15mo - routine disappeared - NW + SER!

[Buttonbobs]

Tonight he's taken 45+ mins of laying quietly before actually falling asleep so I'm definitely not doing something right

I wouldn't say this necessarily means you're doing something wrong sweetie. If he wasn't crying and he did go to sleep then that sounds fine to me. Think about it like this if it helps - I know that since I've had E I've often gone to bed and fallen asleep straight away as I'm absolutely exhausted. When I was younger I used to lie awake reading for quite a while (sometimes hours if the book was good) before heading to sleep. As babies become toddlers they've got a lot more in the way of processing to do in their brains before sleep can happen. Perhaps he's just quietly thinking over his day and relaxing before he settles off to sleep. I would only think this was a problem if he was awake lots in the night after this. Hth x

What do you think about sticking to 12pm nap and 7pm bed regardless of wakeup or how long the nap is? Will that make him even more OT? If wakeup is closer to 7, is that long enough time for him to nap?

What about 12.30pm and 7.30pm regardless of WU or nap length? I say this only because looking at the last few weeks as a whole you have got later WUs from a slightly later BT and if you're getting a later WU then a later nap will work better. It's really not much different from what you are doing already and is quite appropriate for his age. Bear in mind you can move BT half an hour earlier if he appears absolutely shattered.

Can you please tell me also what I should classify as sleep? Anything where he's "quiet" even like tonight when I watched and saw him still awake?

Personally, I would go with when he's quiet. I would say this for your benefit mainly. It isn't going to change anything you knowing exactly the moment he falls asleep and it might help you to be calmer about it all, and the huge positive is you'll have more time to yourself if you leave him to it.

I'm just so confused and really discouraged I still haven't got this right after so long

(((Hugs))) sweetie. I'm not sure it is even something *you* can get right or wrong. He is a human being sweetie, and human beings do crazy and frustrating things. Sometimes LOs just don't want to sleep, even when they really need to. Can you get any time for yourself honey? Do you have any support at home?

[labrodyk]

you're so lovely Naomi - thank you so much for the support!!

Well after the 7pm bedtime last night he woke at 11.50 and cried for a good 10 minutes before falling quiet. He then must have knocked the monitor unit off the side table because that went crashing at around 4am. I can't remember if i heard crying but I assume he was awake then too. WU (chatting) was at 6.55.

What about 12.30pm and 7.30pm regardless of WU or nap length?

I'm happy to continue with 12.30pm but by 5pm he's usually pretty ratty and when we have our milk after bath at 6.30 he's crying for it. However, last night he was running around the loungeroom and playing chasey when I tried to get him to brush his teeth. Combine that with the 45 mins to fall asleep I couldn't determine whether he was UT or OT? I guess I can try 7.30 but if he wakes at the same time in the morning, won't this mean he's getting less sleep by the time he actually falls asleep than if he goes down at 7?

I know i shouldn't feel bad - I can't *make* him sleep but after following such good sleeping habits since he was a baby I would have thought he'd cotton on by now! Gosh, he'll probably start dropping that one short nap soon! **eeek!**

thank you so much,
Laura

ETA: I can't understand why with the nap at 12.30 by 11 he is just completely whingy, eye rubbing, yawning and getting super hyperactive? Should I not be putting him to sleep then?

Today was;
Nap: 12.20/25 (asleep 12.30) - 2ish
BT: 6.55. Took a while to go to sleep again but did so without a peep...

[Buttonbobs]

I can try 7.30 but if he wakes at the same time in the morning, won't this mean he's getting less sleep by the time he actually falls asleep than if he goes down at 7?

It might do, but until you try we don't know. He might surprise you

ETA: I can't understand why with the nap at 12.30 by 11 he is just completely whingy, eye rubbing, yawning and getting super hyperactive? Should I not be putting him to sleep then?

I know you did tell me when he was eating, but have you tried a snack at this point? And a change of scene?

