quick question about nap length

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Hello, sorry for the late reply  - I've been away for a few days without access to the Internet. What did you do in the end?  How are things now?

[AMJ]

Hi LL&J no worries.

I ended up giving her an uncapped nap and she slept for 1.5hrs and then she had a short night.
For the past 3 days I gave her a 30m nap and she had 10.5hrs nights. I tried waking her at 20m but she was in such a deep sleep that even the noise of cartoons and me rubbing her head and face didn't wake her. She woke up at 30m from the noise. She keeps waking consistently at 5:30am the latest so it's had to keep a 7pm BT. I'll try to wake her at 20m today again but then probably will try to give a 6:30 BT so her day is max 13hrs long. Any ideas on how to wake at from a deep sleep at 20m?

Gosh I just wish I could move her BT to 7/7:30pm and WU to 6/6:30am

[LovelyLilyandJack]

The only way I've had luck waking at 20 minutes is from a car nap where J doesn't seem to sleep as deeply (and I know exactly when he went to sleep), or by waking a few minutes before 20 minutes to catch him before he heads into a deep sleep.

What do you think about trying a NND, even with an early start?  We've had a few NNDs from a 5.30am start now (had one today in fact).  Jack has always handled them OK, and makes it to a slightly EBT, albeit being a bit touchy / grumpy during bathtime.  It often works as a means of resetting him, and it sounds like your LO needs some more NNDs but you aren't getting a late enough WU for them to happen naturally...?

[AMJ]

She won't nap in the car (weird, right!?) but waking few minutes earlier then 20m might work. Thanks.

With regards to NND I've tried giving them every other day, every 2-3 days but for some reason she was a mess at the end of the day and next day, and we had that 3:50am WU. I'm not sure why NNDs worked before and lately they don't but maybe it's because I can't get the right nap length after NND or maybe she is OS from being around so many family memebers and seeing so many new things. I will definitely give them another try.

Also a month ago or even longer she had a NND and stayed up for either 12.5 or 13hrs long and after had a short night. After that I'm trying to keep her NND 12hr long. But now that she is older maybe she could do it? Tbh she is not handling OT very well and doesn't tack on 

Thanks we will give NND another try

[AMJ]

P.S. Yesterday I managed to wake her at 20m but she only slept for 10hrs  the following night where with a 30m nap she slept for 10.5hrs, go figure

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Hmm.... It's hard to know what to suggest - it is strange that NNDs aren't working now. Unless that really early waking was a one off thing?  I can understand why you might be nervous to try it again, though I can't think what else to try.  Could the EWs be because you're away? We've just had a run of short nights cos we were away (he always EWs when we're away), and then J got OT from them, then UT cos I let him nap one day, which all prolonged it. 

Also... Seeing as you're properly into the 1-0 now, I wonder whether you might be better off starting a new thread specifically about 1-0 help?  I'm happy to continue to support you,  but you might get more people chipping in with ideas than on here, cos people won't read a 17 page thread, or know we're talking about the 1-0 now from the title. I only have one way to deal with the 1-0 and that's to keep the NNDS going at a steady rate, even after a short night if need be, and only to offer a very capped nap if I see J really needs it. I don't know if you ever moved her nap earlier but I'd do that too, and let her self regulate by refusing it every now and again.  But J handles OT extremely well and others will have other things to try for LOs who don't so well.

What do you think? As I said, I'm happy to continue to support you -  I just feel like I'm giving the same advice over and over and if it's not working then perhaps it's worth seeing if anyone else has anything to try?

[jessmum46]

I'm in kind of the same place really, very very happy to support you but I did the same with J and the 1-0, just set BT, kept up the NNDs and threw in a 20 minute CN here and there if she was struggling. 

My only other thought.....and please do ignore me if I'm completely wrong.......is just I have a niggling question about whether there is something other than routine encouraging those EWs  I mean, 10h in my mind is not sufficient night time sleep.  Always 10-10.5h was OT here.  There's no way either of mine would ever have stayed up from 3.30am without resettling, even if they had slept 10h already by that point.  I mean their body clocks just wouldn't have allowed it yk?  Do you think her short nights are habitual?  Is there anything, anything at all that you can think of that might be encouraging her to wake/stay awake?  I'm wondering if even the small amount of interaction you have with her when you go in is enough to make her wake and look for you rather than just going back off??

Do you wait until she really needs you?  What if you do silent WIWO, or at least just one key sleep phrase and straight back out?  No checking the diaper, that could be really stimulating.  Cover her in barrier cream before bed if that's a worry for you.  I'd cut the song too, songs are for bedtime not for NWs.  And have you got the gro clock out yet?

(((Hugs))), I know this has gone on a long long time x

[AMJ]

LL&J, EWUs could possibly be due to us being in a new place with so many family members around and so much fun stuff to see and do. We are not sure yet how long we will be staying at my moms but after that we will be moving to another province for good. Until then I hope she gets more used to all this chaos.

With regards to moving Her nap earlier, I don't really understand how that would be helpful, sorry.If she does fall asleep early for a nap that means that she will wake up early too and then that would make her last A longer then usuall so I would either have to give her an EBT(wich will shift her day even earlier) or she will get OT.

Katherine, it is very possible that her short nights are habitual. She's been having 10hr long nights almost every night since she was a baby. 10.5hrs nights are considered amazing here! With regards to me going in to her when she wakes,I only go in if its a NWU not an EWU usually unless she calls. This started few months back when she would wake up at night and poop at night but wouldn't call for me so I would wait for her to fall back asleep but she wouldn't. Then when I would eventually go in she would have a poopy diaper. So now I go in and check her diaper by just smelling it not taking it off. Or she was teething and I would go in to give her meds. Before that I never used to go in until she cried for me and she would still take a very long time to fall back asleep. Now it does seem that she calls for me right away during NWU or soon after she wakes if she wakes up crying. Then she might call again to ask for water. For the past 2 nights she's been waking with a cry in the middle of the night( once because she lost her bunny in the crib and the other time I don't remember why she called me cause I was half asleep, but she did). She ended up staying up for 2hrs one night and 1hr20m ish last night. Please tell me what should I say/ask when she calls me during NWU/EWU (not so much EWU, she usually stays in bed until I get her but sometimes she does call for me but it's very close to the time I get her up anyways)When I try to leave the room at NWU, I don't sing our song to her- she asks me to sing it to her by crying/whining. So I feel like if I don't it will take longer for her to calm down. The song is very short, maybe 30 seconds during NWU, for BT I sing it few times over and over so it might take 1.5 minutes. What would you suggest I say to her when she asks me to sing to her during NWU?

Another thing what might be waking her is the traffic noise in the early morning hour. We are by a busy road and at 4/4:30 the cars and trucks get very loud plus there is a busy intersection right by mom's house. I'm not 100% sure that that's what waking her but it could be since she always asks me" what's that noise and what's that noise, and I don't like it because it's too loud." She has a white noise on max in her room and two small fans going but the fans are made pretty quiet nowadays. But she used to EWU before we got to mom's house too.

LL&J and Katherine, I will start a new post then. Thanks so much for both of your wonderful help!

[jessmum46]

((Hugs)), I really hope someone has some insight for you, it is very draining to be up so early for so long.

I guess you have to trust your instincts on the NWs. I would say if you feel she settles quicker with the song and that doesn't increase the number of wakings or prolong them, then go with it. 

Good luck and still here with support whenever you need it xx

[LovelyLilyandJack]

Yes, good luck from me too.  I'll keep an eye on Sleeping for Toddlers for your new post to see if there's anything I can add to what the others are saying 

X

[AMJ]

Thank you