18 month sleep regression support thread

[trimbler]

Thanks Claire, it's strangely reassuring to know that other LOs are doing similar things, even if the end isn't quite in sight! I would also like DS asleep by 8pm ideally, although I wouldn't mind 8:15-8:30 provided that he had a good WU time, previous night and nap. But I also see what you mean about the long night/short night pattern, although it doesn't quite alternate for us at the moment - it's more like long night, string of short nights, long night! I'm still very much guessing, today we had 6:30 WU, 7:15 Up, 12:30-2:30 Nap, 7:40 PD but I'm not quite sure what happened after that - very quiet in the monitor for about 15mins but then he made a few funny noises, then quiet again, then a few more funny noises at some point after 8, then quiet. Sounded very awake with his noises, but he has fooled me before with his sleep 'talking'! So let's see what the night brings, I guess I'm aiming at somewhere between 5-5.5h A to BT, depending on how tired he is - tonight he was certainly tired due to 2 shorter nights previously...

I did notice however that we ended up with a longer BT routine tonight, perhaps I didn't rush him so much when he wanted to grab things and was getting distracted... I had meant for PD to be 10mins or so earlier, but maybe taking a bit longer over things was what he needed, or maybe that was just a fluke!

I tend to agree with you about wanting to keep the 2h nap if possible, but then I guess once we're sure that it is interfering with night sleep (which must be a 'when' rather than an 'if'!), then the nap capping will have to start... So we've only just done the 2-1 and I already have an eye on the 1-0!

[clairebear79]

How are things going Trimbler?  Still pretty rough here atm.  We had a run of 10-10h 20 nights after allowing a 1h 45 nap, he was asleep at 8pm & up just after 6am.  While that could be worse, DS's behaviour was atrocious, & I know it was tiredness related.  With the short nights he has to be able to handle such long A times & he's just too tired to do it.  So we have resorted to capping again.  Its a bit of a struggle to get the A times right though.  DS is still taking a good 20mins to settle at BT & I think we may have to accept this is his new WD time in his cot, so perhaps we are going to have to put him in bed earlier.  I am wondering if this is development related as he's recently had a massive language explosion & is talking in 4-5 word sentences & so he lays & recites all his words, particularly anything new he has learnt that day, so maybe he needs a longer wind-down in bed to process it all before he can switch off for the night.

[cath~]

Claire - we are having similarly long wind downs now as L's language is increasing. She chatted for a whole hour before falling asleep for her nap yesterday!

Nap is currently capped around 45mins-1hr as we are having NWs due to teething but sure once these last four molars are through (2 are cutting now) and nights improve we'll have to cut it a bit more

[clairebear79]

Yea I think this is just the way it is now.

She's getting her 2yr molars already?!  O's started playing him up just after Christmas but they're still showing no sign of cutting yet.  They just keep having bouts of flaring up, then it all settles down again.

WRT nap, I saw on another thread you've capped her nap even shorter.  That gives me a little comfort b/c I've been so frightened of OT that I haven't dared cap short, but I actually think a nap on the shorter side (perhaps not quite that short lol!) may be just what O needs too.

What sort of nights are you getting with a nap of that length?  And what A times does she do?  Just interested to see your EASY, as I feel like I've not quite cracked O's yet.  He's doing around 6hrs A in the AM, any more & he is OT for his nap (although he would probably still go down easily at 5.5hrs).  We have capped at 1h 15 (simply b/c he wasn't settling with 1.5hr+ nap) & he is going to bed 5hrs later, so his day is 12h 15 long.  And we are offering EBT if we think its getting too much.  Today is day 5 of this so I'm hoping his nights will start to level off a bit & then I can see whether the shorter nap is helping or not.  His mood seems to be improving with each passing day so that is definitely a good sign, I just hope he can get past the tiredness of the last month where its all been so erratic, its been a tough old ride!

[cath~]

She's getting her 2yr molars already?!  

Yes - she won't really let me into her mouth to check but I saw at least one of the bottom ones is cutting now when she did a big yawn when waking from her nap on Thursday.  I am hoping the other bottom one is cutting too!  Then just the top two to go...  I cannot wait for her to have 20 teeth!

WRT nap, I saw on another thread you've capped her nap even shorter.  That gives me a little comfort b/c I've been so frightened of OT that I haven't dared cap short, but I actually think a nap on the shorter side (perhaps not quite that short lol!) may be just what O needs too.

Yes - I am always scared to cap too much because it seems mean to 'deprive' her of sleep.  But I do know now that with L if she naps too long we just get a really short night (late BT and same/early WU) and I'd prefer her to have a shorter nap and longer night.  If she seems too tired after a capped nap I can (on days when I'm at home) do EBT anyway.

