Cold turkey to 1 nap - OT disaster - & now resisting 2 naps aarrrgggghhhh!!!

[clairebear79]

Hiya - We're in a bit of a mess really!  Yesterday we stuck with the same nap times as the day before & it went ok but EW again today 

Wake: 6.20   (great 11h 20 sleep, BUT he started stirring at 4.50am & was waking every 15mins crying out then resettling til 6.20am)
Nap:   9.30 - 10.00  (even though this is a shorter A I decided to risk it as he looked tired.  He settled easily)
Nap:   1.30 - 3.00    (TBH I think I maybe should have PD earlier as he was showing some tired signs at 12 midday.  Good solid nap though - we had to wake him at 3)
BT:    7.20           (PD at 6.50 but took him a long time to settle.  Coughing a lot so may be down to this - or OT/UT???)

Today:
Wake:  5.10am            (only 9h 50 sleep - why oh why )
Nap:    11.15 - 2.00     (2h 45 nap at nursery)
BT:      7.00pm

I really can't fathom what is going on here.  Its not like he's getting too much day sleep.  The EW has only started since we went cold turkey to 1 nap & he got OT.  So my gut tells me its OT that is the culprit here, but I am struggling to get him caught back up & out of the EW cycle.

Today he went to nursery.  I asked them to PD when he was ready, & if it was before 10am then they were to do 2 naps, if it was after they were to just let him sleep as this would already be 5hrs A.  They didn't PD til 11.15 & so he slept 2h 45mins. 

So yes he did a great nap, BUT only b/c the A before it was so huge.  This left us with a predicament about BT, b/c he needed enough A time after that huge nap to make sure he wasn't UT at BT, BUT he had already done a huge 6h 5min A time in the AM, so a long A to BT could potentially make him OT.  B/c I don't know what his A times are/need to be I am clutching at straws here - its a total guessing game.    He seemed quite happy, so we went for 6.45pm BT, he was asleep at 7pm.

I am a little scared he will wake early again tomorrow through OT, but am also scared he will wake early b/c he had too much day sleep today.  He averages around 13.5hrs sleep in 24, & he's already had 2h 45 today, so that only leaves 10h 15 for tonight IYSWIM   So if we get EW again tomorrow, where the hell do I go from here?  Doing 6hrs A time before his nap every day just isn't sustainable.  So do I cut it right back to say 4.5 or 4.75 & let him sleep & then try for a CN in the PM to get to our normal BT? 

It seems silly to persevere with the 2 naps now if he's just going to carry on EW.  I really thought it would help but so far it hasn't.  Or is it just that I need to spend a good few days cutting back his A times in order to help him get caught up again???  It worries me that bringing his AM nap earlier will just keep the EW continuing though - its a vicious trap to fall into & I have been there before & shifting his nap to 10am was what we had to do last time to stop him from EW. 

[Roseii]

Hi hun, I know this isn't what you want to hear but maybe you need to roll with these EWs for a while He is (currently) doing GREAT naps, and good nights apart from EWs. I know you had a 9.5 hour night but that isn't the norm is it? I fear you'll just confuse him more and more if you keep trying to tweak...
Sorry that's not overly helpful I'll see if I can get more eyes on this xx

[~Sara~]

Hi Claire...mind if I pop in and offer my two cents?

The reason all of this is going on is because he is in the middle of a transition.  This isn't how it's going to be forever; it's an ebb and flow: 2 steps forward, one step back until finally, finally he's able to handle the A time that a one-nap routine requires.  His sleep needs are shifting, but his A times aren't ready yet.  It is completely normal for what's happening to happen.  It's normal for nighttime sleep to drop a little bit as they have more daytime sleep.  I would be very hesistant to say that a 9.5h night--during this transition with two naps--is an OT night.  He's waking earlier in the AM because he's getting too much daytime sleep spread out between TWO naps, not because he's necessarily getting too much daytime sleep, total-wise.  Does that make sense?

I think what you need to do is keep his A times where he needs them.  I know you're trying to figure it out still, but I wouldn't keep making his A times shorter.  That will only prolong this.

