How long does lo's nap schedule last before it changes again?

[centrestage88]

I know that lo's nap schedule always changes but it isleaving me overwhelmed. I don't know when to change it. I used to put him down following sleepy cues ard 2 hrs  but now at 5 months, his sleepy cues are going and his naps have shortened to 45 mins.  do I just follow the average A times for a 5 month old?  I read that it is abt 2.5 hrs now?

He gets fussy ard 2 hrs but if I carry him or play with him he becomes happy and can stay happily awake for 3-4hrs. How come he doesn't show signs of being OT?

[creations]

Fussiness at this age could be two (or more) things other than being ready for a nap.
- LOs can get into the habit of going for a nap at a certain time, so they ready themselves for the nap even though they are not thoroughly tired. If LO is put down for the nap early this can lead to a short nap.
- LOs can show fussiness when they would like to change activity, remember your baby doesn't have many ways to communicate yet, fussing can mean 'please move me' so playing with him makes him happy again.

WRT the A time extending to 3-4hrs. Mine was always on the higher end of A times, more like a baby who was older.  It's certainly possible that your baby can handle a 3hr A time and then take a nice nap.

Taking into account your current level of anxiety and that naps are raising your anxiety level, I would suggest picking a 3hr A time and just sticking with it regardless of short or long nap.  If OT begins to build up then your baby will take a longer nap.  Some parents find set nap times offer a greater sense of the days routine, perhaps this would be an option for you?  Then regardless of WU time you would put LO down at the same time every day - what do you think?
There are many babies on set nap times (for whatever reason) who are well rested.

Due to our family circumstances I used A times (and increased as needed) for the first nap of the day but the second and third naps were more towards the 'set nap' sort of routine (and both in the car) although I would say I was neither working totally with A times nor totally with set naps - I worked with what worked as a compromise taking everyone's needs into account and doing the best I could do.

[centrestage88]

Thks creations. If I were to try put him on a 3hr A schedule, does it mean that I will be looking at a 2 nap schedule for him?
 i tried him on a 2.5 A schedule
Day 1 and 2:
3 naps : 1hr( woke up crying) 1hr( crying),  0.5 hr( I capped the last one and woke him up at 530pm) so that he would go to bed at 730pm)

Today though he napped so weirdly. 2.5A schedule
2 naps: 1hr( woke up crying), 2.5hrs( woke up happily at 2.5 hrs and sucked his fingers for the next 45 minutes. Would have happily continued to suck fingers but I went in to pick him up cos it was feeding time)
Bedtime: 730pm ( v sleepy )

If he wakes fr a nap at 2.5 hrs but lies there happily without fussing for the next 45 mins do I count the nap as 3hr 15 mins or 2.5 hrs?

[creations]

I am cautious to contradict advice you may have received on other threads wrt sleep routines. There are many ways a baby can sleep, set naps is just one of them. My thoughts were that this route may help to reduce your anxiety some or at least help towards a predictable routine for you.

A set 3hr routine would look something like:
WU 7
A
nap 10 - 11.30
A
nap 2.30 - 4.00
A
BT 7pm

Please bare in mind this is based on a LO doing a 12hr night, some don't do 12hr nights (mine didn't), I would need to know a little more about your LOs routine/habits to know if this was suitable.  The naps would be at set times regardless of 1hr sleep or 2.5hr sleep so although in the example above I have shown 1.5hr nap for both naps this is not something you would worry yourself over.  Similarly the naps remain set at the times regardless of morning WU time, so if baby woke at 6.30am one day you would still do nap at 10am, if baby woke at 7.30am the next day you would still do nap at 10am.
With set nap and BTs you can still vary the time a bit based on how baby is that day and cues you are picking up on but the focus is on you knowing when you are aiming for.
This sort of routine does not suit all parents, there may be a worry of baby becoming OT however if you do a regular wind down and regular naps at the times your baby will soon learn these are the times to sleep and will sleep to his needs.  It really can work and does work for many. Even on BW where we mostly try to follow EASY there are circumstances where set naps are used.
This sort of routine can also be really helpful for asking others to care for your baby. You don't have to give them a mile long list of if he wakes at x then nap at y or if he wakes at a then do b...you can tell them a nap time and leave it at that. This may offer you more chance of a rest or to get out for some Y time, a jog or breath of air, an appointment etc.

