Support Thread for 2-1 Nap Transition cont'd pt 4

[clairebear79]

Great that you've had some longer naps - he obviously needed to catch up.  IIWM I would probably keep with nap at 12.30-1 for the time being - 6hrs A is a lot for him to manage before his nap when he has only just transitioned.  Don't be scared to try EBT, esp if you have a textbook sleeper.  It doesn't necessarily mean he will wake up earlier - he may surprise you & sleep til his usual wakeup time!  It just gives him the opportunity to catch up, esp on a day when he does a shorter nap.  WRT the really long nap, you will just have to see how he fares with this.  Some LO's do take super long naps when they transition & still sleep long nights, but others will sleep a shorter night.  Mine is one of the latter so I find if he sleeps 2.5hrs+ then he will always sleep less at night, so I cap his nap.  I would give it a week or so to see what happens with your nights before you make that decision though - he might just have needed a bit extra to catch up on OT that was building.  HTH.x

[newbabe]

Thanks so much Claire
He did wake twice last night at 1am, (always with crying), DH thought he had pain so brought him downstairs to get calpol, DS spent a joyful half hr running after the dogs, then went back to bed like a lamb (with NO calpol!!). Woke at 7.30.

I think ur right, will let him lead for the next week or 2 and then make changes if i need to. Unsure why he wakes so upset at night tho, room is v dark, maybe he is old enough to be afraid of dark now???

[Spleenie]

Hi all,

I'm at a total 2:1 loss here!

For 1 week Katelyn had 1 nap days -

7.30 - Awake
1 - Nap
3.30 - Awake
7.30 - Bedtime

The day went really well but we got NW's around 9pm and 1am, at 1pm she would settle within 30 mins to 2 hours!

I reverted back to a 2 nap day and the days are sooooo long!

EASY from lastweek whilst at nursery (slept thru the night) -

7.30 - Awake
11.15 - Asleep
11.45 - Woke her up
3.15 - Asleep
3.50 - Awake
7.30 - Asleep

Today's EASY

6.30 - Awake
10.30 - Asleep
11.00 - Woke her up
2.30 - Asleep
3.45 - Woke her up
8.10 - Still awake in her cot

I am trying to see where I'm going wrong but i'm getting a bit muddled. She is fighting her naps during 2 nap days, lots of crying etc....

Any ideas ladies? x x x

[newbabe]

God Spleenie, Im at sea with the whole thing so no advice, but I empathise!!

 I took Claires advice and put him down at 7 tonight (instead of 7.30) and we had tears and roaring, and didnt actually go to sleep till 8.15 with DH sitting in the room with him.

Im afraid of accidental parenting now with all these NW and EW as he wakes crying and wont settle unless we r in the room sitting with him. Is it right to do this, otherwise I feel he would be "crying it out"...

[clairebear79]

Spleenie - sounds like she is telling you she wants that 1 nap.  Esp if she is fighting going down in the AM after 4hrs.  Difficult to say what happened that week of 1 nap.  It may be the NW's were down to OT from the transition (inevitable I am afraid) although I wouldn't expect a long NW from that, OR that pushing her straight to 5.5hrs A in the AM was a bit much - hence she slept a big long nap of 2.5hrs, and with only 4hrs A to BT she was a tad UT hence the long NW.  Is 2.5hrs a lot more sleep than she would ordinarily have on a 2 nap day?  It looks to be.  At this stage I wouldn't want to tell you to cap her nap b/c she is going to get OT with the transition.  BUT if you kept getting long NW's then I would say that was the thing to do.

IIWM I would perhaps first try doing a 5hr A time to nap, rather than pushing her straight to 5.5hrs.  Let her sleep (she may not do 2.5hrs but anything over 2hrs is good) & then this will give her a little longer A to BT than 4hrs.  Then see how her nights go.
You can always thrown in a 2 nap day if she wakes early one day through OT - this will help to keep her to her usual BT.

newbabe - hmmmm - what did your day look like today?  Did he nap well? You said he's been crying every BT right - regardless of whether it was his regular BT or EBT?  What is your gut feeling - do you think UT/OT?  Or that he's getting SA?

WRT sitting with him when he wakes - are you having to do this at every nap/BT/NW now?  What is your BT routine like - do you put him down & walk out or do you usually stay with him until he settles?  How quickly do you go into him when he NW's or starts to cry?  Do you give him a few minutes first to see if he will resettle or do you go straight in?

[newbabe]

ooh Claire thanks for asking

Dont have to stay with him at bedtime or naptime normally, but always the NW.

I am beginning to think it is a bit of SA, but is this normal for an 18th mts old?? He has got very huggy with me and DH and shy with family recently. He never went thru the SA thing up till this

He was content to lie fairly still at 3am for an hour with me just sitting in the room, beside the cot, but crying if I made to leave. He wasnt half asleep tho IYKWIM, he was fairly awake! he woke 2 other times but 10 min did the trick. I do leave it a few mins ( maybe 3?) before going in, but usually he gets louder, not usually mantra crys, tho the odd one is.

