Support for dropping the nap part 11

[*Becky*]

Hi trinity33 - it's really tough. DS is a good sleeper but 1-0 took a while. DD is now in the middle of it and i am a bit clueless really as to how to deal with the end of it. We have had quite a few NND's recently and not sure if we are heading for a fall?? My issue is that even with a 1 hour nap I am not sure she is that well rested the next day - maybe day is robbing from night or maybe on the days she does nap we need to do a later BT. It's quite hard with her as she goes straight to sleep in the evening regardless so I can't gauge where we are at yk? Atm we are doing a 6.30pm BT and hoping for a 12-12.5 night but not sure when she wakes really as she is super brilliant with her clock and we rarely hear her before it goes off.

[trimbler]

Becky, we've certainly had day sleep robbing from the night with 1h naps, then we started capping at 45mins which did improve the night sleep and he was on a more even keel the next day. However this was with a monitor so we could tell how much he was sleeping, he would take longer and longer to get to sleep at nap time! Now baby has the monitor so we're doing it blind and he just gets a 1h window in which to nap, we get him up at the same time regardless and do an earlier BT if he didn't nap at all or we suspect there was very little sleep. He definitely needs a later BT when he naps or we get ut/ot. ATM we aim for 11h nights with a nap, which we suspect is 30-45mins (just a guess as he usually stays in his room until the 'sun' comes up), 12h nights with no nap, the next day I think he makes up for this by having a slightly longer nap, closer to 1h. I know he's older than yours but he's always needed shorter A times despite fighting sleep!

Trinity33, I haven't had to deal with nurseries, just a childminder who pretty much did whatever we asked. How many days does your LO go to nursery? Other than starting the day intentionally earlier to make the nursery nap effectively later (which I'm sure you don't want to do!), how early can you put him to bed on a no nap nursery day?

[trinity33]

Hi Becky and trimbler, thanks for posting.

Can't help admitting I'm a little jealous of your 12-12.5 hour nights Becky.  C has only done 12 hours twice in 3 years!

He's normally at nursery 5 days a week, with exceptions when I can take days off, like today . He's just had his 3rd Nnd in a row and was falling asleep at 6 so decided on very ebt. He woke up at 8pm and has been wake for the last 25 mins and counting. I'm not holding out for a good night tonight!
On nursery days we get home about 6.20, then he has a snack. So somewhere between 7-7.30 is probably the earliest we can realistically do.

[*Becky*]

we seem to have settled into a pattern of 2 NND's and then a nap day for now...
That's hard trinity33 with the nursery days, both mine have needed BT's of about 6.30pm when they first transition to NND's. Hopefully he will settle into it.

[trimbler]

Sounds good, Becky.

Trinity33, I agree with Becky, mine can do a 12h day now but when he first had to have a NND he would struggle to 11h. Is there any chance you could leave work early from time to time, even one day a week, so that he can get an EBT once in a while if he has to stop napping?

We tried 'quiet time' in room for the first time yesterday, which was interesting. He played a bit with a jigsaw and fuzzy felt for 15mins and then came in to us telling us what he'd done and wanting to come back and join us. We suggested he continued playing in his room until the 'sun' came up on the gro clock, which he did, although he did ask DH for some help with a jigsaw at one point. Bed 12h after WU, we're shifting back to 7-7 for term time so some instability there, also he does wake to DD in our adjacent room, so it's hard to tell how much the nights are related to napping or not. One trip to the loo during DD's 'dream feed' (which she had woken early for and cried), and a request for water (which we normally leave in his room - oops!) during her early morning feed, so she may have woken him both times. How do other people do quiet time in the bedroom, what age do they stop (or how long after stopping napping), and do you find you need a slightly longer day compared to when you're out and about without a chance to rest?

[Mattsmummy]

Okay we are having real trouble here...
DS, who for the most part has settled to sleep quite easily, it now taking AGES to fall asleep, getting up out of bed numerous times, faffing about, and then only sleeping 8.5 - 10 hours per night.
He is still napping at nursery...
Is this OT or UT at bedtime or day sleep robbing night or a combo of all three??!?!?!?!

Thoughts?

[*Becky*]

If he is still napping I would be inclined to say UT. That or a developmental leap.