I think your options are these:
1) Alternate one-nap and two-nap days.  For example, he wakes up early on, say, Monday at 6am.  That's a 2 nap day, which preseves a decent bedtime.  He might still have a shorter night just because he got 2 naps that day, but an early bedtime does NOT work if LO is not a night sleep tacker-oner (how's that for a made up phrase? ).  That's exactly how my DS was, so our days got a bit long there towards the end, but it was the only way we could get through the 2-1 until his A times were closer to 5h.

So, he does a 2 nap day.  Then the next day, say he sleeps until his regular wake up time of 7.  That's a one nap day.  The next day might be another early day...so a 2 nap day.  And so and so on.

2) Like Shiv suggested on Page 1, you can keep the set one nap and APOP a catnap every few days to keep the OT from building up too much.

Unfortunately, we can't force their little bodies to do certain A times...though, some can handle a bit of a push to a point; but eventually, too much is too much and we just have to wait for them to be ready to finish the transition.  It sounds like your DS is able to handle longer A times (like the day he was put down at nursery at 11:15 and slept almost 3h), but just not every day.  That's a good thing!!  He's getting closer to being ready for 1 nap.

What really helped me--and granted, hindsight always helps--is to view the 2-1 truly as a progression and not so much a cut-and-dry deal.  DS did do okay once he got to the 1 nap and 5h A times on each side; but the consolidation/convergence of the 2 naps leading up to that point was hard.

I hope that helps you a little bit, or at least gives you comfort that you're not alone in wanting to pull your hair out. *hugs*

ETA: Thought you might enjoy seeing my 2-1 thread wondering what in the world to do with DS (before then, I hadn't really posted because I just accepted the longer days/short nights).  You are definitely no alone, hon!!
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=172745.0

[Truly Blessed]

Hiya Sara, this makes total sense and is without a shadow of a doubt exactly what is going on with Oliver.

(X)

(X)

[clairebear79]

Hi Sara - Thanks so much for that, it does make a lot of sense.  I shall enjoy reading your thread later too!  I do have a couple of questions though:

For example, he wakes up early on, say, Monday at 6am.  That's a 2 nap day, which preseves a decent bedtime.  He might still have a shorter night just because he got 2 naps that day, but an early bedtime does NOT work if LO is not a night sleep tacker-oner
So, he does a 2 nap day.  Then the next day, say he sleeps until his regular wake up time of 7.  That's a one nap day.  The next day might be another early day...so a 2 nap day.  And so and so on.

1) If I go with this, please tell me how on earth to make it work when every day is an early day     His regular(ish) WU time (if you can call it that) is around 6am.  We rarely get any later than 6.30am.  And obviously at the moment he is waking even earlier.  So where do I draw the line & say ok, he's waken up late enough to do a 1 nap day


2) If I keep offering an 'early' nap on a 1 nap day i.e. before lunchtime, it will always mean he has a really long A time to BT, which is more likely to lead to OT which may then lead to EW.  However, when he EW's it is almost impossible to get the nap any later.  So how do I get round this if he carries on waking early?  I realise the ultimate aim is for the nap to fall after lunch & this should help to prevent OT at BT & encourage a later WU.  How to get there

but an early bedtime does NOT work if LO is not a night sleep tacker-oner

3) I agree that doing EBT esp. on a 2 nap day is risky, esp as Oliver doesn't always tack on at night.  However, I also know that repeatedly doing 13-14hr days is really not a good idea as it will just lead to OT & misery.  So if he has woken 6am ish & we do a 1 nap day with nap at 11am, should I be bringing his BT much earlier than 7pm   I am so worried that pushing him at both ends of the day - from EW to nap & from nap to regular 7pm BT is  asking for trouble b/c he is going to get very OT - leading to more EW.  Doing EBT scares me as it *may* lead to EW, but then we are never giving him the opportunity to sleep longer if we keep pushing him all the time IYSWIM

Today for example, went:

Wake: 5.50am   (10h 50 sleep - following a 1 nap day)
A = 5h 10min
Nap:  11.00am - 1.30pm (at grandparents while I was at work today. I asked them to PD no later than 11am, or earlier if he needed it)
A = 5h 30min
BT:    7.00pm

He was quite happy right til BT but was verging on loopy & clearly very tired when we PD.  So just 2 days of 1 nap & the tiredness is creeping in again.  No surprises as he's done 2 very long days with huge A times.  I am thinking we maybe should have done 6.30BT here??? 

