anyone want to chat about the 2-1 nap switch , thread#3

[amy123]

Leslie - that does sound like a stellar day!  Woo hoo!!    When my dd wakes at 6 a.m. (early for her by about 45 min), she definitely goes down by 9:30 or 9:45.  I also wonder if it's too early though, since it's not much A time at all.  If I let her go much later, though, she wants to sleep much longer instead of just catnapping, and then I'm waking her from a deeper sleep and she's cranky.  Also, for us, a later a.m. nap pushes the p.m. nap later and then she's not ready to go to sleep at bedtime.    Re:  paci... we used to have a rule that paci's were only for the crib and car - nowhere else.  And she generally used it just for going to sleep, although I started taking the easy way out when she'd start to fuss at night and just pop into her room and pop the paci back in and that was magic.  Back to the movie and dh, you know?  Then when we were travelling recently, and when she's been sick, we started to let her have it during the day, too.  So, she seems to want it more and more.  Creating a monster of a habit, I know... 

Jmoran - Your question reminds me of one of newmum's responses last week...  that you move their bedtime earlier by the difference of the amount of time they napped and the amount of time they should have napped during the day.  So, if they slept only 1:20 and 1:30, and they usually need 2 hrs, then moving bedtime about 25 minutes earlier than usual.  (New mum - are we considered "groupies" if we're quoting you to each other?  )

Jammer - Hi and welcome!  What happens when you try an earlier bedtime?  How is she during the day (e.g., is she showing any subtle signs of being short of sleep... fussy/clumsy/clingy/easily frustrated/etc.? or do you have the sense that she's getting enough total sleep?)

Amy

[amy123]

The good news here:  after her 3x nap refusal yesterday p.m., dd went to sleep at 5:45 last night and slept until 6:45 this morning!  Hooray!  How does one know if you've conquered the OT monster?

The bad news:  after the 13 hr night, dd was yawning (twice) at 9 a.m.  but refused 2 attempts at a.m. nap. and then had to come w/ me to pick her big brother up at preschool at 11 a.m. followed by a quick bite of lunch (so she wouldn't wake up mid-nap due to hunger) and finally got to sleep at 11:45, only napping for 45 minutes.  Ugh!!  Woke up fussy and tired.  Tried hand on her back/PD for about 15 min. but she screamed and cried.  Then big brother turned his radio on full blast and had to deal w/ that, so no way she was going back to sleep.  Still tried rocking/soothing and even nursing (in that attempt to try ANYTHING to get her past OT) but to no avail.  Asleep tonight at 6 p.m. (after 5.5 hrs A time) with two re-settles in the last 3 hrs already.  AAAAAAARRRRGGHHHHH!!! 

-amy

[lindaloulou]

New Mum-

As many others have said, thank you so much for your words of wisdom....it must take alot of time to keep up with everyone, so thank you on behalf of us all!!!

So, vacation went well. The first day was a total bust, skipped AM nap and then put her down for a nap at 1PM (about 7.5 hours awake before a nap). She slept about 30 minutes , but then slept 12 hours that night. She proceeded to take 2 naps a day whild we were gone, except for the last day. We have been home 2 days and she is back to taking one nap in the AM. I am confused as to if she really is ready for only 1 nap. How does she take 2 naps for several days straight then boycott her afternoon nap???   Should I continue trying for a 2nd nap for a few more weeks? And then if she is ready for 1 nap, I am not sure how to stretch her morning awake time. I get the concept of 10-15 minutes later every few days, but I am wondering if she falls right to sleep at 9:15, if I start pushing her to 9:30/10/10:30 will that not make her OT and therefore take a short nap? Also, how long does the transition take before the one nap start to lengthen? Right now she is taking her AM nap and refusing her PM nap, but she still is "resting" for 1.5 hours in her crib in the PM. I am really struggling because I am not sure if she really is ready for just one nap (or maybe it is that I am not ready for only one nap!).

Thoughts anyone?

[jmoran544]

Yesterday and last night:

The kiddos went down for a nap at 11:30am. Ds slept for 1:10 and dd for 1:20. I put them to bed at 6:15 and they were asleep before 6:30. Again this morning ds woke, at around 4:30. Dd woke too, but fell asleep after about 15 min. Ds was awake for 45 min. he did the same thing yesterday, but his waking was calmer, so the speak. Whereas two nights ago he seemed wide awake during that time, this morning he was more subdued- talking and playing, but with brief periods of quiet. He fell asleep again around 5:15. The kiddos woke for the day at 6:40 am. So they had about an hour less than last night. And their naps weren't as great. In fact, their naps seem to be getting shroter since we went to 5 hrs wake time in the morning- three days ago. They started with ds sleeping 2 hrs, dd 1:30. Then ds went to 1:20 and 1:10. Dd went to 1:20 both days.

Do I need to do any tweaking, or should we just stay the course?

Right now I am putting them down for an am nap after 5 hrs A time (unless they can't make it due to interrupted night sleep). And then when do they go to bed? 5.5 hrs after waking from a nap? Or should I focus on giving them a 12/ 13 hr day?