Now he is in bed, napping for nearly 3 hrs, I think I better wake him, but sleep has been so bad at night I feel he needs this long one.

The only glitch by day is the childminder put him to bed at 2pm (8hr A!!!) on tue, and 10am Wed (3hr A) grrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!! Guess he was OT when I tried EBT at 7pm on the wed.

Its nearly a month of NW now, and they are getting longer, Im getting down about it tbh

[clairebear79]

(((hugs))) newbabe

I am beginning to think it is a bit of SA, but is this normal for an 18th mts old??

My LO is only 15months so can't say from personal experience, but I know of another BW mama who is only just going through this with her 22month old DS for the first time so yes it can happen!

How long did he nap today in the end?  It does sound like he needed it after being with the childminder.  Will she follow your routine so he takes his naps at the same time as he would when he's at home?

When you say he laid awake for an hour at 3am the other night - how had he napped that day?  IME OT doesn't usually cause long wide awake NW's, we usually get frequent wakings in the early part of the night & then EW. Posting your EASY for the last couple of days might help us give you some pointers.

If it helps you feel any better - we are still having fun with our transition too.  DS can do mostly 1 nap days, but we do have to throw in the odd 2 nap day to stop OT from building.  Yesterday I let him sleep 2.5hrs at naptime (b/c he'd had a shorter night of 11hrs the night before & mummy felt guilty) & we did 5hrs A to BT.  He was UT when I put him down & took almost 30mins to settle (7.20pm) & then he was up this morning at 6am.  10h 45 sleep.  Ugh!  I have decided I need to cap his nap b/c this is not the first time we have had a shorter night when he has napped for this long.  I am going to start at 2h 15 but am prepared to cap it at 2hrs if I need to.


 

[newbabe]

Great night last night (but he has been averaging ONE good night in 7 for the past month). 3 or 4 wake ups but only a few crys and he went back to sleep himself!! And this was after a three hr nap yesterday. The childminder minds him inn our house, but brings him to her own house for part of the day and I am thinking she is suiting herself timing his naps... another prob to overcome!!

EASY yesterday:
8am wake (late for him but had been awake 2 hrs during night)
9am bfast
11am snack
12.45-3.30 Sleep, niggled half way thru but went straight back
3.30 dinner
5.30 snack
8pm Sleep without any fuss (usually 7.30) STTN!!!!

Today
7.15 wake
8.30 b fast
11.30 big snack
12.15-3.15 sleep
3.30 dinner
6.45 snack
8pm sleep, no fuss

Thanks for all your support. Im presuming the huge sleeps today and yesterday are major catch ups, I am making the most of it!!!

[samIam]

Hi...I just need to let out a little frustration.

We've been dealing with EWs for months now. We've also been sleep training, which makes it so much harder. I've received wonderful advice from the PD/PU, EASY, and Toddler Sleep boards, but we still aren't seeing much improvement.

Here's a quick bit of background - our very spirited 1yr DS has never slept independently. We started sleep training at 9mo to get rid of the prop of rocking or bouncing him to sleep. Not much success yet. We've tried adjusting our routine. He seems to be sleeping even less. We took a break from sleep training just to let him catch up on sleep. That didn't even help. I can no longer extend naps or EWs with AP.

DS averages only 9h at night. The most he has ever slept is 10h 20m, and that was only once. There are occasional NWs but they usually don't last long. EWs every day (anywhere between 4:45-6:00). I'd love for him to sleep until 7, but at this point I'm happy with 6. I tried capping his am nap to 45m for a couple weeks, but I never got a long pm nap, so now I let him sleep for as long as he wants. Even then, he only naps for 1h 15m max. Before I started capping his nap, I would get a 1.5h am nap. I was hoping he'd return to that, but I think he got use to being woken up after 45m.

Here's the routine we were shooting for, but have never gotten close to:
7:00 - wu
10:30-11:15 am nap
2:30-4:00 pm nap
8:00 bt

Here's what we usually get (I let him nap for as long as he wants, which is never very long):
5:00-6:00 wu
10:00-11:00 am nap
3:00-3:45 pm nap (I'll try to PD at 2, but he'll usually fight the whole nap; I try to extend but rarely works)
8-8:30 bt

He always wakes up crying, but it's not a reflection of his mood, he just wants to be taken out of crib. I nurse him as soon as he wakes up (except if EW is before 6). Then he's happy. He's almost always happy, which is great, but he must be OT. He rarely acts tired or gives sleepy cues. I know I should move his BT earlier, but I can't get him to fall asleep earlier. Once a week, we visit GPs, and leave at 7:00 and I always hope he'll fall asleep in the car, but he never does.

This morning, he woke at 4:50. I tried PD, ssh/pat, then gave up and tried to hold him...nothing worked. By 6, I was so frustrated, I didn't even want to feed him. My DH took over, and was able to get him to fall asleep after 20 minutes, but he rubbed his back the whole time. He woke up after 30m, at which point I had calmed down enough to nurse him. DH takes care of most EWs but I try on the days he works because he is a police officer with 12.5h shifts.