What sort of nights are you getting with a nap of that length?  And what A times does she do?  Just interested to see your EASY, as I feel like I've not quite cracked O's yet.  

I don't think I've ever (or will ever) feel like I've 'cracked' L's EASY.  Partly/mostly because she is low sleep needs and I am always reluctant to accept that!  But as long as she's getting as much sleep as she can and we're all generally happy I think that's all I can ask for now so I suppose in that regard it might be 'cracked'.

At the moment, her EASY is something like (give or take 15 mins either way:

WU 6am
nap 12.45 for 45 mins-1hr
BT 7pm (but can take around 30 mins to settle at the moment (partly chatting, partly teeth discomfort) - usually asleep around 7.15-7.30)

There are a few NWs but not for long each time.  So she's not getting all that much sleep at the moment in total (but then she has ALWAYS been below average in terms of sleep needs), but if she naps longer than an hour her BT becomes 8pm or even later, with WU still at 6am, so this way she seems to be getting the most sleep possible at the moment.

If I put her down for her nap earlier she just chats/plays for ages at the moment (even if tired!) but always ends up nodding off around 12.45-1pm.

Having said that, she's come down with a cold the last couple of days so we let her nap for 1hr30 yesterday, BT was fine at 7pm still and she also had a 'lie in' of 30 mins this morning.  But I know she only needs/is having the extra sleep because she's ill.

On a slightly separate note, I met my SIL's MIL (IYSWIM..) the other weekend and she said her daughter dropped her nap completely at 18 months and she's never seemed to have 'suffered' because of it. Now she is a successful dentist and a really lovely person so I'm trying to bear this in mind when I'm telling myself that L is too young for such a short nap...  Maybe I'll ask my mum how old I was when I stopped napping...  But I doubt she'll remember!  (She's proved v forgetful whenever I've asked about that kind of thing since L arrived!)

[clairebear79]

I don't think I've ever (or will ever) feel like I've 'cracked' L's EASY.  Partly/mostly because she is low sleep needs and I am always reluctant to accept that!

I think this is exactly our issue too.  I think O is lower sleep needs than I'll ever dare admit!

I am always scared to cap too much because it seems mean to 'deprive' her of sleep.  But I do know now that with L if she naps too long we just get a really short night (late BT and same/early WU) and I'd prefer her to have a shorter nap and longer night.

We are getting same now.  2hr nap gives 10hr night.  1h 45 nap gives 10h 20 night.  1.5hr nap around 11hrs.

We've been doing 1h 15 for almost a week now & yesterday we got a 10min settle time at 7pm BT (amazingly short compared to usual) & he STTN with no OT cryouts, up at 6.20am so 11h 20.  We've had same length night the last 3 nights.  Today I stupidly decided to let him have 1.5hrs (at nursery) & we'd planned to do later BT but he gave tired sign so we got him ready asap & into bed for his usual time (just incase he was OT) & he chatted for 30mins.  So I think UT when we put him down, but that he was OT by the time he eventually fell asleep.  We've had 3 cryouts already & these are usually when he's OT.  I always have this worry that its the capped naps that have caused the OT so I end up reverting to longer naps, but TBH I think its the long naps depriving him of night sleep that seem to cause the most OT.  So I think this is my case in proof that the long nap's gotta go.  Boo!

My mum is equally forgetful about such things, but I also know of LO's IRL who have given up napping at 18months.  Instead they slept 13-14hr nights.  So I suppose it can happen.  Its just not very 'textbook' or not what the majority of LO's are doing, so I end up feeling like I'm doing something crazy or stupid when I cut his nap back.

[trimbler]

All very interesting to catch up with you just now, as I've been busy/deprived of laptop time recently! Everything I've read on this thread seems to be about decreasing sleep needs, longer A times, shorter naps etc. But I guess I still struggle to get past the fact that our DS was on 10-20min am nap, 2h pm nap and 10.5-11h+ nights just a month ago before we went to 1 nap. So I find it really hard to believe that he might already be needing to cap that nap... For us, there have been other factors at play - noisy works on the railway line outside our flat, noisy mice in the wall cavity in DS room (eek!), possibly canines, possibly just taking a lot in (although I can't say there's much coming out speech-wise yet!), he certainly does get very excited/hyper, but that's always been an OT sign for him, unless he just needs more time to work it out of his system. Interesting to hear about long WD times in the cot, ours have remained long but thankfully they're usually < 1h now. But that does make it so hard to gauge OT/UT, doesn't it! So many times I've thought UT to start with, only to find he then gets OT and it's too late and we get that horrible short night again, 9-10h. He's certainly been tired for ages and much harder work during the day, more prone to tantrums etc. Anyway, that's just me rambling again to get it out of my system - I know I stress over this far too much but I just can't wait to have him happy and settled into a nice routine again! Not to mention more sleep for us!