[lib]

Hi everyone

Looks busy out there! 
Lindaloulou - from what I understand from New Mum flexibility is needed and that some days there will be only 1 nap, then others back to 2 naps (which stops the OTness) - so maybe go with the flow?  What do you think New Mum?
Jmoran - perhaps just see how their nap goes, and if it's a short one then put them to bed around 6?
That's all my pearls of wisdom used up!!

Anyway progress on my side - mmmmm not good.  I am trying to stick to my schedule, but she developed a cold and nasty cough over the weekend so both Sat and Sun nights she woke coughing from 6.30pm on a half hourly basis till 10.30pm.  I then gave her med and she slept thro till 6am - which was good.  However on Mon night she woke at 3.50am crying, wouldn't stop even tho I eventually gave her med at about 5am - so my day started pretty early!!!!!  She napped for about 2 hours total, then I put her to bed at 5.30, and she woke up at 4.50am this morning.  Arggghhhhhh - would not go back to sleep and I eventually got her up at 6am.  Anybody any ideas why she'd doing this?  Could it be the cold still lurking around?

She is in nursery today, so no doubt will have minimum sleep and I will get her to bed by 5.30pm - but any suggestions on the way forward?  Should I just continue with my schedule and see what happens for a few more days?  Trouble is, when she is waking so early having the first nap at 9.30am and bedtime at 6.15pm seems too late and will bring on OT?
thanks, Lib.

[lesorl]

Hi everyone-

Lib's right- it looks busy here!  And since we're all singing new mum's praises, let's try and help each other out where we can... or we're likely to drive new mum away!

Jmoran- sounds like some progress, but I don't know how to advise on what to do next.  I know some go for a few days with 1 nap, and then need one day of 2 naps to prevent OT.

Amy123- I know how the paci goes.  I love and hate it.  We try to use it only for sleeping and car rides (if necessary).

Last night M went to sleep herself at 6pm, but was screaming by 6:45pm (strange, as she was only up 3 hours from last nap to bedtime, but I guess still OT), 1 PD and paci replacement, and she slept until....
5:05am.  Uggghhh- thought that we'd have an early wake up.  PD once, and some hand on her back, and b2s from 5:50am-6:36am.  Today is back to napping herself in her crib-

Good luck all-
Leslie

[jmoran544]

Thank you for keeping with me everybody. I feel we are so close to victory...
Any opinions on when to give a second nap vs putting kiddos to bed early? If they sleep from 11:30-12:30 for a nap, then the second nap would be around 4:00 I'm thinking. That means if they slept an hour bedtime would be aroound 7/ 7:30? Or would I keep them up from 12:30 to 6pm and hope for a long night?

Sorry for all of the scenarios, but having options in my mind helps drive me less crazy.

[NiknLily]

Lindaloulou - ditto what Lib said  

Jmoran - also ditto what Lib said   Plus, I work on only 5hrs A after nap before bedtime.  It is natural that the first few 1 nap days get good nap lengths then these rapidly get shorter.  Its not always the case but for the majority a 1hr15min (or less) nap on 1 nap days is considered an OT nap, so I would say some OT is creeping in again.  It will continue to do so for some time in a cycle of good sleep, then OT then catching up then OT again   its a huge pain but goes with the territory. On those nap lengths I would start by putting them down at 4.5-4.75hrs A time for nap then give max 5hrs after before bed, remember that if they are lacking in nap sleep to put them down for bed early by the difference, so about 30-40mins earlier than you might think.  Just seen your latest post, If you do feel you want to squeeze in a catnap I would only give 30mins max so as to not interupt bedtime.  I wouldn't keep them up from 12.30 - 6pm I would say that would just lead to early wake up again.

Lib - I would say its the last effects of the cold affecting her sleep, probably OT   I would say that you are back to getting her over the OT then maybe try your schedule again.  If you think 6.15 is too late then it probably is.

[jmoran544]

You are all sleep geniuses! I put my kiddos down for their nap 4:5hrs after waking, due to 1:15 hr naps yesterday, and a nw from 4:30-5:15 this morning (they fell back to sleep until 6:40). Ds slept for 1.5 hrs and dd for 2! YAY!. I think I'm starting to get the hang of this sleep "alchemy". So I will put them to bed at 6 tonight. I'm hoping ds will snooze in the car while we are out, so he doesn't get OT for the night. 

I assume that when the kiddos are sleeping through the night consistently, and naps are good, then I can start shifting their day by ten min a day, but not until then?

[marcimommy]

Hi everybody,

my LO is not even 9 months old but he shows a tendancy to try to switch to 1 nap. He has extended his A times drastically in the past few weeks and now he would go happily for 4-4.5 hours in the AM and 4.5-5 hours in the PM We are currently having a hard time to adjust his routine. He doesn't get tired to go down for his AM nap until about 11:00 a.m. and than he would sleep for about 1.5 hours. Now the problem is that if he goes down for another nap in the PM later than 2:30 than it messes up his bedtime. He started to fight bedtime since we are having this issues. We are doing PD (don't do the PU part as he can stand up now by himself) and it has gotten better.  But if he takes only one nap (which has happened only 3 times so far) he would sleep for 2.5 - 3 hours and go down happily at his regular bedtime. I don't know how to fix this. Any advice is welcome! Tahnks 

[lesorl]

Jmoran- I'm so happy for you.  I'm glad you got some great advice.  Think you should probably hold off on shifting the day until you've had a few good days and nights of regular sleep.  Could you send some of that sleep dust my way please?