I don't know what to do...DS just doesn't like to sleep. No matter what I do (take him for a walk, car ride, or even rock him) I can't get him to sleep earlier or longer. He only averages 11h total of day+night sleep. I know that's what most LOs get just at night.

Ugh...where do I go from here? Should I try capping his am nap again, this time down to 30m? Should I move his am nap later? He's already averaging 4.5h morning A time.

Sorry for the long rant. Thanks for listening.

[clairebear79]

Hiya samIam - welcome to the 2-1.  much (((hugs))) & sympathy on the EW - I too have a LO who likes to get up early (5.40am today).

How old is your LO?  12 months?

Looking at your EASY, I think he probably isn't tired when you try to PD at 2pm (only 3hrs A after a 1hr nap) which is why he is fighting.  And given that he is only sleeping for 45mins when he eventually does sleep at 3pm I'd say that confirms it.  Like you say, BT probably does need to be earlier too, as a 4h 15 A time after a 45min nap is likely to be making him OT at BT, which in turn may well be the cause of your EW.

I think he's well on the way to 1 nap & may even be ready, but it will be hard to put him straight onto 1 nap with the EW.

So.... IIWM I would first try capping that AM nap to 30mins, and shoot for PM nap around 2.5-3hrs after he wakes.  I don't think capping to 45mins will make enough of a difference.  Hopefully he will take a really decent PM nap.  And I do think you need to try & get that BT a bit earlier if you can.  So your EASY would look something like:

Wake: ? 5-6am
Nap:   10.00-10.30
Nap:   1/1.30-2.30/3.30  (1.5-2hrs)
BT:     7/7.30

I would give it a fair try of at least a week, possibly 2, and see if it helps to pull his wakeup later.

[samIam]

Thanks for your reply, Claire.

DS is 12.5 months. I have been thinking about capping the AM nap to 30m, but have been too scared to try it. I'm worried he still won't take a long PM nap...but I'll never know until I try.

This morning he woke up at 5:45 clearly awake and happy after a 9.5h night. He stopped crying the minute I walked into his room and when I patted the mattress and told him to lie back down, he just sat down and started to pat the mattress, too! So we started our day at 6. His AM nap was 10-11, then I thought he was tired by 2 because he was very clingy (sometimes when he is tired, he just wants to be held). I got him down at 2:15, but he woke up at 2:45. He was screaming, but I couldn't get him to go back to sleep, so I took him into the living room. He was still fussy and crying 30m later, so I held him in his dark room, and he fell back to sleep from 3:25-4:20. I have no idea what that means. I assume I misread his clinginess as sleepiness...it was probably SA instead, and he was actually UT at 2:15. But I'm surprised he fell asleep again at 3:25. BT tonight was 8:15. I hope after that late odd nap, he shouldn't be OT at BT.

I'll try to follow the EASY you suggested starting tomorrow. I'll let you know how it goes.

[clairebear79]

Sounds like he was OT yesterday - the 30min nap is usually indicative of that.  I'd say if he was UT then he really wouldn't have gone back to sleep.  My guess is that the short nights will be catching up on him & so its great that he had that extra nap & hopefully that will have meant he went down at BT less OT. 

If you are worried about capping the AM nap at 30mins you can always start with 45mins, but I am worried that it won't be enough of a cut to get you a decent PM nap IYSWIM?  The choice is yours though.  FX'd for tomorrow!

If it helps to know you're not alone....we are in same boat this morning with a 9h 50 night & 5.10am WU but caused by opposite reason - too much day sleep yesterday!  He was up at 5.30am, held him out till 11.30am for his nap & he slept 2.5hrs.  I forgot to tell his Grandma to cap his nap & so this is what we get this morning.  If its not one thing its another!

[*Kara*]

Hi everyone!  Just found out that there is a 2-1 thread in Toddler Sleep - OOPS!  

We are doing quite well after a month of doing one nap most days and the odd two nap day to catch up when needed.  This is our typical day:

Wake 630am
Nap 1130-130
BT 7pm.  STTN.

ETA - I jinxed myself - she just woke at 1pm 

[samIam]

I don't want to get my hopes up, but we had an amazing day!

5:50 WU (that wasn't amazing, but hopefully that will change)
10:20-10:50 AM nap (took 20m to settle, woke him up)
1:50-3:50 PM nap (this is the longest he has EVER napped!)
8:15 BT

I'm curious to see what tomorrow will bring...

[samIam]

Ugh...5:30 WU after our amazing day. Maybe the PM nap was too late and too long. He did have a brief NW at 9:10, and was very wiggly all night, ended up facing sideways with his back leaning against the top of the crib. I wonder if that means UT or OT? Maybe 4h 25m of A time before BT following a 2h nap isn't long enough? We'll just have to keep trying and see if his naps are consistent and his EWs improve.