Anyway, what I really meant to ask was - roughly how long after the 2-1 did you have to start nap capping again? I mean, for us it could potentially be immediate, I'd kind of hoped for a nice stretch of 2-2.5h naps before we had to do that! Did you ever settle into a nice routine after the 2-1, or did you have to start capping almost straight away?

Oh and another question - do you ever get really quiet when they first get PD at BT, for maybe up to 20mins or so, but not asleep, and then starting OT crying? No idea what that's about - I think we've finally got it right and he's just about to drop off, but then the crying starts and I know it's going to be a long time before he actually gets off. Other times it's just chatting away the whole time, and then I'm more certain about UT.

[clairebear79]

So many times I've thought UT to start with, only to find he then gets OT and it's too late and we get that horrible short night again, 9-10h.

Yep we sometimes get this too, usually what I find happens is if he is UT when I put him in bed, then he will chat for ages goes past being nicely tired & ends up OT by the time he eventually settles & we get a disturbed, and short night.

how long after the 2-1 did you have to start nap capping again? I mean, for us it could potentially be immediate, I'd kind of hoped for a nice stretch of 2-2.5h naps before we had to do that! Did you ever settle into a nice routine after the 2-1, or did you have to start capping almost straight away?

We started 1 nap days at 12 months but he couldn't seem to handle it every single day til 15 months, so up to then we kind of alternated.  TBH I didn't get him into a very good routine though - it was a real struggle for quite a while.  But I did notice at the 14/15 month mark that if he napped over 2hrs we'd get a very short night(10-10.5), & we capped at 2hrs max at 15 months, so I guess it was fairly soon after the 2-1 that he needed me to do that.  I think its a bit unrealistic to expect a 2.5hr nap + 11-12hr night at 18 months+ - if he'd done his transition at 12/13 months then maybe, IYSWIM?

do you ever get really quiet when they first get PD at BT, for maybe up to 20mins or so, but not asleep, and then starting OT crying?

No I don't usually get this - we usually get chatter then sleep or chatter for ages & ages.  It does sound like it may be an OT thing.

I can't wait to have a happy settled routine again too.x

[trimbler]

Yes agree with all of that, Claire Well last night I think he must have been kind of in and out of very light sleep for about 45mins before crying out and needing resettling... I'm guessing he must have done something similar before, and yes probably OT. More promising tonight, I think he was disturbed by noises from his heater clicking on/off (we don't have central heating) but seemed to get to sleep pretty quickly after I went in to him... wait and see!

Right, I've now decided to just try and fix as much as possible for now and see what happens - I think you said you did something similar, Kara, if you're still reading along? So we're trying:

7:15 Up (whatever time he wakes)
12:30/12:45 Nap for 2h (flexible due to childminder, taking different times to settle etc)
8pm BT (PD time, allowing for some WD by himself in the cot before dropping off peacefully... or not!)

Hope you're all managing to stay sane and get some couple time in! One thing we've started this week is having a quick dinner together before DS goes to bed. We can't eat dinner with DS during the week, since on childcare days he eats there, and on home days DH stays too late at work for that, but we've found that DS doesn't actually mind us having dinner whilst he's still up, and sometimes joins us at the table and gets a few titbits. This feels like it gives us much more time in the evenings Before, it was kind of put DS to bed, make dinner, eat dinner, collapse in the sofa ignoring the washing up!

[lily528]

oh ladies...although I love you..I have to say I hate to be back on this page but I guess we are not out of the dark...I posted back in March with a schedule gone crazy, but we got back on track within a week and have been GREAT with 2 hr naps and 12 hr nights 8pm-8am...well now all of a sudden this past week we are getting 1 hr naps and EW's...omg...I want to cry...I did an EBT at 7 last night, but she played til 7:45pm and she was up at 6:30 so I did a 12:15 nap rather than her usual 1pm nap (when she wakes at 8am) and she slept an hour ugh...I don't know what's going on or how to fix it...over the weekend i did a 7pm EBT and she slept til 7:30am which was great..but it didn't last... this WAS our schedule

8 am wu
1-3pm nap
8pm bt

now it's all over the place...here was today...