Welcome marcimommy.  Could you post your routine for us?  That will help us to help you.

We are still in OT hell over here-

After the EW, I put her down after 3 hours 10 mins, and W2S.  She screeched at the 40 min mark, but slept a total of 1 hour 10 mins.  Woke up crying, but then did not show any tired signs until 3 hours 10 mins later, at which time I rushed to put her down.  She finally fell asleep at 3 hours 40 mins, and slept 30 mins, and another 35 on me.  Is it possible she needs the same A time from wake time to nap 1 and wake nap 1 to nap 2?  I always thought the first A time was the shortest.

Leslie

[sorayas mom]

Things are starting to get interesting here again...I'm surprised it took this long!  You were right, OT was creeping in, I think it was because she didn't sleep much while we were away on holiday last weekend.  So she woke up crying at 5:30 am yesterday, finally got her back to sleep at 6:20 and she slept until 8:30!  So it was an easy one nap day, slept 1.5 hours and had her in bed at 7 and she fell asleep without a peep.  Woke up this morning at 6:15, fell back asleep until 6:35 but then just played happily and quietly in her crib until 7.  So OT was taken care of.  Well, today I am trying to extend her am A time a bit.  Went from 4 h to 4 h 10 m, took 15 to fall asleep but ended up sleeping from 10:50 until 12:15 and played quietly and happily in her crib until 12:30.  Then she refused the pm nap (even the sling didn't work!) so I had her in bed at 5:30 and she fell asleep calmly on her own at 5:45.  So we will see what tomorrow morning brings! 

So should I keep extending morning A time every few days by 10 minutes?  Right now her am nap is before 11 (if she wakes before 7) so that is an early nap to last until bedtime!  I will be lucky to get a 2 hour nap out of her I think...so I'm just not sure where to go from here, but we are running out of daytime as her pm nap was already at 4 so I can't go any later then that!!

[NiknLily]

Jmoran, that is fantastic news.  You really are starting to get there.  Definitely give it a few good days and nights then you can start shifting 

Leslie, I would say it is perfectly possible for her to want the same A time before and after 1st nap, it may not be common but as we love to say on BW 'All LO's are different'    Sorry you are still in OT hell, but I'm confident you know how best to handle it, you'll get it sorted soon 

Sorayas Mom, yes just keep pushing that A time 10Min's every 3days (more or less if you think she needs it)  When you get to this point and you can no longer fit in the catnap you just have to give an early bedtime, work on a 12-12.5hr day as a starting point and bring bedtime early by the amount of day sleep she has missed that day, so if you get 1.5hrs nap and she normally wants 2hrs bring bedtime forward by 30Min's, this should hopefully keep the OT monster at bay and allow her to tack extra sleep she needs onto her night.

[jmoran544]

We had a backfire last night. I put the kids down at 6:00- 5 hrs A time after nap for dd, 5.5 for ds. Ds woke at 1:15 and talked intermittently, then after 45 min he switched to moaning. After 30 min of that I gave him some Tylenol, thinking it was teething- I have seen some white under his gums. He fell back to sleep for about 10 minutes then started wailing. Dh went in and said ds was sitting up. So he held him for a while until he settled. Then he went down in his bassinet in our room and slept until 6:30. So he slept 6:00-1:15, then 3:30-6:30. Is this teething, or OT, as well? Yesterday he had a 1.5hr nap, then 5.5hr A time until bed.

What do you all recommend for him today? He's had three nights of earlier bedtime (down from 7/7:30 to 6/6:30), but all 3 nights he has been awake for 45 min or more. His wake time has improved- from 5:30 to 6:30+, but with the nw's I feel like that doesn't really count.

I was planning to put the kiddos down for naps at different times today, because dd seems to really be responding well to the earlier bedtimes. If she wakes at night it is only briefly- less than 15 minutes. I have heard her cry out once or twice, but she settles almost immediately. So today I plan to put her down for an 11:30 nap (she woke at 6:45). But what about ds? He woke at 6:30. Is 11:00 too late for him? That would be 4.5 hrs after waking. Should I try for a two-nap day for him? If so, how would that look?

[October]

Yikes, I see mixed results out there. Here too...after 2 nights of almost 12 hrs nights and consistent-ish (allowing for my LO taking cvarying times to settle / sleep), we went back to a 5.25am wakeup today (bed was 6.20pm after 2.5 hrs awake and a 45 min.nap). Total naps just uner 2 hrs a day HAD been working.

Did I put him down too early ? He's v.quiet in the crib settling at bedtime but the last 2 nightsa he's taken 20 mins as opposed to 10 on a good day.