15mo - routine disappeared - NW + SER!

[labrodyk]

Hi ladies!

I think I'm driving myself crazy with the term "sleep". Without a video monitor I have taken to keeping DS's door ajar and peering in through naps (which have always been short). He seems to wake at sleep cycles from the first cycle of deep sleep but never fall back to that state. He rolls around sucking his finger/comforter with his eyes shut for the remainder of his nap OR lays there completely silent but awake.

Do I just close his door and wait for him to chat or cry out for me and base his "nap" duration on whatever that is? OR should I continue watching and trying to figure out why he only does an hour or so?

The only reason I'm so obsessed is because he's MISERABLE through the day and I'm trying to find answers.

What do you guys do? Thanks in advance.

[becj86]

Can you post his routine? There is a pretty massive sleep disturbance around 18 months.

[labrodyk]

hello becj86!

I have another post (6 pages long now which started back when he was 15 months) I've been posting in our current routine with Naomi's help. It's here: 15mo - routine disappeared - NW + SER!
We have ALWAYS sturggled with sleep but this 2-1 has been going on now since 11 months. To say I'm tired, snappy & completely overwhelmed is an understatement. I feel it's really hurting my relationship with my hubby too because I've just become obsessed with trying to fix it.

Today he went down at 12.10 because he was so tired he just sat in his high chair and cried through lunch. He'd been crying, whinging, screaming & fussing ALL morning which is no surprise after the long NW we had early morning (see post). He started chatting at 1.45 but I know he was 'awake' earlier than that.

Any suggestions?

Cheers,
Laura

[becj86]

Hi,

Just a couple of things to consider:
* Could he have some kind of allergy (food or seasonal) causing him some issues? Dark circles are often an indicator of that in our house.
* What are your ideal BT/WU? By this age, a 12hr night and a 2hr nap are not really compatible - he likely doesn't need that much sleep unless he's high sleep needs.
* Canines take a long time to come through and do hurt until the whole width of the tooth is out. L took 5 months for his canines to come through and was pretty miserable for a lot of that time, even with meds.

How did you get to one nap? Did you always have one long nap (over 1.5hr and not capped) or did you have 2 even-length naps and then drop one? I ask because if you had two 45min-1hr naps and dropped one, he may just not be in the habit of taking a long nap. Typically at this age, you'd get a 2hr nap and an 11hr night.

How is he if distracted - taken out to a park or something where there is plenty going on and he's in control of the agenda (as much as is safe)?

Waking in the early morning (between 2 and 4 or so) and struggling to get back to sleep is quite often related to teething. It is also often related to the nap being too close to WU, so pushing the AM A time could well help with both nap length and the wakings in the night.

There's a massive amount of developmental stuff happening leading up to 18 months - the clingy behaviour is pretty typical for this age in the face of this development and the teething.

[labrodyk]

thank so much for the response...

* I was wondering about allergies and have actually wondered about them since he was born. he's been fussy and upset most of his life, but no doctor or paediatrician has ever taken me seriously or even considered it because he had no 'physical' symptoms just what was considered "behavioural".
* To be honest, my ideal BT/WU is whatever makes him happy during the day DYKWIM? Nap length I wouldn't get so hung up on if he wasn't so miserable. I'm aiming for a 12 hour day because he's seems so exhausted with a nap at 12.30 but lately that seems like it's too much and he's only "quiet"/"sleeping" for max 1.5 in the day and then finds it incredibly difficult to make it to a decent bed time.
* Distraction works sometimes and we did that with him today but he keeps coming back and whinging or clinging to us crying.

1 nap came about because he simply refused to take 2 and it was driving me insane. He's never been a mammoth long napper but his mood has always been my focus for his sleep needs. eg. if he's grumpy, fussy and a complete pain in the ass, then I assume he's tired and needs more sleep but I've never been able to get him to take more sleep. Our naps were of 1.5 hours and a catnap in the arvo when it was working well, but then things fell apart before 12 months and he wasn't consistently taking either of them. To save my own sanity we just moved to set naps starting at 11 and working our way towards 12 in quite large bounds because the EW was killing us (again, he's always been an ER).

