Re: sleeping less and less - 16 mo off track

[Mashi]

I started giving quiet time the past week or so -- he was being tired and fussy at 1030/11ish and the one day that I did get him down for a morning nap it led to some chaos that night (as in, a 2 nap day).  But, he does really seem to need that time in the morning...so we do some quiet stories and chilled out time on my lap, sometimes in his cot with story books, etc. It seems to help him over the hump!

[mmom]

Oh boy, this is not going well, nor do I think it will be a good nap.  I gave him a quick lunch and tried to give him a bath, since it is needed.  He cried through the whole bath and wouldn't let me wash him.  He kept thrashing about and when I finally got him out, I had the same experience trying to dry and dress him.  He almost flipped off of the changing table again because he didn't want me dressing him.  Then as I was putting him in the crib, he attacked me by pulling my hair and biting me at the same time.  I wasn't about to freak out at a time when I need him to go to sleep, so I just put him in the crib and said goodnight.  Right now he is FREAKING out in his crib and I am sitting outside of his door talking to him.  But this has already been going on for 5 minutes and he is not calming at all.
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Oh, and we did have some quiet time around 10, only because I was sitting with him on the couch reading a book.  It wasn't intentional quiet time.  I guess I should assume he was not caught up and he is still OT given this behavior.  I wish I could play you a recording.  He is really out of control.

[Mashi]

We have been through this for a few days as well -- although he is sleeping well, I feel that I do know the freaking out you are describing because it is still ringing in my ears and my head still hurts where I've had my hair pulled.  I can say with 99% certainty that here, it is not OT or UT.  The first few days I assumed it was one, then we assumed it was the other, and no....I can not accept that it is either one.  It is a case of BED= NO FUN.  He does NOT want to go to bed. He wants to stay up and play. Or do anything other than what he is being told to do.  No no no no no.  I will not.  And then he crashes.   

Not sure if that would be some of it with your LO?

For me, though, tbh, I would rather he was OT or UT because then I could just tweak and change things to get rid of it!!

[mmom]

Well, while I am not happy that you have to deal with this too, it makes me feel better that I am not alone.  It did settle shortly after I wrote.  He was asleep at 11:40, which is 5 minutes shy of a 5.75 A.  So we will see.  Hopefully, I get good naps like you do.

[Mashi]

Well I am having the joy of listening to it right now, as it's bedtime. 

[mmom]

Oh, I am sorry!!!

It is 50 minutes into his nap and he is sitting up crying.  Why have these last couple of days been so horrible, when things were actually going well?  This is what happens to us over and over and over and over, etc.

[mmom]

We got no nap yesterday and a 50 minute nap today.  What am I going to do with this kid?  DH tried to get him back to sleep and was unsuccessful.  The worst part is my mom is watching him tonight.  I can't keep putting him down at 5:30 - he will start waking earlier and earlier.  Fortunately, my mom is an early riser.  I just hope she doesn't get NW'ings.

[mmom]

I really need some guidance.  I am feeling very discouraged!! My LO slept from 6-6 again last night.  Yes, I know that this is a good thing, but we are going on the 3rd nap with nap issues/refusal.  My mom said he was in great spirits last night and she almost didn't put him down at the time I suggested.  But she did and he did stir at 4 am, went back to sleep, 5 am, went back to sleep and then woke at 6 for good.  When I got to her house at 10:30, he was having a snack and looked exhausted.  His eyes were glassy and he kept rubbing them.  He really looked tuckered out.  I didn't know if all of the days of not napping were catching up to him.  After the drive home, he was practically asleep, so I just put him in the crib.  This was around 11.  I know this is only a 5 hour A, but he really looked out of it.  Well, of course he sprang to life as soon as he got in the crib and has been playing and silly every since.  It is now 12:30.  

OK, DH says that he is now sleeping.  12:35 - that is a 6.5 hour A.  What on earth is going on?  I know some moms with LO's this age are pushing to 6 hours now.  Are you doing this even if your LO looks shattered?  Yesterday, was horrible in that regard and then even though I pushed to 5.75, he only slept 50 minutes after.  I don't know why I am getting such nap refusal now.  What do i do?

