Author Topic: Support and Chat thread for parents of Early Waking Toddlers #2  (Read 159623 times)

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Offline DianaG

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Re: Support and Chat thread for parents of Early Waking Toddlers #2
« Reply #300 on: December 30, 2011, 09:23:47 am »
Hi Claire,
First, breathe!! It will get easier.

A few things you might try.

What if you did two shorter (1 hour each) naps instead of 1 2 hour nap? Before M went to daycare this was the best situation for him. He was tired enough to take a shorter nap after being up for about 3 hours. Then we'd take another nap sometimes as late as 3 or 4. Sometimes that was as short as 25 minutes. It didnt' keep him from falling asleep later. This was from the time he was about a year until 18 months or so.

Once he started daycare they kept him up until after lunch when they all went to sleep (around 11:30) and he would sleep as long as 3-3.5 hours.

M has always slept less than most babies. He's had 8-10 hour nights since he was about a year. He's 2 now.

Another thing to consider is a sleep training device. There is a thread on gro-clocks that has a lot of great information. The cheapest thing is to use a timer on a light and explain that when the light is off it is night time and time to sleep and only when it turns on do we get up. You can find clocks for this and of course the most popular is the Gro-Clock. We have both. We use the gro-clock to emphasize that we sleep when the sun is asleep. Then we have a monkey clock that we use to emphasize that when the monkey's eyes are closed we stay in bed and we don't get out of bed until the eyes are open and it is 'morning time'. Your little one is not too young to get these concepts and it really can make a difference. For me the best thing now is that even if M wakes early he stays in bed until the monkey wakes up. He calls me when he first wakes up, I go in to make sure that everything is okay. Then I tell him I'll be back in the morning when the monkey wakes up. I usually don't fall back asleep but that time laying in bed with my eyes closed is a godsend!!

One thing that helped me to reset M when things were really not so good was swimming. Swimming wears him OUT. I found that he would sleep longer and harder after swimming in the afternoon. This might be something to consider for a couple days in a row to help him get to sleep and sleep well and long.

The last thing I will share is that you might consider planning your ideal schedule based on what time you want him to wake up and how long he seems to need to sleep at night. This is what we do. I don't want to wake up earlier than 6. It was 4:30 for waaaay too long. We realize that M needs to sleep less at night than other kids his age, about 10 hours. So, if we want him up at 6 he needs to go to sleep at 8. Now, because he's in daycare and they set their schedule we work around that too. For us the EW and NW finally stopped (just recently) when we cut his nap from 3 hours to 2.

A lot of people will tell us that this is too little sleep each day for him. He is an individual and just won't follow the rules that others have decided are necessary for babies and sleep (lol). Since you can't force a LO to sleep longer, we make things work with his body's cycle and needs. You know your LO better than any book, so don't wear yourself out trying to get him to fit a model that he just might not fit into. Instead, listen to him and figure out a routine that works for all the members of your family.

Mostly, it will get easier. Hang in there and lots and lots of hugs!

Offline clairebear79

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Re: Support and Chat thread for parents of Early Waking Toddlers #2
« Reply #301 on: December 30, 2011, 12:48:31 pm »
Hi Diane.  Thanks so much for the reply.

We reached the absolute end of the road with 2 naps.  He wouldn't go down after 3hrs.  At best I could probably get him down after 4hrs but he will often chatter for ages with just that.  Also even after 4hrs A (5.30 WU, 9.30 nap, if I gave him a 30min nap, he'd go for another 4hrs before settling for a PM nap.  I tried shorter A times but he'd just chatter in his cot for over an hour so I knew we had to transition.  I probably should have done it a long time ago but I dragged it out as long as I possibly could for fear of OT.

I really don't want to keep with the 11am nap & EBT & live with the EW b/c I fear that as he gets older & needs even less sleep his WU will just get even earlier than it already is & we will be back in the land of regular 4.30am WU's.  We've been there before & its not fun for anyone so I really dont ever want to go back.  I got so so depressed it was horrendous.

However, I am totally willing to accept he may not sleep a longer night than 10.5hrs while he still has his DTN.  And like you rightly say, this means if I want a 6-6.30am WU he needs a 7.30-8pm BT.

I have already realised that for this reason, we need to shift everything later - that is why I started to push the nap out in the first place, but every time I try to do it we run into trouble with massive OT.  (seriously I've been trying to do this since September  ::)) Now he is waking even earlier & getting even less sleep than he was with the earlier nap/earlier BT.  And he is majorly OT.  Do I just need to hang in there a bit longer - keep doing the later nap & later BT until he starts to wake later???  Will this actually happen if he is OT ??? I think this is what I am asking.  Maybe I need to be more patient - it just a very hard thing to do while he is so exhausted b/c I feel like I'm ignoring his cues.