[clairebear79]

And today he woke at 5.30am, only 10.5hrs sleep.  Ugh ugh ugh!!!!  And that's after a 1 nap day.  So, it seems he EW's after a 2 nap day & he EW's after a 1 nap day.  I don't think he looks particularly well rested either, he's playing happily but has dark circles under his eyes.  It surely HAS to be either too much day sleep, or the day is just far too long???  2.5hrs+ of naps is A LOT for him, it really is. 

So what to do now?  If I just stick with a more suitable A time for him of 4-4.75hrs, he will be napping somewhere from 9.30-10.15, this is surely far too early to do a 1 nap day???  So I just AP a CN in the car later on, but what if he doesn't sleep (as he will often refuse PM nap if he's had a long AM nap)?  We can't do EBT as that would be 5.30 or 6pm, so we have no choice but to push him to be OT do we?  This just feels like a big nasty trap.  We're stuck with EW yet again & the clocks change in only 3 wks meaning 4.30am WU's will be on the cards if we don't have this sorted.  Gross! 

[Roseii]

((hugs)) I know you're not the only one dreading the clocks going back Tbh I think you need to plough on with 1 nap if you can keep the day to around 13 hours (so 5.30-6.30) and hope he does another 11 hour night...If you're needing to do more like a 14 hour day then do the 2 naps like Sara says. Personally I think 2.5 hours nap is great for his age and doesn't need capping...Tbh hun you really just need to ride this out for a week, stick to a plan and see where you're at, it won't fix itself straight away, but man don't we all know wish it would with these LOs
WHat did you end up doing today? x

[clairebear79]

Hiya.  Today went:

Wake: 5.30am
Nap:  10.15am - 12.40pm   (2h 25mins - BUT woke at 45mins & 1.5hr mark - resettled himself)
BT:    6.45pm                   ()

So, this morning he was shaking his head quite a lot at about 9am (tired sign), but same as usual, I thought - 'no I can't put you down yet, its too early' & so I kept him up for 4.75hrs A time.  He did play happily for the entire A time but was clearly rather tired when I PD.  He had 2 mid nap wakeups so I know he was already OT before his nap today.  Am I making a HUGE mistake here   Doing an early nap puts the fear of God into me b/c I know it can just encourage the EW, but how will I ever get him over his OT if I don't put him down when he is actually tired

I tried for a CN in the car this afternoon between 4.15-5pm but he didn't sleep.  We aimed for 6.30pm BT to keep us to a 13hr day, so I put him down at 6.15pm.  Took him 30mins to settle.  Clearly OT.  So, day 3 of 1 nap & even with a shorter A time before the nap, OT is starting to take hold.  How can I alleviate it though when he won't take a CN???  I suspect a 13hr day is even too long for him when on 1 nap.

I am seriously thinking about doing a 15min AM nap to get him through to his big nap after lunch although starting this from a 5.30am or earlier WU will be tricky.  Its the ONLY thing I haven't tried yet.

[Shiv52]

Personally I think 2.5 hours nap is great for his age and doesn't need capping...Tbh hun you really just need to ride this out for a week, stick to a plan and see where you're at, it won't fix itself straight away,

I agree with Charli.

The aim in the 2-1 switch is to get them to the stage where they are managing 5 hours + A time so whatever plan you decide on, if your over-riding aim is to get to  1 nap then you need to have a time in the day when you are pushing out those A times consistently.   His body clock needs a chance to adjust. 

I also agree with Sara then a 10-10.5 hour night in the 2-1 switch would not necessarily be OT and would be an OK nights sleep and he should be able to manage a proper amount of A time after that amount of night sleep.  And after a 2 hour + nap he should beable to handle at least that again. 

I think I would do:

Wake up (presuming 10 hours + sleep)
4.75 A time
Nap (2.5 hours + based on what he has been doing, I wouldn't cap)
4.75-5 hours A time  (more likely 5 hours is over 2 hour nap)
Bed 

That gives you a 12/12.5 hour day which probably isn't going to result in a 12 hour night with your DS yet.  I would do this for 4-5 days (if nap is short or if you think he is getting OT you may need to AP a CN and have slightly later bedtime on day 3 or 4 but that should combat any EW you may be having and lead to a better wake up.  And you will need the later bedtime to make sure he gets enough A time that day).  Then when he is used to that I would up the A time in the am to 5 hours in the A time for 4-5 days and the same in the evening. 