* Teething - will be the death of me. Another canine broke through today and no amount of medication seems to assist the nap length or sleeping. I'm also scared of over medicating for weeks on end (which I've done in the past). We have one more to cut through the gum which I'm hoping will be soon.

I feel so defeated and I'm giving answers that sound like I'm not trying but I am and I've been waiting and trying so hard to enjoy my child now for 17 months and I can't get things right. I really thought I deserved a break and a chance to be with my son. As it stands, I'm thinking of going back to work because we're both sick of each other it seems. I don't want that but I'm about to lose my mind I think

[BeeAnn]

With my DD I have always counted her sleep time as when her eyes are shut.  Does he definitely not go still again after that first sleep cycle?  Quite often my DD will have a deep sleep then wriggle / roll around a lot and sometimes even chat or open her eyes for a few minutes and then go back into a deep sleep and stop moving.  She does that in the morning too.  I assumed it was just a light sleep phase.

Sometimes when she is in that phase if she cries out a little or is having a hard time settling back down then we just 'reset' her - go into her room, and move her back to the bottom of her bed on her side which is how she likes to go down to sleep (either by picking her up and moving her or literally dragging her down the bed!)  that quite often seems to help her.

Also, do you think he could be miserable during the day for any other reason e.g. being sick or teething?  Or even bored!??  I only ask because my DD is about your son's age I think (15 months) and she is teething at the moment - her canines - and has been really grumpy and acting tired all the time like wanting to lie down on things but I think it is just a comfort thing.  At least I think it is her teeth!  I often find that taking her outside like to the shops or park really helps calm her down or perk her up - a change of scenery or something.

[becj86]

It doesn't at all seem like you're not trying xx

I went back to work at 9 months because I couldn't hack it so you're doing a load better than I did
It really is tough when you're not enjoying your LO. Hugs

Have you looked into reflux and food allergies on the reflux board? Those ladies are a fount of knowledge and they be collectively been through so much they know a load more than your GP is likely to. I think you should trust that MI that something's not right. Teething can worsen reflux symptoms and I know he's at an age that most LOs aren't troubled by it any more but worth looking into.

IMO, if he's getting as much sleep as he is, regardless of the nap being short (it will get like that eventually in the 1-0 anyway), it's probably not quality sleep. Given you're talking about the sleep not being deep and him struggling to get through transitions, I think there's something to this niggling feeling you have.

[Buttonbobs]

Hi guys, these are some fantastic points Bec, I too think you should go with your gut honey if you feel something is not right.

There is a huge amount affecting sleep and mood at this age, teething and developmental stuff too, but if his sleep is poor there could be another contributor and it is definitely worth getting this checked out.

Also, as Bec has said, those longer NWs could be because he is getting enough sleep, just not necessarily in the right pattern to help him feel properly rested and cheery during WUs. You are right to pay attention to his mood, at this age this is often very indicative of a need to change something.

Hugs honey, you are doing a great job, I went back to work at 14 months and that was the start of a hard patch for sleep for us too. Don't beat yourself up for wanted some time for you. Are you able to get a break at anytime, can you leave DS with someone else for a few hours and go and do something relaxing by yourself for yourself?

[labrodyk]

Thanks everyone for your help - I really appreciate it.

So, I can't work out what I'm doing wrong now! I pulled the nap right back to 12 yesterday and he was "quiet" until he started chatting at 2! Put him down at 7 and he was asleep within 30 mins. BUT he woke at 6 happy as anything when we'd previously been getting 6.30/7 wake on the short 12.30 nap! He was rubbing eyes and visibly tired at BT. He didn't cry or anything either, just lay quietly until he drifted off.

He's been so out of sorts and tired that I though pulling the nap back would be the best thing but now I'm confused

Thanks
Laura

[Buttonbobs]

To be honest two hours of rest at lunchtime followed by an 11 hour night sounds pretty good to me. It is of course still possible that the grumpiness is due to teething and development and he actually just doesn't need so much sleep. Moving the nap back to 12.30 has led to the later WUs but you will probably need to move BT later too.

Or the catch up worked and he slept well and then after a good night go back to the later nap?