Ooh & do you think a groclock would work for O being 16months?  I like the idea - just wasn't sure if he's still a bit too young to understand the concept ???

Offline DianaG

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Re: Support and Chat thread for parents of Early Waking Toddlers #2
« Reply #302 on: December 31, 2011, 10:30:21 am »
I think he can get the concept of the gro-clock. It comes with a book and if you explain it and practice/play and are consistent with implementation, then he'll get it.

Try to think if there's any way to get some swimming or exercise to work for you. Maybe if you do some of this in the morning he'll be easier to nap? If you do it in the afternoon maybe he'll sleep a bit longer at night? Thus allowing for a bit later wake up and then you can push back nap and/or sleep.

Stay consistent without being rigid. He'll come out of it and things really will get better!

Offline clairebear79

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Re: Support and Chat thread for parents of Early Waking Toddlers #2
« Reply #303 on: December 31, 2011, 19:40:41 pm »
Hi Diane.  Thanks I'll consider that.  Re: exercise - we are already taking him outside for exercise in the day, to make sure he is properly tired.  I don't think its a lack of tiredness that's at hand here though per-se.  More that the nap was at the wrong time & BT was too early.   He usually goes down easily for his naps & BT - its only been since we pushed the nap out & he got OT that he started struggling to settle. 

Anyway, we FINALLY had some progress last night.  Yesterday he woke at 5am & then was on/off dozing until 6.30 (mostly awake though).  I held him out til midday for his nap & he slept 2hrs (had to wake him) & then aimed for 7.15BT, asleep 7.10.

This morning he woke at 5.15, chatted til 5.30, then dozed on & off til 6, then went back to sleep until 7am (we woke him to keep routine on track).  He's napped 2hrs today 12.05-2.05 & BT at 7.20.  So thankfully a much shorter day for him.  He's still very tired, & so I'm hoping today was the turning point for him in getting used to this new nap & BT.

Offline DianaG

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Re: Support and Chat thread for parents of Early Waking Toddlers #2
« Reply #304 on: January 01, 2012, 08:07:43 am »
Things will only continue to improve!

Offline clairebear79

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Re: Support and Chat thread for parents of Early Waking Toddlers #2
« Reply #305 on: January 01, 2012, 12:16:28 pm »
Thanks.  We had 11hrs last night, up at 6.15am.  Am hoping once he's used to the new times we'll get a solid 11hr night, otherwise I think it is definitely time to start capping his nap.  I'm all for him napping in the day, but I feel he's better getting a longer & more solid night's sleep than one which is broken with lots of OT wakeups, so if that's what I need to do I will do it.  I wouldn't be surprised - as I say he's LSN so I expect he'll be earlier than most to drop his nap.

Offline Khalam's Mama

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Re: Support and Chat thread for parents of Early Waking Toddlers #2
« Reply #306 on: January 08, 2012, 20:07:21 pm »
How are you getting on ladies?
We got a gro clock around this age and K did get the idea of it. Even if he called me in at 1st the fact that the clock said go back to sleep and not just Mama at least made him stay in bed and after a while I would hear him stir, see him look at the clock on the monitor and lay back down and then he would go back to sleep.
I agree you are doing well to be moving the nap later. the fact he goes back to sleep makes me think it has become a bit of a habit now. have you every tried w2s?

Offline clairebear79

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Re: Support and Chat thread for parents of Early Waking Toddlers #2
« Reply #307 on: January 08, 2012, 20:20:38 pm »
Hi KM.

Never done W2S - always been waaayyyy too scared of it!  He's such a light sleeper I'm afraid if I disturbed him just a bit too much he might wake fully.

Anyway am pleased to report a bit of progress.  We have now got our nap at 12noon for 2hrs & BT at 7.15pm.  For the last week he has been waking briefly between 5-6am but then going back to sleep & I have had to wake him at 7am.  He has however, been quite poorly with tonsilitis over the last week (recovered now) & has also started teething his 2yr molars (which are really bothering him), so he's been a lot more sleepy than usual.  I will be interested to see what happens with his WU once he's done with the teething, as I have a sneaking suspicion his WU will get a bit earlier again & I may need to nap cut, but am not even contemplating it until the teeth are through.