WRT the times you give above I'd say the 1hr nap sounds UT, baby is tired enough to fall to sleep and even transition into a second cycle but not tired enough to sleep a fully restorative sleep.
By the second day you show he has likely built up some tiredness which has allowed him to take a lovely long nap.  You really don't need to scrutinise every nap length, your baby is showing here he can sleep 1hr or sleep 2.5 when he needs it. let that give you confidence in his ability to take to his needs.

If he wakes fr a nap at 2.5 hrs but lies there happily without fussing for the next 45 mins do I count the nap as 3hr 15 mins or 2.5 hrs?

After a 2.5hr nap I would just get him up, it's plenty long enough.

I hope this helps.
Many hugs for today x

[centrestage88]

Thks creations for the suggested plan. I really respect all advice that all you lovely ladies on this board have given me. Yes, they are all different but I am very grateful for the time and effort that all of you are giving me. Like everyone has told me, all babies are different, and I will try to incorporate the advice that I feel will work best for my situation and baby.

A really busy day for me and I've just finally had time to check the Internet. Baby slept surprising well today though! I hadn't expected that.

Will write back tomorrow!

[creations]

It's sounds like you had a better day That's good to hear.

[centrestage88]

thanks for the =) creations.

yesterday baby slept amazingly. i dont know what happened. my family came over and tired him out perhaps. I expected him to be overstimulated but he went down for all naps and bedtime almost immediately.

Lo is currently 5 mths 2 weeks.

Re the 3 hr schedule, wouldnt that mean that lo feeds before napping? Isnt that what we are supposed to avoid?
Also, would the 3 hr schedule be backtracking? Lo is currently on a 4hr schedule and doesnt cry for food in between. Yesterday, he went 5 hrs and would have gone longer had I not woken him up to feed and so that he would go to bed on time.

Since  beginning of 4 months, he has been on a 4 hr day feed schedule)
Bedtime fixed at 730pm. WU:730am. (12hrs including 1 night feed 4-530am)
total 5 feeds a day.

Yesterday, he only had 4 feeds the whole 24 hrs day.
Last night, he STTN fr 745pm-715am. ( amazing!) and wasnt even hungry when he woke up. He wasnt even hungry when I fed him at 8am!

Yesterday: ( but atypical day as my family was over the whole day)
WU: 715am ( i picked him up at 730am . he was playing happily by himself)
E: 8am ( after his shower)
nap: 945- 1145 ( i picked him up at 1215. he was playing happily)
E:1215pm
nap: 240-510pm ( I had to wake him up! so that he would zzz at 730pm)
E:510pm
BT: 740pm

STTN (!!!)
 
today:
WU: 715am ( played happily. picked him up at 730am)
E: 8am (after his shower)
E: 9am (he wasnt hungry but I offered him the breast as I was afraid he would be hungry as he STTN) (on hindsight, am wondering if this feed was necessary?)
N:945am-1150am ( currently still napping!)

Do you think a routine like this is possible?
Where to space his feeds? (you mentioned 3hrs. Lo can go at least 4 hrs and even longer though. But if with the 3hr A time, sometimes time between the feeds can go up to 5 hrs. will he be too hungry and that will interfere with his sleep?)

I would like him to STTN if possible. ( but 1 NF is not a problem)  but is it possible to STTN with 4 feeds during the day? ( and will it affect my BM supply?)
His doesnt reach for things and he cant sit up yet, so i  dont know if he will be ready for solids at 6 months.

WU:730am
F:8am
N:10am
F:? (12moom)
N: 230pm or 330pm?  (I have to leave at 245pm-315pm to pick my niece up. My mum is at home and can help me look after lo during this time)
F:? (4-5pm dpd on when he wakes up)
F and Zz: 730pm
NF: up to him

I hope Im not writing too much and making things too confusing.