[Mashi]

I've still not worked it all out in my head at the moment Kara....as you can maybe tell by this point in time I really like to analyse everything and come up with logical patterns so that I can say x=y and y=z so today do x!  KWIM?  And this is about the first age/stage I have hit where that is not working.

You ask if anyone is pushing to 6 hours when LO looks shattered....we are pushing to 5.5 here.  After too many days in the past 2 weeks of being determined that DS was exhausted and needed a short morning catnap, and having my hair pulled and eyes scratched out only for him to fall asleep easily at 5.5 hours and sleep for 2 hours, then I decided that no matter how tired he looks or how many times he yawns, I am pushing past it.  It's not something that I agree with, in fact, I think that it is the absolute wrong thing to do in a lot of ways - but I hold my hands up and say that it is what has started working so far. 

I am trying to settle on that it must be similar to when LOs are younger and you're getting crap naps in your 4 month old who is still only on 1.5 hours A time...and you say, but at 1.5 hours he's TIRED and he goes to sleep instantly, so it MUST have been the right time! But the reality is, it's habit that is causing him to be tired and fall asleep at that time....so perhaps my/your LO just needs to learn to handle that xx amount of A time, consistently every day. Maybe I mucked it all up somewhere on the 2-1 road and didn't extend the A times properly....not sure. But at the moment it is one of my ponderings.

The other thing I am wondering -- you say your LO is rubbing his eyes.  I know mine really does the eye rub when he is at the point of SO tired that I have to get him in bed soon.  Since say, mid-December, when things starting getting wonky with his sleep, I was convinced we had to go back to 2 naps because of all of the eye rubbing....and then I realised that it is VERY dry in our home with the heat on.  It started making MY eyes dry and itchy and I realised one day that I was rubbing them the same way DS rubs his eyes. And the dryness was making me tired - not so much me, but my eyes.  And I rubbed them a LOT.   Is there any chance at all that this could be a factor? Just something to think about, that's all.

FWIW we had a 630-630 night last night. I took him for his nap at 1125 despite his head shaking and protesting no no no no, and put him in his cot, sat beside him telling him a random made up story ... as I was saying "and then the little boy slept for two whole hours.." he started shaking his head no no no again and about 30 seconds later, was asleep. He slept close to 2 hours.   I am wondering if some of my problems are too long of a wind-down, and/or taking him in to bed too soon before I suspect he will sleep. Meaning, what I had been doing was about 30 minutes before sleep time, would start stories and what not, and then 10-15 minutes before I wanted/expected him to fall asleep I was taking him to bed.   Today I did stories 10 minutes before and took him to bed 5 minutes before....I have heard that spirited LOs need shorter wind downs so perhaps it is a possibility...again, just throwing things out there to you!!

[mmom]

I appreciate your thoughts Mashi.  I really do!!  DH was also wondering about how his eyes looked this morning in relation to my mom's dog.  He was wondering if our LO has an allergy to fur, because he has never looked this shot before after such a good night.  My mom has a huge sheep dog, who is very hairy, and all over my LO.  The dry air is also a possibility.  I never thought of that.  My LO also starts rubbing his eyes when there is an immediate need for sleep, which is why I thought it was necessary.

It is less than 40 minutes later and he is awake and crying out for us.  We now have 1 day of no nap, yesterday 50 minutes, and today 40.  It is horrible here.  No amount of AP will get him back to sleep either.

I also am wondering if I am putting him down too soon.  Today there wasn't much of a wind down, but he was in there for a while.  Maybe tomorrow I should just go for the 6 hours A and see what happens.  I just don't get how little sleep he is getting.  We are going to start getting NW'ings with this lack of day sleep and I am surprised we haven't already.

