Will W2S work for my 10month old?

[mom2elise]

DD is 10 months old.   She is *very* attached to me, and has been even more so lately (won't even go to grandma who she sees ~4x a week)     She might be teething? (she has no teeth yet, and has been extra fussy in the last few days).   I try to keep our days fairly low-key... only one outing a day, she's an only child.

I've gotten into the bad habit of nursing her to sleep... it works for us right now as I'm at home with her full time, but then DH can't put her down for naps or bed at night.

She's quite small for her age (just over 15lbs at 10 months) and not a great eater (solids), so I always feel like I should feed/nurse her when she will take it... which seems to be right before sleeping, and also throughout the night.

Our typical EASY:

7:30 wake/nurse a bit
8:30 solids
10:45-12:00 nap 1 (nurse to sleep)
1:00pm solids
3:30-4:00 nap 2 (nurse to sleep)
6:00 dinner
8:00 nurse to sleep (usually falls asleep and I put her in the crib by 8:20)

occasionally, if she doesn't fall asleep nursing at night, then I sit in her room by her crib and let her suck my pinky.   If I make any attempt to leave the room and she isn't asleep, she will start to fuss and cry.

at 11:30pm she wakes, and I nurse her back to sleep
at 3:00 am, she wakes, and I nurse her back to sleep
at 5:30am, she wakes, and I nurse her back to sleep   

I'm pretty sure that these are habitual wakings, as she has been quite consistent at the wake times. 

Fortunately, at these 3 wakings, she has always gone back to sleep if I nurse her

If I attempt to "wake to sleep"... do I just jostle her a bit?   Or do I feed her?   Or do I send DH in to her?

I'm very tired.   And need to start thinking about going back to work.   

[sbchic1999]

I think you might need to start weaning her from the feeds first.  Slowly decrease your feed, one feed at a time by 3 minutes every 3 days if you are breastfeeding.  So if she normally nurses for 10 minutes nurse her for 7 minutes for the next 3 nights.  Then do 4 minutes for hte next 3 nights, etc.  Personally I think you need to take care of at least one of these feeds first before you try to cut the waking out.  My pedi also suggested giving a little water instead of milk.  So maybe if you are using formula you could gradually increase the amount of water (oz by oz every few nights).  Because her little belly is used to the volume so she will continue to be hungry at those times because that is what her body is trained to do.  Once she learns to eat less at night she will *theoretically* increase her amount of food during the day. HTH   

[mom2elise]

thanks for the suggestions.   

I'm breastfeeding her exclusively, so I'm not sure how much she's getting, but  at the 11:30pm, 3am and 530am wake-ups, she tends to actively suck for 10 minutes, and then turns her head when she's full.  She's asleep, and then I put her back into the crib... a few times, I've inadvertently jostled her, and still didn't seem to wake her at when it's in the middle of the night.

I guess I'll try to unlatch her mid feed?   The few times I've tried that, she's gotten MAD but it's been a while, so maybe it'll work this time.

I'll let you know.

[katie80]

I agree that she's going to need those feeds dropped gradually, so she gets used to not getting the calories at night, but I think she needs some independent sleeping skills as well to help you both through it. She likely gets mad when you try to shorten the feed, because feeding to sleep has become a prop and when she's not done with the feed/all the way to sleep, she doesn't know how to soothe herself. Are you ready/willing to work on a different way of settling her to sleep, i.e. shh/pat or PUPD?

I also think her routine could use a couple tweaks, so that she's more apt to sleep better. At 10 mo, I think that first nap could be pushed out a bit to after 3.5hr A, so at ~11 am. She's not doing a full nap there, which would be 1.5-2hr, so hopefully a bit more A time will help that. Then, her second nap can be anywhere from 30min-1hr, but if it's only 30 min, bedtime likely needs to be pulled in so that she's sleeping in the crib at 7:30 latest (that makes for a 12 hr day). As it is right now, I think she's going to bed OT and that's likely contributing to the NWs and her need to feed to sleep.

[*Ali*]

Hi. Just jumping over from your other thread. I know you weren't keen on the gentle removal I suggested so I think Katie's suggestions of pupd and or shh pat are great alternatives.

I think if you can teach her to self soothe then you may find the NWs reduce anyway as she becomes more able to get back to sleep herself.

[mom2elise]

Hi katie,

thanks for your suggestions.   A few questions then re: tweaking the routine.   Today, she woke at 7:50, and I stretched first A to 3.5h so went to nap 1 at 11:20.   She is indeed sleeping for longer than she used to for nap 1.   If she doesn't wake by 1pm on her own, do I wake her?   Otherwise, this will put nap 2 (3.5 after waking) too late (past 4:30?)   In the past, if she doesn't WAKE from nap 2 by 4:30, she doesn't seem tired by bedtime, and it seem today we won't be starting nap 2 until then.   