[creations]

I think I may have confused you with saying a "set 3 hr routine".  I do not mean back tracking to a 3hr EASY which is based on feeding every 3 hrs. I mean set nap times which are initially set based on 3hr A time but then you stick to the set times for naps regardless of WU times and nap length, rather than a flexible routine where you keep working out A times throughout the day. The point of the set naps idea is to increase predictability in the day and (with hope) reduce the anxiety over sleep. I remember you mentioned finding the unpredictability of the day difficult.
So this routine then (which is just a guide) is worked out by giving 3hrs A time, but then *setting* the times so each day you do naps at the same time regularly rather than worrying when baby woke and timing the A from then. It means if he takes a 1.5hr nap you still put him down the same time for the next nap, if he takes a 2hr nap you still put him down the same time for the next nap:

A set 3hr routine would look something like:
WU 7
A
nap 10 - 11.30
A
nap 2.30 - 4.00
A
BT 7pm

WRT E times. The 4hr EASY is for roughly 4 month olds.  As baby grows feeding becomes more efficient (taking more milk in less time) which often enables them to go longer between milk feeds. It is perfectly normal for the E times to extend to more like 5hrs especially when the nap comes between and so baby doesn't feel hungry at 4hrs because he is sleeping and also because he likely took more at the earlier feed.  This 5hr spacing between feeds is something you are already seeing.  I need to add, not *all* babies can go 5hrs between feeds and those who can go 5hrs between some feeds may not be able to go 5hrs between every feed. Certainly when solids are introduced baby is eating far more regularly than before as solids meals come between milk feeds but the milk feeds may extend from 3 or 4 hrs up to more like 5hrs. And as baby approaches 10-12 months 1 or 2 of the milk feeds may be switched to a solids snack meaning that milk feeds no longer come at set intervals like they do for a young baby.

With that in mind then here is an option of set naps with the E times indicated:
WU 7.00
E 7.00
A
nap 10.00 - 11.30
E 11.30
A
nap 2.30 - 4.00
E 4.00
A
E 6.30/45
BT 7pm
But I must reiterate not all babies will go these longer lengths between milk feeds until they are a little older and until solids are introduced, this is why you may be advised on another thread that it is ok to 'top up' feed before a nap.  If your baby does not need or want the top up feed that is ok too, and from the routines you have posted it looks like he is happy to get a big feed and go the longer times between E, and also take some lovely long naps too!

If you compare the routine set out above (3hr A time but on set naps allowing for 1.5hr nap but the point is that it's fine if baby naps longer, 2hrs is fine) you will see it is almost identical to the routine you have suggested in your post (which gives a 2.5hr A time and a 2hr nap).

WRT STTN without a feed - it is absolutely normal for a baby this age to have a feed at night (or even 2), however if he sleeps and doesn't wake with hunger in the night then he is telling you his sleep is more important to him than getting a feed.  it's fine. Try not to worry.  Your body will continue to produce the amount of milk he needs. If you go some nights without night feeds that's ok. If he begins to wake at night for a feed again that's ok too, this could be a growth spurt making him naturally more hungry and the increased demand for feeds signals to your body to increase milk supply.

I know you are unsure about starting solids at 6 months. Here is a link to the WHO (world Health Organisation) guide. You will see they advise to begin solids in a *timely* manner, meaning at 6 months.
http://www.who.int/nutrition/topics/complementary_feeding/en/
A couple of weeks either way is unlikely to make any difference and really just allows for the individuality of your baby. I wouldn't hold off too long though. Offering one or teaspoons of purée or a piece of finger food is all hat is needed in the early days. Little tastes of things once or twice per day.

[centrestage88]

Thks creations. I have more questions that I hope you can help with!

[creations]

You're welcome. I am glad to help with further questions if I can

[centrestage88]

Thanks creations for the suggested plan.
 Are the E times fixed regardless if he wake up earlier than 1.5hrs? ( of course unless he in hungry)  Eg: he wakes up 11am instd of 1130am. Do I feed him at 11am or stick to 1130am?

How do I know if he needs a top up? What are the signs of a hungry baby at his age? Is rooting still a sign of hunger at 5 mths?

He woke up an hour for his morning nap and was crying. He was fussy and had to be carried( stopped fussing but wld start again if put down)I didn't feed him upon waking and fed him only half an hour at the scheduled time. How do I tell if he just was tired but could not get back to zzz or if he was hungry?