And I think if the EW return then I will definitely be buying a groclock.  Can I ask though - do they act like a nightlight & light up the room during the night ???  And if so do you find this disturbs your LO?

Offline Khalam's Mama

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Re: Support and Chat thread for parents of Early Waking Toddlers #2
« Reply #308 on: January 08, 2012, 20:33:06 pm »
You can set the brightness of the nightlight on the clock and the 0 setting is off. this does mean you can't see the stars but DS just knows to wait for his sun and is too young to count how many stars are left (indicating how long until morning) anyway.

Now might be the idea time to do the w2s if he is tired enough to sleep until 7am he should go back to sleep for sure. It might be worth getting him out of the habit before he gets better and isn't tired enough to sleep???

Offline clairebear79

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Re: Support and Chat thread for parents of Early Waking Toddlers #2
« Reply #309 on: January 13, 2012, 20:54:05 pm »
Hiya - back again!

So my suspicion was right - he's been better for a week now & his teeth don't seem to be bothering him either, and the nights are getting shorter.  Last few days:

09/1 WU:6.45    A = 5h 15    Nap: 12.00-2.00 (2hrs)       A = 5h 15    BT: 7.15
10/1 WU:6.45    A = 5h 15    Nap: 12.00-1.45 (1h 45)     A = 5h 25    BT: 7.10
11/1 WU:5.45    A = 6h 20    Nap: 12.05-2.05 (2hrs)       A = 5h 10    BT: 7.15
12/1 WU:6.45    A = 5h 35    Nap: 12.05-2.05 (2hrs)       A = 5h 15    BT: 7.30 (took ages to settle)
13/1 WU:6.00    A = 6h 15    Nap: 12.15-2.15 (2hrs)       A = 5h 15    BT: 7.30 (took ages to settle at nap & BT)

I really don't think this is habitual, b/c his WU is very erratic & can vary by as much as 1.5hrs day to day.  I have a distinct feeling its an UT/OT loop.  Possibly not enough A to BT leading to short night, leading to OT build up by naptime, causing mid-nap WU's & I'm having to wake him from every single nap at the 2hr mark, so he's not done napping, but I know this is only b/c he's doing 6hrs+ A time to nap most days.

Now I'm thinking of pushing BT to 7.30pm to give him 5.5hrs A to BT to see if this helps to give a longer night/push WU a bit later therefore making A time to nap a bit shorter.  But if this doesn't help at all, would you say I'm better to start nap capping (just a wee bit, maybe to 1.5hrs) & keep the day shorter, as opposed to having a really long day plus 2hr nap.  He really does look tired ATM & I can't help thinking its b/c his days are too long.  :-\

Any thoughts?

Offline Khalam's Mama

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Re: Support and Chat thread for parents of Early Waking Toddlers #2
« Reply #310 on: January 17, 2012, 20:57:02 pm »
We certainly didn't need 2hrs at that age. But if you cap his nap you need to be prepared to bring BT earlier at least until he gets used to it I think. How has it been going?

Offline clairebear79

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Re: Support and Chat thread for parents of Early Waking Toddlers #2
« Reply #311 on: January 17, 2012, 21:18:54 pm »
Hiya

At the end of last week we had more 10-10.5hr nights.  He is so so shattered from the long days too.  I've been deliberating over whether its OT or UT, but I think at heart I know its UT at BT causing short night causing OT from long days. 

Still, on Saturday & Sunday I did a 15mins earlier BT & it paid off with a longer night & on Monday morning we actually got a 7am WU! I stuck with the nap at 12.15 & he did 1h 45 naturally, so I know for sure that if he was waking at a decent time he would probably be capping the nap naturally anyway.  So....I decided to bite the bullet & cap again today.

We're doing 1h 45 this week & then I will push the nap out to 12.30 next week & cap at 1.5hrs i.e. 2pm WU.  Do you think a 7pm BT (5hrs A) is ok after a 1.5hr nap?  I'm hoping it might give us an 11.5hr night & then he can do 6hrs A to nap which I'm confident he will manage well, provided he is getting a longer night sleep.

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Re: Support and Chat thread for parents of Early Waking Toddlers #2
« Reply #312 on: January 17, 2012, 21:21:26 pm »
That sounds very reasonable. i agree the long days happen from UT but end up causing OT.

Offline DianaG

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Re: Support and Chat thread for parents of Early Waking Toddlers #2
« Reply #313 on: January 18, 2012, 07:50:15 am »
It sounds reasonable and well thought out to me.