When was the last time you put him down to nap at 11am? Have you tried this since moving to one nap? How was your afternoon when you did this?

Today was;Nap: 12.20/25 (asleep 12.30) - 2ishBT: 6.55. Took a while to go to sleep again but did so without a peep...

Well perhaps the 7pm BT on a 1.5hour nap works - maybe only go for 7.30 if you get a 2 hour nap. Let me know how your night goes.

[labrodyk]

Oh Naomi...what a terrible day!!

I had the scariest experience today and I'm still shaken up!n My parents were over and harry was super overexcited and in desperate need of a sleep. So I went to change his nappy with mum, which he usually hates and cries, but this was so much worse. He cried so much he stopped breathing! He went purple, limp and was trying to catch his breath but couldn't. I whacked him on the back, blew on his face and then turned him upside down before he finally took a breath! Then he went completely limp on my shoulder so lay him down with his feet in the air for a while but his lips were still blue and he was as white as a sheet but at least he was breathing!
I've never been so scared in my whole life and still can't stop thinking about it - i've been crying so much!!
I'm taking him to the doctor to talk about his lack of sleep and this incident first thing in the morning but I'll probably have nightmares tonight

He had quite a lot of cuddles and play and I warily put him in bed at 12.50 by which time he was so tired! I went and left him and came back around 2.45 and he was laying awake but didn't call to me until 3 (or that was the first time I heard him). Into bed at 7 and cried for about 30 seconds but lay quietly again for 40 mins before falling asleep. 

Last night we had no NW and woke at 6.40 but just so incredibly grumpy, whingy & clingy.

You asked about 11am sleep and we tried that back in January but it was still 1.5 hours. So it meant we got stuck in an early wakeup, early to bed situation.

To be honest, I have no idea what I'm doing or why my little man is so incredibly upset all the time. We're off to the doctor AGAIN tomorrow so will let you know how we go.

Is there any way of going back to the beginning of a 1 nap time and starting fresh? Then moving forward again?

[Buttonbobs]

Oh honey, so many ((hugs)) that sounds very scary. I'm going to ask a couple if other mods to have a look in case they can think of anything that might help.

Let me know how you get on at the doctors.

Xxx

[anna*]

Hugs I know how scary this is. My daughter does the same when she cries very hard, hurts herself or has a shock. Her diagnosis is RAS or may be called cyanotic breath holding depending where you are in the world. Of course this may not be what your baby has, but, if it is, it is not dangerous even though it is scary. Audrey had an episode this evening because she didn't want to go upstairs to bed, but tbh it is just something we deal with now. Hugs. Let us know what the Dr says.

[becj86]

So scary! Hugs xx

When you go to doc, try to stick to what happened and behaviours, rather than lack of sleep. It seems to help make you seem more objective and reasonable and they tend to take you more seriously.

[skatty]

Sorry I have no experience but read about this on the mod forum and had to come and give you hugs, that must have been terrifying. I hope you get some reassurances at the doc today xx

[weaver]

Oh my word, how frightening for you.  Hope you have reassurance from the doc. Hugs!

[labrodyk]

Oh ladies thank you so much for the support and hugs, I really truly appreciate it.

So, we have to go back to the doctor as he didn't really have an true answers. He is "medically" fine from what checks he did on the day which is a relief in itself. About the hyperventilating, crying frenzy episode he said it wasn't uncommon and gave me some tips on what to do if he does it again. He said it sounded like a temper tantrum but coupled with the not wanting to go to bed that he's typically OT.

I just need some help with what to do with our days?  Today he was quite good and happy up until 11am when he started to whinge, fuss, cling & cry. We watched a bit of tv for 30 mins before we continued some happyish play outside until lunch around 12. He is eating a little better but is getting "bored" with his food very quickly and starts throwing it over his high chair so we finished up pretty quickly.

