sttn but never more than that.  So sttn is part of the equation with a food reaction for us. I guess he was sttn because he would get really tired from the NW's, then once he had made up his sleep debt with somesttns and long naps he would be awake and restless throughout the night and falling in and out of light sleep, clearly uncomfortable. (mind you he was only napping 1.5 hours a day at 12 months old and about 10 hours at night... since we sorted it out ne naps more (2 hours) and has longer nights sleep 10.5 -11 hours). So again the persistence of the night waking is a major clue.

Just going back  a step, I think food intolerance is only probable once you have ruled out props and feel 100% that he is going down for all sleeps independently.  Behavioural & tempermanent is so much more likely to be the culprit for night wakings. We weren't ready to blame food until everything else has been ruled out, which is why it took 6-8 weeks of hell to figure out  

[Shiv52]

So glad you had a lovely day and M enjoyed his party and yay for STTN!

I think doing an ED is a huge challenge for all involved.  And you do have to be sure that there is nothing else at play before you do it.  So i agree with this:

Just going back  a step, I think food intolerance is only probable once you have ruled out props and feel 100% that he is going down for all sleeps independently.  Behavioural & tempermanent is so much more likely to be the culprit for night wakings.

I would put your plan for GW in place and stick with it.   I know you said he was very OT last night and DH ended up stroking his head but once you put the plan in place you really have to stick at it.  Certainly help him winddown but once you say your sleepy phrase and move away, you are away.    Its not like doing GW with a smaller baby where you can go back to check and help if they are getting worked up.  At this age you don't as it is just too too confusing.   

You have to beable to let go of the fear that he is going to wind himself up and go to bed even later and then you might have NWs etc because you are teaching a skill and he has to be allowed to relearn getting himself to sleep.  Its not the biggest deal as you were only 1 night in to your GW but once you are a few days in going back to help him settle will set things back further again as the LO learns 'ah i just need to do x and they come back anyways' and they will always up the ante.   You have to be in a position to let him learn he is starting to settle himself and ride out the nights as best you can until he has learned the skill. 

Which is why I think you need to move through it quickly.  3 days in the room.  3 days at the door.  3 days outside.  Then out of sight reassuring just with your voice. 

How do you settle NWs?  Do you go in reassure and leave? Or stay with him until he is back asleep?    Again from a food intolerance point of view until he is resettling himself or even with you just popping in and saying 'still sleepy time' and kiss and out, you will never know if its because he needs you to be there or because he is in discomfort.  And obviously that is me assuming he doesn't resettle for NWs alone or with minimal help. 


{{{{hugs}}}}}

[Grants]

Thank you for posting ladies I want to use your quotes but I'm on my phone.

Eloise , it's interesting that you found a pattern with Kai. If after all the efforts DS still continues with the bad nights. I will start a new diary with the NWs. I have done it once but I couldn't find any pattern with his nights. It is also very interesting the comment about high threshold. My NAET practitioner also said that.

Shiv, last night was our third night of GW. DH started by standing near the door with his back to DS. This evening he standed outside DS's door but left the door open. So we will do it with the door open another 2 nights and then we are planning to close the door and leave him to it with a little book or/and a toy.What do think about the book and toy idea ? It only took DS 12 mins to fall asleep tonight. He was pretty loud though shouting DH by his name . Pretty funny and cute. DH ignored most of it but when he got super loud DH used the sleep phrase (only twice more). Is the while techinique sounding alright to you?

At night we tend to leave DS to it. If the moan persists we go in. For example: If DS moans a few times and stop I won't go in. But if he moans for too long I go in and cover him. I don't say anything just walk in , do a sush sound cover him and leave. Now he has a new thing about shouting for me in a very distressed type of cry. In that case DH or I will go in as otherwise it escalates to the point that he is wide awake. TBH we were/are traumatised with the long NWs and by the fact that if we left him to it for too long it took twice as long to settle him so we started to go in more often just in case he would wake himself up to a point of needing us to stay in his room with him. All too Complicated

Anyway, I forgot to mention that DS also settled by himself at nap time today. So far so good . I'm amazed by the fact that he hasn't forgotten how to settle by himself after 4 months of having us in his room with him?

[firsttimemummy]

That is sounding really positive

[Shiv52]

Shiv, last night was our third night of GW. DH started by standing near the door with his back to DS. This evening he standed outside DS's door but left the door open. So we will do it with the door open another 2 nights and then we are planning to close the door and leave him to it with a little book or/and a toy.What do think about the book and toy idea ? It only took DS 12 mins to fall asleep tonight. He was pretty loud though shouting DH by his name . Pretty funny and cute. DH ignored most of it but when he got super loud DH used the sleep phrase (only twice more). Is the while techinique sounding alright to you?

This sounds perfect!  Its fine to use your sleep phrase just don't go back in or move from your spot.  Well done M!!!! 

Thats great about how you tackle NWs. 

Is he having night terrors do you think?  I remember M having those at about 2 YO and they were awful.  Were worse if she was OT.   Even now if she if really tired her sleep is disrupted and she thrashes about and calls me and talks in her sleep.  The other night she was crying in her sleep and shouting that DH took her milk and to give it back!  The good thing is although its hard for us to hear they don't remember it xx

[Grants]

Is he having night terrors do you think?  I remember M having those at about 2 YO and they were awful.  Were worse if she was OT.   Even now if she if really tired her sleep is disrupted and she thrashes about and calls me and talks in her sleep.  The other night she was crying in her sleep and shouting that DH took her milk and to give it back!  The good thing is although its hard for us to hear they don't remember it xx

M had only 1 night terror so far. It was awful! These could be nightmares? But these are def not night terrors. How do you deal with your M night terrors? Do you go to her room? When M had his night terror we were not sure what was going on? He was crying inconsolably. Nothing would stop him .  The next morning I did some research on it and found out it was a night terror.


Shiv, Do you think It is a good idea to give DS a book or/and a toy on the night we are planning to close his room door (in 2 nights) ?


I will never know what helped DS though. NAET or GW or both?? Last Friday the practitioner also treated his fear and anxiety at BT and during the night( by a technique called NET) Plus he was treated on Adrenal glands together with Adrenaline. He only has another 2 treatments left (related to his eczema, not sleep related treatments)  Too many variables so I will never know……

Now I’m the one who can’t sleep. It is 3:30 in the morning and I’m here typing