[Mashi]

It very well could be the fur...and allergies are grown into and out of, so just because he wasn't allergic before doesn't mean that he hasn't suddenly developed an allergy.  I babysat a family with a cat, regularly, and then started taking care of the children full time in the summer. Had never had a problem with the cat before until suddenly one day, it hit. That particular summer within about 2 weeks I developed allergies to a whole slew of environmental things...flowers, trees, grass, cats, dogs, etc. 

DS got a "cold" the day we put up the Christmas tree. So did I.  Dry eyes, runny nose, sore throat, cough, etc ...  miraculously when we took the tree down a few days ago (because I was convinced for both of us it was allergies) we were both better within about 12 hours. And his eye rubbing has stopped -- with the tree up the air was VERY dry, drier than normal, so I am not sure if it was the tree or the poor air quality.

Hope things improve....xx

[mmom]

They are getting worse.  My LO didn't fall asleep until 6:30 last night, despite being put down at 5:40.  He woke at 4:50 this morning.  It is 5:50 and I haven't gotten him yet.  But he is in there whimpering.  I am getting so discouraged, because if he won't nap, he is going to continue being OT, and we are not going to get out of this hole.  I really don't know what to do to make him sleep.

Do I still push for the 6 hour A this morning?  I feel like if he doesn't sleep again, I NEED to AP some kind of cat nap out of him.  We can't keep going through this!

[babybarr]

Huge hugs.  Firstly things here crazy too as you know DS been poorly.  BUT before that he started doing what your LO is doing.  Really really bad naps.  After going with a shorter A time thinking he must be OT etc I decided I was going to push the nap to noon, despite what time he woke etc.  I can't say I've done it yet or it has ir hasn't been successful but I decided after days of bad naps this was the only thing left to try.  I think if he is sleeping well at night then pushing the nap and seeing is worth a go. 

Good luck.

[Mashi]

Kara, are either you or your DH a lower sleep needs person?  (I suppose for you it would be how much sleep you needed before you got pg with your DS as I am sure that the past two years you've needed all you can get!)

I'm just asking because I've been doing more and more digging into how much sleep an 18 month old needs - I have always been a person who believes that people (not just LOs) need more sleep than we actually get, and the more sources you read the more different opinions you will find on what that optimal sleep is. Anyway, when you start looking, a LOT of sources do say that by 18 months toddlers need only 13 hours in a 24 hour period.  That is shocking to me because I feel it is closer to 14-15, but who am I to say!?

Anyway, I am just wondering, if either you or your DH needs less than 8 hours regularly of sleep, maybe your DS really only needs 12.5 - 13 hours of sleep in a day?  Do you think it's a possibility or is his behaviour and mood not good on that little sleep?

Just another thought, that's all.

[mmom]

DH regularly gets 7 hours of sleep - sometimes 8.  That is his norm and what he functions well on.  I am not sure if that is low or not.  It is hard for me to tell what my norm is.  I haven't slept well in years...lol.  When I had my LO and was working, I used to go to the gym at 4 am and I was in bed around 9.  I was always tired and dealing with NW's for the last 1.5 years and now being pregnant, I don't feel rested unless I have more than 8 hours.

I do know that my LO is a low needs toddler.  He has proven that since birth.  My EASY routines have never been what they are "supposed" to be.  Granted we had issues, but even when they were better, my LO still never slept as much as others his age.  I have been thinking lately that he needs 12.5 hours in a 24 hour period.  Before we got into this hole, he slept 1.5 hours during the day and 11 hours at night and was totally rested and happy. 

So knowing that, what do I do?  He has been fine despite not napping, but I think last night was evidence that OT is setting in.  Taking 45 minutes to go to sleep after sleeping 40 minutes the whole day and then waking at 4:50 (just shy of 10.5 hours), tells me he is OT.  We have been getting longer nights with these short naps.  But I don't know how to even attempt to set up his day.  I would rather he not have a 12 hour night, if he won't sleep during the day at all.  It makes me feel like I need him in bed at 5:30 when he does that.  I REALLY don't want a 5:30 bedtime for my toddler.  So where do I go from here?