We've had early WU again. Not so so so very early, only 5:15. I'd like him to sleep until 6, I just can't get it to work out. He is at daycare and they nap at 11:30 and he sleeps for 2 hours. Usually he wakes on his own, once in a while he wakes early and once in a while they wake him. If he sleeps longer than 2 hours then they have instructions to wake him. He goes to sleep between 8 and 8:30 pm, consistently. (If I put him to bed, it is closer to 8, when Dad does it, closer to 8:30). So, let's call his wake up 5:30 (although it is often a bit earlier than that). That means:

6 hr A, 2 hr nap, 6.5 to 7 hr A, 9 hr sleep.

I can't change the time he naps, 11:30. What do you think if I ask them to wake him at 1.5 hours sleep instead of 2? He doesn't have a problem falling asleep. I mean to say, he's tired enough.

On the weekends it is obvious to me that if he could, he'd nap earlier than 11:30, closer to 10 or 10:30 actually. I keep him up until 11:30 because it keeps his schedule consistent with daycare. He's good natured so this isn't a problem.

He does wake in the night but my husband takes care of it and I often don't wake up so I'm really aware of what it is like most of the time. Night before last my husband said that he WIWO 4 or 5 times before M resettled. Which is better than M being up for an hour or more, which is not unheard of. Last week he woke up at 3:45 once. Dad took care of him until I got up around 5:30 or so. We left for daycare early and I walked the long way so he got a good 30 minute nap in the pram before daycare, which ensured a good day and helped to keep him on schedule. He did fine that day.

We use a groclock. He understands the concept perfectly but doesn't seem to care. I mean, the other day we got up before the sun and he made us go back into the room to fix it so the sun was up. So he gets the concept, he just won't go back to sleep.

So what do you think? Shorter naps? It seems like we just shorted them to 2 hours, but I guess that was a few months ago. He's 2 years old now. The situation isn't dire. I'd rather be proactive now so as to avoid 4 am wake ups again!

Offline clairebear79

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Re: Support and Chat thread for parents of Early Waking Toddlers #2
« Reply #314 on: January 18, 2012, 08:41:54 am »
Diana - 11.30am set nap is quite early for a 2yo isn't it?  At my LO's nursery, even in the baby room 0-2yo they do nap at 12.30/1pm (although they will PD earlier if you ask).  Does the nap time at nursery change as they get older???  I just wonder if he had it a bit later whether it would help his WU a bit?  I think if there really is no flexing it then I think you have no choice but to try capping, but I think that's quite a long day for him with a capped nap so IIWM I'd prob be inclined to try a slightly earlier BT to avoid OT.  You can probably take that all with a pinch of salt though b/c my LO is younger!  And we've got issues of our own!

Ladies I need a bit of help here.  I'm pretty certain we've hit massive OT.  I had a sneaking suspicion that was happening last wk so I shortened his A to BT a few days ago & we got a longer night.  Then the last 2 days his nap has been 1h 45 but his nights have still been short & last night he took 20mins to settle at BT & we got a 10hr night.  The last few days went:

Sat: WU 5.35   A: 6h 30  Nap: 12.05-2pm (1h 55)  A = 5h 10 BT: 7.10pm
Sun: WU 6.10   A: 6h 05  Nap: 12.15-2.20(2h 05)  A = 5h 15 BT: 7.15pm
Mon: WU:6.55  A: 5h 20  Nap:  12.15-2.00 (1h 45) A = 5h 15 BT: 7.15pm  *woke himself from nap
Tue: WU: 6.05 A = 6h 10 Nap: 12.15-2.00 (1h 45) A = 5h 25  BT: 7.25 *we woke him from nap.  BTPD 7.05 but took 20mins to settle

Today, up at 5.35am.  No resettling him.  Its now 8.30 & he's laying down on me whining & rubbing his eyes.  He's been clinging to me like a limpet this morning & I feel he is massively tired out.

Ladies I think the initial cause of the OT was UT to BT, but I have pushed him so hard over the last month & no with capping the nap I fear OT has taken over.  His A time to nap is too long, but what else can I do to shorten it?  Do I have to force sleep deprivation by capping the nap until he conforms & sleeps a longer night?  Or do I do a much earlier BT?  Or should I pull it all back earlier again (both nap & BT) so he's on set A time instead of set nap & let him catch up?

I REALLY don't want to have to go back to 11/11.30am naps, b/c we were getting 5am WU's.  And it doesn't fit with his daycare situation.  It seems most of the mums who don't have EW have their naps in the afternoon, even with LO's of my DS's age, so why can't he do it???
b/c of the EW I think