6:30 am wu
12:15 -1:30 nap
?  BT ( I don't even know but I'm thinking another 7pm EBT and pray i don't get an EW)

what do you girls think?  any tips?  I'm at a loss...she WAS doing 5-5.5 hr A times and doing great...I am so upset and miss my 8 am wakings terribly but these shortened naps are killer now too...help!!!!

[clairebear79]

hun she may just be UT now.  12hr night + 2hr nap is quite a lot at this age & many LO's do less.  We are also still struggling & have been trimming the nap more & more, but he is teething right now & so super sleepy again.  We were away on holiday last week & so I spent more time watching him & he was getting tired at the 6hr mark, so we are more aiming for 6hr A / 1h 45 nap & then 5-5.25hr A.  So day has looked something like:

Up     6.45-7am
Nap: 12.45-2.30 or 1-2.45
BT:    7.45ish

We're getting around 11hrs at night the last few nights.  I feel sure this will get shorter again as he gets through this teething (only 2 wks ago we were getting 10h 20 nights with nap of that length) & so we'll have to go back to cutting the nap shorter.

So....I think you may have to accept a slightly earlier WU & try & shoot for a 6hr A before nap, OR perhaps you could try cutting her nap down a bit to 1h 45 or 1.5hrs & see what happens - what do you think?

[lily528]

she seems to be cutting her nap herself I know that was a lot of sleep but it was nice LOL her molars are also coming through so I'm sure this isn't helping :/  I wouldn't mind a SLIGHTLY earlier wu but 1.5 earlier is nuts I just can't push BT any later...8pm is late enough...so based on what you are saying it should look like this?...

7 am wu
1-2:30/2:45 pm nap
8 pm bt

guess that 's pretty much what she is doing now anyway...yuck!  I can manage a 7-7:30 wu but 6:30 is sooo difficult...obviously it is what it is but if I can do something to push it a little later like til 7-7:30 that be great. 

I basically did a 6 hr A today and she keeps waking up from her naps a complete mess in tears and inconsolable.  Which made me feel she is OT at this point which brought on the EBT's...

[lily528]

I should also add I took her nap time bottle away 3 days ago...I don't really think/know if it's related to the shortened nap cause she more or less goes right to sleep like she always did. Now we just read a story and I give her a sip of her water. She has also been crying out in her sleep which usually means OT for her . Tonight I put her down around 7:15-7:20 (she's been up since 1:45) she fell asleep around 7:45...really hoping for 7 wu or later

[lily528]

up and moving around since 6:15...think she MAY have gone back to sleep for a little bit but she is pretty much totally awake now atr 6:35...ugh!  She's still laying down snuggling her bunny so I'm going to try and leave her til 7...unless she starts crying.  So what do I do now?  do I do a 6 hr A and pd for nap at 12:30 (her naps have been at 1pm for months) or do I push to 1pm and hope for the best?  what would you do?  I know I have to let go of the 8am wake ups at this point but is 7 too much to ask for with a descent nap?  


UPDATE:  baby girl slept 1 hr 50 mins whew best nap in a week almost...

today

6:35 am wu
1-2:50 pm nap
?  BT (this is where I'm not sure...want to find a way to push her wu til at least 7..usual BT was 8pm)

[trimbler]

Phew - just caught up! If only they didn't have teething/illness etc so we could actually work it all out! The scientist in me longs for fewer variables and a nice controlled condition in which to experiment We have tonsillitis and canines...

(((hugs))) Melissa - I guess I'm with Claire that she could probably manage a stretch in her A times. I'm still trying to work out what ours should be... My general strategy - partly out of necessity (childcare) and partly out of my desire to fix whatever can be fixed - is to keep DS in his cot until the time I want to get him up (going in to calm him if necessary), and set his meals and nap time whenever possible. So at the moment it's like this:

7:15am Get up (even if he woke earlier, or I have to wake him), bf, nappy and dress
7:45ish Breakfast
9-10ish snack
11:30 Lunch
12:30/12:45 Nap depending on how early he woke.
2:30pm Up - again trying to resettle him if he wakes early, usually successfully atm as he's been OT (snack)
5pm Dinner
6:45pm start WD, bath, bf, story time (trying to lengthen this recently)
7:45/8pm PD..... but can be anything up to 8:45pm by the time he's asleep The earliest it's been recently was 8:20 with 8pm PD - if we try an earlier PD we usually end up with 8:30-8:45 asleep so it just backfires!

I think we've found that if we try to stretch him to set BT/nap times and he's OT, he'll either resettle more easily or over the course of a few days he'll have got so tired or be waking so early that he will then resettle and then wakes again at a better time and we can start over. He used to respond really well to the EBT but that just doesn't seem to work here any more!