[labrodyk]

I'm pretty happy with what he did but I'm assuming the 2 hours is a once-off catch up and I'm not sure whether to do 12.30 or 12 today? I have 2 scenarios:

The earlier 12pm nap USUALLY is 1.5 hours max which means a 6.30 bedtime and perpetuates the ER
The later 12.30 nap has been too late and making him OT so 1.5 hours with a 7pm bed and seems to extend the nights.

If the nap was longer at 12 (12-2) or 12.30 (12.30-2.30) should bedtime be at 7.30 instead?

What do you feel would be the better option? With teeth and development playing a massive role I'm just so unsure.

It's 8.30am here so if you have a sec to get back to me before nap time that would be lovely!

Thanks,
Laura

[Buttonbobs]

Personally after a good night I'd go for the 12.30 nap and then do a later BT if you get a long nap, just like you've suggested.

HTH xx

[labrodyk]

thanks so much Naomi!

Well I can't quite work Harry out. We popped him in bed just before 12.30pm but he was excessively yawning and putting his head down on his highchair at 12. He's also not eating (barely a mouthful!) of anything which is really unlike him. This is been happening for quite a few days now...

With the 6am WU (OOB at 7am) and 12.30 nap that's 6.5 A but then when he was sleeping around 11.5 hours at night (7.15/20 - 6.40/7) I was putting him down at 12.30 too. He's not consistent from day-to-day which makes finding the right nap time, nap length, bedtime and WU extremely difficult because his mood fluctuates day-to-day also so i never know what's working and what's not.

I'll let you know the nap goes but if think I missed he window so is likely to be short.

ETA: Into bed at 12.27 quietly. Not sure when fell asleep but moaned at 1.52 and then restless until talking at 2.14. I don't know how long you'd call that "sleep" will do 7pm bed. Perhaps 12 is better but rather than doing the 6.30 bed I was doing, push it out to 5.5 A (so 7pm) if he still does the barely 1.5 hours?
Would love your thoughts cause I feel like I'm going around in circles!

I'm also hoping that the no-eating thing is temporary and teething related. He's had some dinner tonight but picked out all the veggies and meat (which he usually demolishes) and just nibbling on spaghetti...

[Buttonbobs]

No eating could well be teething related, but It could just be that he is too tired by that point. What about doing a slightly earlier lunch - say 11.30 and then this goes you time to put him down earlier if you feel he needs it.

There are probably two ways of approaching this one nap thing:

1. Fix a nap and BT, nap can be earlier or later by up to fifteen minutes and you can also set BT which can be earlier or later by up to half an hour. The idea of fixing is that it allows you to let go of the worry about A times. Perhaps if you feel better about his sleep it won't feel so overwhelming generally. I now for me going for a fixed nap was a really positive step at this age. I just stopped worrying anymore, like I was offering the opportunity for sleep and then it was up to E to actually sleep. It was her job at that point and this thought really helped me.

Or

2. Try and find the right A time which will then shift the nap and BT depending on his WU. From what you have said 6hrs would sound like a good starting point for a morning A time ad see how you get on.

Personally if I were mum I would go with the set nap. I know it's scary to shift from thinking about A times as suddenly he could be doing 7.5hrs A or 6hrs A depending on WU, but it does allow him to start to self regulate. Perhaps he'll take a longer nap and a shorter night one day or a shorter nap and a longer night another day.

What do you think?

[labrodyk]

Hi Naomi,

You make absolutely perfect sense, I just don't know what times to do? Especially since the naps are so unpredictable and short and I hate EBT because he wakes up earlier in the morning but then that puts us in a vicious cycle of him always being OT.

Tonight he's taken 45+ mins of laying quietly before actually falling asleep so I'm definitely not doing something right!

What do you think about sticking to 12pm nap and 7pm bed regardless of wakeup or how long the nap is? Will that make him even more OT? If wakeup is closer to 7, is that long enough time for him to nap?

Can you please tell me also what I should classify as sleep? Anything where he's "quiet" even like tonight when I watched and saw him still awake?

I'm sorry, I'm just so confused and really discouraged I still haven't got this right after so long