WU: 6.50
Nap: 12.26. Asleep 12.30. Awake squealing, giggling laughing at 1.52 and crying at 2.10 so got him up.
BT: 7.05. Asleep 7.25

We had 2 tantrums and a completely yucky afternoon of misery...
* one shortly after nap & snack when my husband got home from work because he wanted to play in the car and would not stop crying. He wanted to be held and walked around crying/screaming until dinner at 5.30
* second was after dinner where I'd brought up Peppa pig on my phone and I turned it off which he didn't like. After I got him down from highchair he contined to scream and follow me around whinging and crying for 20 mins begging to be picked up. He had his fingers down the sides of his mouth (all teeth except 2 year molars have cut now...) so not knowing what to do I gave him a dose of ibuprofen which he inserted and plunged the syringe himself, enhaling the medicine.
Cuddles with me and a soft toy after this seemed to calm him enough for a bath and to get ready for bed.

Now, I probably did the wrong thing and I don't know whether after that last tantrum he was just completely past the realm of OT and in happy mode again or if the ibuprofen helped something...before tonight I was going to say our afternoons have been good but not sure about today...

Last 2 nights have been good with no NW and close to 7am chatter. Knowing Harry he is likely to be laying quietly for quite some time before chatting but at least it's not chatting at 5.30/6 am like it used to be...

I really dread our mornings now because I don't drive so I can't get out and back home quickly enough without stuffing up his nap at 12.30 from falling asleep in the buggy. I can't handle the constant whinging and crying.

He won't play with ANY of his toys either. Has countless toys and cats and blocks and everything else but won't play with them. And certainly won't play by himself...so draining.

Thank you so much
Laura

[anna*]

You are already getting advice on your routine etc so I'll just speak to the breath holding and also playing.

I don't know what your Dr advised but if he is anything like my daughter then there is really nothing 'to do' when he has an episode. What happens is that she stops breathing, passes out, and then as soon as she is unconscious she starts to breathe again. So it is dramatic but all over very quickly. It does take her longer to 'recover', I wonder if the blackout leaves her with a headache or something, because she needs lots of cuddles for a long time after.

You speak about there being lots of toys - I do find with mine that less is more. As an experiment, I would try putting away ALL the toys out of sight except for one simple toy. My kids find it much easier to focus when there is less choice.

[labrodyk]

Hi Anna!

Thanks for your help.

Yes, that's what the doctor advised it sounds terrible though and I hope he doesn't do it again - I don't think my heart can take it!

Thanks for the toy and playing advice. I'll pack everything up tomorrow 

[labrodyk]

so today's morning mood was a LOT better despite the fact we had an EW for the first time in a week! the nap was the same as yesterday and so was the irritability by 5.30/6 which is when the crying, screeching in highchair and bath started. Once he's had his milk in the lounge room he's off like a rocket again (i'm assuming we've hit a bit of an OT wall).

EAS today:

WU: squeal at 5.52! then chatting, squealing & happy from 6.30
OOB: 7.00
Nap: 12.26. Asleep 12.30 and happy squeal from 1.56! Lay quietly until 2.20 awake
BT: 6.55. Asleep 7.20 but was squealing and chatting for a little while.

When I cuddle him before laying him down in his bed he grinds his teeth a lot. When I checked on him at 7.20 I thought he was still awake but he was grinding his teeth again in his sleep! I know the canines are still coming down so could this be why he's so irritable towards the end of the night or OT or a combination of both? He really has me so confused atm!!

Thank you Anna for the toy advice, it really seemed to work well today with just a toy or two out. I've put today's toys away and brought out a couple of different ones for tomorrow!

[labrodyk]

Another early wake this morning - closer to 5.30!!! Has dozed and chatted on/off until 7!

Should I put him down earlier today or stick to 12.30? Just seems too long an A time..

[Buttonbobs]

It depends honey - are you doing fixed times or are you trying to follow an A time?

Perhaps try an earlier catch up nap and see how you get on. Be prepared for a short nap and a longer afternoon.