Last night, she "only" woke  at 3:30, fed for 20 minutes, and then up again at 6:30... nursed for 20 minutes, but fell back asleep, so I put her back into the crib until she woke at 7:50.   I'm  not a morning person myself, so this is fine for me but wondering if this messes up our EASY.

She's just a little thing (just 16lbs 1oz at 10.5 months) so the doctor said she might not be able to go a full 12 hours without feeding... I have a pretty bad case of "poor baby" syndrome

On the upside, she does seem a tiny bit more comfortable if I'm in another room for a few moments... she doesn't cry out immediately, so hopefully that phase is ending.   

Thanks again for your suggestions.

[katie80]

Stretching the A times like that puts her in the beginning of the 2-1 nap switch. So, you can still let her sleep up to 2 hr for the first nap, if you'd like and then the second nap will be capped to preserve bedtime.  I don't think it's a problem to start the day at 7:50, you'll just be on more of an 8-8 routine.  So, the EASY might look something like this...
Wake: 8 am
Nap 1: 11:30-1:30 pm
Nap 2: 5:00-5:45 pm (maybe only 30 min if she fights BT)
BT: 8 pm

I also think its totally fine for her to not go 12hr without a feed. If my baby was small, I'd be feeding too (in fact, my baby is not small and I still feed him occasionally ). I think the main thing is getting her to self-soothe, feeding when appropriate and making sure she's not OT at bedtime.

[mom2elise]

Thanks!   Will try that tomorrow....today was a disaster as we were out just before nap 2, and she fell asleep in the car as we were pulling onto our street.   DH decided not to waste fuel driving around aimlessly for 30 min...which I agree with, but she wouldn't go back to sleep in the house, and has been super cranky...didn't eat much for dinner, so I'm sure she'll be up a few times tonight.   She's in bed now asleep at 740, but not confident it will last!

[mom2elise]

And Ali, as for self soothing, I was very encouraged the other night as I watched her (on the video monitor) wake and fuss a bit, then roll over and grab her bear before falling back asleep.    I was in the midst of doing dishes, otherwise I probably would have rushed in too soon to try to "help" her back to sleep.   Now, I'm trying to wait 5 minutes before going in if she's not full out crying, and the "sound" isn't escalating.    I guess that's her mantra cry? 

[*Ali*]

Oh yes if it is just fussing or a mantra cry then you can hold back for a real cry.

[mom2elise]

I've been trying to stretch morning A to 3.5, which does indeed give me a 1.5-2 hr nap 1, but am having lots of trouble getting a nap 2 at all.   She needs it, though, as she is tired and cranky, but am I just missing her window?   So far today, woke at 8am, nap 1 1150-2:00 but wouldn't do nap 2 at 500.   I guess early bedtime then?   

She missed nap 2 yesterday as well, and was up 3 times overnight (I think because OT)

[katie80]

This is sometimes the tricky part of the 2-1.  First, I wouldn't let here sleep over 2 hr for the morning nap.  Then, you can push the CN a bit farther if you're on an 8-8 day.  She could go down as late as 5:30pm for just 30 min and then still do BT at 8 pm.  Another option would be to try to AP that CN in some way, by taking a walk with her in the stroller or carrier (if she'll fall asleep in one of those) or a short car ride (not very convenient at that time of day though ).  Otherwise, yes, EBT is what you'll have to do to keep OT at bay.  However, I think if you continue to gently push her every few days, you could get to 4.5hr A pretty easy (she did almost 4hr today), let her sleep for as long as she likes (up to 3hr ) and do 4.5hr A to bed.  She may be an early one to get to one nap.

[mom2elise]

Oh, maybe this is my problem for nap 2?    DD has now been up at 7, nap 1 1030-1200, so I try for nap2 at 330, but she's up at 4, and we start bath at 730.  So, maybe last A needs to be shorter, and in bed by 7?   Still NW at 1200 and 330am.   Sigh.   

It would be more convenient for me to have longer A in am, but I'm always afraid she won't have a long nap and then our day is messed up.

I'm also nursing to nap and bed still... I've gotten into some bad habits she's never fallen asleep independently.

[mom2elise]

Question about 2-1 transition... If we do get to 4.5 A in am, doing I feed lunch (solids) before or after nap?   I'll likely be nursing to sleep still

[mom2elise]

Oh, and another question re:independent sleep.   Today turned out this way:

After a midnight and 330 wake/feed overnight,

Up for the day at 700, ap 1 1030-1200,  nap 2 330-400, tried to start bedtime routine at 730 for bed at 800.   Did not fall asleep at breast, and put in crib.   She is babbling and rolling away.   Seems content, but that s because I am in the room with her.    If I try to leave, she will cry.    Does this count as  the "chair method" or should I be trying to eave the room before she's asleep?   It's been 40 minutes already.   I haven't touched her...she usually falls asleep on my breast  or sucking my pinky.   

She's also teething right now...just cut her first tooth.    Gave her Advil before bed.    And she does have separation anxiety during the day.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.