Nws + EWs + short nights are back.What do I do with this kid????

[Tweakster]

I wouldn't say he slept 'better' just different.  First off he moved from infant to toddler room, he was only 18 mths and still heavily needing that nap.  The nap conditions were different and he responded well right away, but was often disturbed by the kids that didn't nap well.  So that coupled with more stimulation, interaction and activity made for one tired little boy.  And we struggled to get bedtime early enough to cope.

This latest change was much harder on him because he was older, just 3 mths ago.  Again the sleeping conditions are different, he's on a cot by himself in a room he can come and go from on his own.  The first day he didn't 'get it' and screamed at her for 30 mins, told her not to touch him and generally gave her a hard time lol. And a couple of days after.  But by the end of week 1 he was napping fine.  And we've been playing with the nap length ever since. 

So he coped but there was a transition period and yes for us it included NW where we never had any in the past.

I guess the truth is we don't know for 100% when F falls asleep, unless it's one of the occasions we take the monitor with us ie if we're going outside or what not.  But I do know it isn't anywhere near 30 mins.  Now some kids may need that time but I suspect there's more of a loop going on here.

[Grants]

M moved from the baby room to the toddlers room when he was 16 months. The sleep got much worse then. He didn't have problems napping in there but the nights were horrendous for about 2 months! I think there was too much stimulation for him to handle. Now this new room is in between the toddlers room and the preschoolers room and I'm dreading it on the sleep front plus a bit concerned with change of carers.

He STTN last night. But only 9 hours night(8pm to 5:10am). I thought he was tired as he was very moody when DH brought him to our room after the groclock(5:30).but then DH offered to take him downstairs and he was back to his very loud happy self after the offer, so he wasn't tired at all he just hates being quiet upstairs when he is awake. I just don't get it! At 5am was pitch black , he only had a 9 hours night and the groclock was not on yet. Why doesn't he just sleep in those conditions like 99.9%
of the kids ??

So from what I wrote what do you think? I'm thinking 1 hour nap regardless his 9 hours night and keeping it that way. I'm hoping that when he is in the new room he regulates himself as he will be tired with the new activities and on only 1 hour nap hopefully having longer nights? Do you think this is a good plan?

[Grants]

We are out and about today as my mum is here visiting. DS fell asleep in the car at 9:20am. There is nothing we can do about it now. We are going to have to play it by ear today. I hope we can have an early BT today to catch up and start a fresh tomorrow with 1 hour nap. Looking forward to hearing your views on that   

[babybarr]

like 99.9%
of the kids ??

I think you'll find it's 99.8%.... you forgot mine

I think this is a really tough call and it definitely sounds like he is tired. O wouldn't fall asleep in the car unless he was super tired.

I'm wondering about you doing an early nap at say 11am cap it at the hour and then bed at 7pm if he sleeps till 5.30am you have your 10.5hrs but I wonder if he may sleep more.  I'm really sorry hun if that's something you have already tried.

[Tweakster]

But he did sleep.  He slept 9 hrs.  Finn still does this!  And he can be a total chipperoo on 9 hrs sleep, but over several days, the facade cracks and out comes this totally tired demon.  If Miguel is happy, never melting down, eating well, staying healthy - well then I'd say not to worry.  But regular NW we know are not healthy for us as a species.  Is there any possibility he has sleep apnea?

If it were me, I'd go for the longest nap that doesn't interfere with his nights.  And that would be experimental on your part.  It might mean 1 hr or it might mean 45 mins or it might mean no nap at all.  You have to try these scenarios before we know if it will work.  Going this long with NW, I'd want to try a no nap day (or two if that's what it takes) and see if you can get him to stretch that night a tad.  Then add in a nap and go from there.  Now because he's so young he may crash at 9 hrs or maybe he'll go the distance, who knows.  Then you can see when his mood deteriorates and how far he can go.  I have had to do that with F more often than not because he never gives adequate signs (until way too late) and I have no idea if he's UT or OT because it looks the same.  Now we're so much better at making that determination (better than we were, we're still not figured it out completely) and can respond.

If it weren't for all the NW I'd say leave it.  And I'm not totally unconvinced it's not teeth because they just made such a difference in our house once they were all through. 