It is really tough I know  xx

[clairebear79]

Thanks Shiv.  I will try to keep with the 4.75hrs A for the next 4 days while he's at home with me & see where it gets us. 

I am only worrying about all of this so much b/c he is starting off from an OT & EW position.  I am CERTAIN there is OT at play here & this is the sole reason for him doing shorter nights all of a sudden.  We were generally getting 11-11.5hr nights before we jumped to 1 nap. 

I'll let you know how we are getting on in a few days time.

[Shiv52]

{{{{hugs}}}

There will be OT.  Like any transition I guess.  We'd terrible OT after dropping the CN and I think all the tweaking made it worse in the long term.  Only once I set the naps and went with it did it get better after a few weeks.  With one nap I went cold turkey and it was by far a much better transition after 3-4 weeks of getting used to the longer A times and riding out the OT. 

It will get better xx

[clairebear79]

I know I said I'd update in a few days time but UGH!!!!  That's about how I feel today.

He was up at 6am, 11h 15 night.  We did have several crying NW's, he resettled each time though.  

This morning he had HUGE bags & looked dreadful.  He was also excitable, squealing & a bit loopy & spinning round in circles pretty much from the moment we got up.  Does this sound like OS/OT behaviour to you  Can he actually be OT as soon as he wakes up after a fairly decent night's sleep

I almost PD at 9.15am for a short 15min CN but I put him in bed & after 10mins I wasn't convinced he was going to sleep so I got him up & stuck with the 4.75hrs A this morning.  It took him ages to settle & A time ended up being 4h 55mins, & he napped for just 1h 15mins.  I left him for a few mins to resettle as generally he will resettle himself & my going in will just disturb him more.  He didn't & then started to shout 'poo' down the monitor.  Changed his nappy & there was NO WAY he was going back to sleep.  He was wide awake & happy.

We've been out in the car this PM & he hasn't slept (which I'm rather surprised by) & he started being all 'loopy' again when we got home & then rubbed his eyes during a nappy change so I put him in bed at 3.40pm.  Nap attempt abandoned at 4.10pm - he just absolutely isn't going to sleep.  So even if I do EBT at 6 or 6.30pm thats still around a 6hr A time after a 1h 15min nap.  Its just too long.

WHAT IS GOING ON WITH THIS CHILD??  Does it sound like he was UT for his nap???  In my gut I don't think so - I am pretty sure he's horribly OT & so 'wired' he can't sleep properly.

Ladies I know you all keep saying to be consistent with him but how on earth do I proceed when I can't get him back to sleep or to even take a C/N if he short naps He just gets more & more OT with each passing day, which is what caused the EW in the first place.  

How can I EVER be consistent with him when his naps & WU's vary so much on a day-to-day basis, as surely what works as an A time one day will never work the next??? Yesterday he did a 10h 50 night followed by 4.75hrs A & did a 2.5hr nap.  Today an 11h 15 night followed by 4.75hrs A & did a 1.25hr nap.  

Where do I draw the line & say OK this isn't working?  My gut is still saying to me I should do the short AM C/N.

[clairebear79]

Today we have 5am WU.  10.5hrs sleep - & that's even after only sleeping 1h 15 yesterday & doing 6.25hrs A time to BT.  He is so so OT.  If I keep him up 4.75hrs A again that makes a 9.45am nap.  Surely that is far too early for 1 nap.  And you see what happens when I try to get a CN - it just doesn't happen.  He is so so OT - currently crying at 7.15am & we are in a right old mess.  I really can't see the wood for the trees right now & have no idea how to get us out of it.

[Roseii]

Claire I think you need to AP a morning cat nap, pretty much as early as he will take it-is that poss? I say AP (ie car) as it'll just be too mean to put him in bed then wake him 20 mins later! Then aim for about 3 hours A time after it (even less if he's a mess) and do the long nap..Whatcha think? X

[clairebear79]

Agree.  Had a talk with DH this morning & this is more or less what we agreed.  I am aiming for around 9am & I'm reasonably confident he will go down.  I'm not sure his PM nap will fall after lunch if I do it so early & only give 20mins nap though.  We shall see!