[centrestage88]

Now I'm getting anxious over feeding.
Wrt top ups: wouldnt top ups encourage snacking? I'm confused, cos baby whisperer mentioned that it would encourage snacking.
My lo seems okay with the long durations, but now I'm worried that he can't take it.


Now I can't decide if and when he needs a top up. And if he needs a top up will it lead to snacking. i don't want to offer him a top up if he doesn't need one as I'm afraid it will lead to snacking, yet I don't want to him to be crying in hunger. And I don't know if he needs a top up as I can't read him. I don't know when he is hungry or if he is tired.

I'm getting anxious again.

[creations]

I know it is easy for me to say try not to worry, and incredibly hard for you to not worry...but do try not to worry xx

The ladies on the breast feeding board are much better fixed to answer your feeding questions.  I was unable to BF so my LO was FF from 4 wks old. He could not transition to 4hr E at 4 months and remained on 3hr E until solids were introduced at which time he took *more frequent* feeds as he had his milk then 1hr later solids and right after the solids he demanded a milk top up. I think the milk top up directly after solids only lasted a few weeks but even so it meant something like:
E 7 milk
E 8 breakfast solids
E 8.30 milk top up directly after solids
E 11 milk
E 12 lunch solids
E 12.30 milk top up directly after solids
(nb these times are just example as I am not 100% sure if his E was 3 or 4hrs when he was getting those milk top ups either way though look how often he ate!!!) It felt like I was feeding all day long, I think I probably had a post about it seeming like he ate way too often and was this snacking - turns out this is all totally normal And now I see heaps of feeding threads I know just how normal it all is.
I've also seen enough threads to know that many mums do a top up just before a nap because of where the E and S sit in the routine and it would end up being too long between E for their baby. I did not do a top up before nap but bare in mind at 5.5 months I was still doing 3hrly E which I had to fit as best I could around nap times.

The thing is, this is just what happens as baby gets bigger. The naps move, the eating moves, they may need a top up, it won't necessarily become snacking and it doesn't need to lead to a feed to sleep prop either. If you think baby is hungry feed him, if once he falls to sleep on the breast after barely a sip this is not a prop, if twice he does this it is not a prop but perhaps a signal that he is not hungry then so you don't need to continue it.  I do not think at this age your baby will start snacking, the advice about this is more to do with younger babies who are given a feed at every cry rather than stopping to consider if baby would be hungry, tired or want a cuddle.

WRT your question about the E times above - it is only an example, a guide. You do not need to make baby wait if he is hungry. As a guide I would feed every 4hrs so if he wakes at 40 mins it is unlikely 4hrs have passed since his last feed, maybe wait a little while, if he wakes at 3hrs it will be more like 5hrs between E I would feed right away. In your example then if he wakes at 1hr nap and it has been 4hr or more since E then feed him.
The routine does not need to look strictly like EASEAS, EASAEAS is fine, the point is to have a little bit of A between E and S for most sleeps.

I'm afraid that babies are ever-changing, ever-growing beings which don't come with a manual. Every one is different and every one has their own character, their own ideas about eating and sleeping and their own ideas about how much/long/loud they cry.  Routines help immensely, so you know roughly where you are in the day, but don't be ruled by a routine, or ruled by times, remember the routine is there to help you, not to give you more anxiety.
Your baby knows you love him, he knows you are attending to him the best you can, if his food comes a little late or a little early he is not going to suffer dramatically. If his nap comes a bit late or a bit early he is not going to suffer dramatically.  You are a caring and attentive parent, please allow yourself to believe this.
 

[creations]

How are things now?

[centrestage88]

My fears prevented me from trying to get him strictly on a set routine, but I try to get him as close to the set routine. I stick to a 3hr A schedule and sometimes stretch his A times to 3hrs 15 mins to get to as close to his set nap times. Thankfully he has adjusted pretty nicely and has naturally somehow fallen into the schedule.

I upped his feeds to 5 day feeds after much consideration. He still wakes up for a NF though, despite the additional day feed. but I gladly feed him.

WU:730am
E: 8am
Top up: 10am
S: 1030am (1.5-2hrs)
E: 130pm
S:3/330 ( 1.5-2hrs) he has to be up latest 5pm else he won't go to bed at 730pm.
E: 430/5pm
E and S: 730pm
NF: 1

Thanks ladies!:)