[Grants]

Thank you the replies ladies

Yesterday he had one 40 mins nap in the morning and another 30 mins at 1:30pm, both in the car. Then DH put him down at 7pm( I tried but it was a disaster so had to ask DH to do it. BT with me these days is a nightmare, anyway this is another thread). He STTN again last night until 5:30am Unfortunately I think the groclock woke him up this morning. It was pitch black so the clock looks much brighter at 5:30( the brightness setting is already on the lowest but he is sensitive to light). The reason I think the clock woke him up is because he woke up crying and calling me, when I walked in he lay down again so I think he could have slept longer. I changed the setting to 6am but I think I will put it to 5:45 to start with. I don't want to push my luck. Hehe

We had NAET appointment yestrday. M is fine/strong now for Melatonin,Serotonin and Dopamine. I asked the practitioner to test him for Cortisol and Cortisone and bingo! He was also weak for it. So she treated him yesterday for both hormones and I hope this will make a difference with the switching off during the night and at BT. These are stress hormones. "Flight or fight response " so I reckon this can make a huge difference.

Laura, I have done that one before. I have found that he will go down earlish at BT if DH puts him down, independent of nap time, but when I try to put him down there is so much drama and stalling ! It's unbelievable !! I think DH will have to do BTs for a long time. I just would like to be able to do BT somedays

Wendy, I have thought about Apnea too. I read Vicki's thread as I asked about it the other day on the spirited support thread but DS doesn't have any signs as I have watched him sleep and the breathing looks peaceful? But I have also heard that some people don't show the classic signs. Now try convince our GP to do a sleep study with him.

[babybarr]

WRT sleep apnea the sleep clinic told me if DS had it he'd be *really* sleepy all the time i.e. falling asleep at a drop of a hat and being hard to wake in the morning.  They wouldn't even consider testing DS in the end as they said he showed no signs...

[Grants]

Laura, I'm hoping that the NAET treatment alone will sort it out! I hate dealing with GP's. They are so unhelpful most times. 

WRT sleep apnea the sleep clinic told me if DS had it he'd be *really* sleepy all the time i.e. falling asleep at a drop of a hat and being hard to wake in the morning.

This is rubbish as Vicki's girls are spirited and not good sleepers either, but they did show signs. But I have heard that some people don't show the classic signs. This is what I mean, most times these professionals just don't want to take things further or have different opinions or think we are exaggerating and its all normal.  It depends a lot on which professional you talk to and if he/she is willing to listen to you and take things further.

[babybarr]

Totally agree with everything you just said!

I personally think they should've ruled it *out* just in case.

[sianie]

{{Hugs}} Grants!!

I agree about the sleep study....DS has had a few over the last year & a half & as you may know, recently got diagnosed with sleep apnea (but he had shown a lot of the symptoms) but if you have tried everything else then I would have thought a sleep study would have been the next step (although I'm sure it'll come down to funding etc... )

[koe2moe]

Hope it goes better already!! Hugs

[Grants]

Thanks ladies Sian I think it will be really hard or almost impossible to get a referral  for a sleep study for DS. The only time I ever discuss DS's sleep with my GP was when I was trying to get a prescription for Melatonin. They were so against it saying that DS is a very healthy and happy child and there was no need for Melatonin and its normal for kids his age not to sleep bla bla bla... Now can you imagine trying to get them to refer him for a sleep study?! 

On a positive note we are getting better nights for the last 3 nights and I'm def capping the nap to 1 hour at first to see how he goes. He is taking too long to fall asleep these days so I really wonder if he is too rested at BT. I think the NAET treatment is starting to kick in. I don't want to speak too soon though lol

[Grants]

Hi ladies,

Yesterday we had 1 NW after 3 good nights. It used to be 2 good nights and then it all would start again   . Yesterday was M’s first day on 1 hour nap(crashed at 11:20am). Asleep by 7:30pm(still took 20 mins to fall asleep) and awake at 5:30am. He had one 15 mins NW at around 2am, which is better than multiple ones and/or very long ones.  I still took ages to fall asleep again after the NW. Broken sleep sucks

I have few questions to ask:

1) Is it normal for toddlers to have NWs when there is a tweak in the routine? Does it get better after 5 or 7 days? I know M can’t be considered ‘normal’ on the sleep front as he has NWs in any scenario but the reason I’m asking is because he had 3 good nights but after the tweak he had 1 NW. So I’m hoping this NW is due to the tweak and as soon as he gets used to the 1 hour nap it will stop?

2) Is it OK for him to have 11 or 11.5 hours total sleep in the long run? As long as he sleeps through the night? He might not prolong his nights at all. Like yesterday he only had 11 hours total sleep in 24 hours. A few months ago he was on 1 hour naps but his total sleep was shocking as he won’t tack.

Thank you for holding my hand again lovely ladies.  

[sianie]

Yes, any routine change (especially nap cutting) can take a few days for some LO's to adjust to. I would try to be as consistent as possible over the next few days & see if things settle down.

I would say 11/11.5hr night would be pretty good whilst he's still napping, M was doing 11/11.5hr nights when she was still having a 1hr nap.

[Grants]

I meant 11 hours total, including the nap. That's what he normally do. I know it's low but if he STTN it's worth it , right ?!