[Mattsmummy]

Yep, up to an hour at nursery ever day...
Should I have them cap it at 30 minutes or ask that they cut it out completely?

[trimbler]

What's his WU, nap and BT times? I'd tend to agree UT, with our DS we would continue with a certain nap length until it caused these sorts of problems, then move BT later by say 15mins until he had an 11h night, as any less than this would result in him being very tired the next day. Once the nap meant that he could no longer do 11h at night, we'd trim it by 15mins, bringing BT a little earlier again and then start the whole process again. Sometimes we would find that he'd take 30mins or longer to get to sleep, but then after moving BT 15mins later he'd actually end up getting to sleep earlier than before.

[Hedgehog17]

Hi ladies, we're back 

DS seems to be trying to drop the nap completely this week! For the last 6? months or so he's been happily napping every 2nd day or so, now he's just suddenly not wanting to nap at all, and I'm in shock 

I know most kids have dropped the nap completely by now so it's nothing unusual, but I don't know how to structure his day now to prevent OT, and when to have his dinner and BT 

He was doing 7.30am - 6pm on a NND and 7.30am to 7.30pm with a 1.5 hr nap at 2pm-ish on a ND.

It probably doesn't help that he's been getting up later (8am) as nursery is closed this week so it's thrown the routine out a bit  He doesn't go back until next Wednesday so I don't know if he'll go back to being more tired after being at nursery 5 mornings a week...

I know he's almost 4yo but he is very HSN and he will not cope with getting OT 

[Mattsmummy]

Okay,
so M's schedule is as follows right now...
Not ideal but this is what it is...

WU - 6/630
Nap - 1245/1 for up to 1 hour
BT - 8/830

On the weekend, he usually won't nap or will only nap in the car for 15/20 minutes.  On a NND, we can get him into bed around 730ish...

He has been mucking around at bedtime lately, getting up, having to pee, seeing shadows etc...
We are trying to be very consistent with his routine but it seem I can't get him down any earlier than 830ish...

I'm at a loss...thoughts???

[*Becky*]

So is 8.30pm the earliest you can get him to bed because of work?
If he is not napping and up at 6/6.30pm I would have him in bed by 6/6.30pm. Is that possible? I think the general rule is to do 11-11.5 hours A when they first transition but I do more than that with mine as quite honestly a bT before 6.30pm is not do-able for us. So we set at 6.30pm for a NND and more like 7-7.30pm for a nap day.

Hedgehog - when H was nap refusing around 3 years (and I pretty much knew he was done with bed naps) I did an AP 30-35 min CU nap. Ours was in the car. He needed the nap but he would not take it at all..it worked for us until he completely dropped the nap at 3.5 but I was a SAHM mum at the time so could structure the day as and how I wanted/needed.

[Mattsmummy]

Oh heaven's no...that is the earliest I seem to be able to get him settled and ready to fall asleep...
He is running around, full of beans all evening...
I'm wondering if there isn't a bit of OT at play too...

[*Becky*]

well yes there is probably a bit of an UT/OT loop going on. Being up at 6/6.30pm and going to bed at 7.30pm would be way OT here but then if he is napping an hour quite a bit it might be hard to know what is going on.

[trimbler]

Mattsmummy, I would have thought you could try capping the nap to 45mins as a start and see if that helps with bedtime? Maybe try an 8pm BT with the slightly shorter nap, give it a few days and see what happens? Does he seem to do ok with a 10h night, or does he seem really tired the next morning?

Hedgehog17, hi again! Can you have a discussion with your DS about why he may need a nap from time to time? Having fought sleep since he was tiny, my DS does now realise that he needs his sleep, he may go crazy hyper before bedtime but some days he's actually told us that he needs an early night as he's tired, or that he needs his nap. I think they're old enough to understand the consequences of not getting enough sleep, as they see the effects for themselves. On the other hand, is it possible that he can do without the nap most days now, and just have catch up naps when he's especially tired? You could discuss with him that he may need to nap more often once he returns to nursery, so it doesn't come as a surprise? You could also introduce some sort of quiet time in his room instead of nap time, with the option to nap if he realises he's actually tired - we've only tried this once so I can't really advise here, but it may help him to get through a NND without getting OT?