Author Topic: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread  (Read 98200 times)

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Offline EloysH

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #300 on: January 15, 2012, 07:25:27 am »
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Eloise - so if you don't mind me picking your brain, where does the B6 fit into gut health in your Pyroluria healing?  .. or does it not really pertain to the gut healing specifically? I have read of high dose Niacin (B6) being used in other natural healing circles for depression and even alcoholism but I don't think I've come across it in my GAPS specific reading.

Also I wanted to ask you, do you give Kai an enzyme supplement on top of the Zinc you're giving him?  Or is the Zinc just supposed to help boost his own enzyme production?

Kai has been presribed digestive enzymes but I am not a fan of them myself. O few firends with relfux kids have reactred badly, and takeing them myself I have not noticed any change- benefit, although I suffer very infrequent dgiestive complain anyway.  Also, Kai has so much going on and so many supps and meds to change/tweak, each new thing can only be added one at a time and this is lower on my list right now.


Yes B6 is nealry as important as zinc and the must be taken together to get real benefit. You need to take the inactive - Pyridoxine HCL and active form - Pyridoxal-5-phosphate (P5P).  THe main thing is that you ened B6 to prodcue serotonin, dopamine and noradrenlanine.  SO if you are low you will be a grouchy and irritable and a crappy light sleeper.  Kai is very irritable child and children with this shortage are the ones who have big tantrums and defiance, anger outbursts and sleep like crap.  It is very very common with autistic children, as alotof them have pyroluria, and this means you have no B6 or zinc.

You also need B6 to digest carbohydrates, lipids and proteins.  it also supports tissues oxygentation, o without out it you will be under oxidative stress and then adrenal fatigue as the adrenals will be constantly turned on. It is also important for your nervous system without it you can be jumpy and frayed.

Zinc is a co-factor and antioxdent for over 200 enzymatic processes, and it decreases intestinal permeabillity, increases immune function and facilitates brain developement, DNA and RNA synthesis and is needed in many digestive processes.

This is why children who have food intolerance, relfux, allergy, irritablility, behavioural disorders and sleep problems all calm down and start sleep properly and heal when put on zinc and b6.

Offline bjutka1

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #301 on: January 15, 2012, 09:53:53 am »
What sort of apple cider vinegar are you using? Is the one you get in a supermarket not good enough? I found it very cheap, a lot cheaper than epsom salt. We did bath Julia in it once but I didn't notice a major change, just wondering if I'm maybe not using the best quality stuff.

Rebecca, Arthur was doing so well, when did things start to go pearshaped for you? Are you finding he is happy getting only breastmilk? With the saurkraut juice, when is the best time to give it and how much would you start with?

I'm not quite sure what we are going to do. Julia started to get worse when we tried the probiotics and since then she is not even tolerating what she was doing really well on before. Not quite sure how to proceed. The only thing I can think of that the chicken we used at the time was free range from Tesco and the one I tried now was organic from Marks and Spencer but I figured that would be better.

I found the source on the link between beef and MPI. It's from a booked called Motherfood by Hilary Jakobson:

"Foods from the same animal source may trigger similar reactions: for instance if there is a sensitivity to milk protein, look for a possible sensitivity to beef as well. If there is a sensitivity to eggs, look for a possible sensitivity to chicken.." P69
Also, a LLL leaflet on allergies said that about 20% of children who react to milk, will react to beef as well.
So not quite sure where this leaves us...

I may try the tesco chicken again and see what happens. I really don't like the idea of just going back to HAF.

About EE, I don't think Julia has this, she doesn't have reflux at all, I think her symptoms are all lower gut.

The custom probiotics look amazing, Rebecca! So do they not have anything added, just the probiotics? No inulin, maltrodextrin, nothing? What's the binding agent then?
Jutka - lucky mother to 2 gorgeous babies
Peter 25 Oct 2009 and Julia 28 Dec 2010
Married to a loving and proud husband on 25 Aug 2007

Offline EloysH

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #302 on: January 15, 2012, 10:06:18 am »
Rebecca and Bjutka:  
For the purpose of getting them onto foods I would keep going with the chosen food for a good few days if you can, for example 5-7 days.  If they are getting worse and worse you know it is the food, and it really isn't being tolerated. Whenever I trial foods for Kai I give it a really good shot so I don't have any question mark in my mind.  If you choose to do broths for now, give it a good go, as the consequences are back to no food, or even more restricted diet. The other reason I give it along time is that there are so many variables that could be causing the symptoms suhc as sickness, colds, teething or something else, I want to make sure that it is the food.

The only other thing I can think of is to go back to what worked before LO's were reactring.  When we get into a pickle with Kai and he is reacting left right and centre, we go back to your baseline of trusted 100% reaction free.  This is our safety position.  Right now, this is what we are doing since we are reducing his reflux meds down. We don't want any triggers coming from diet at all to set it off. To know where baseline is, I would say it is the diet that allows them to be reaction free for 7 - 14 days.   
« Last Edit: January 15, 2012, 10:08:10 am by EloysH »

Offline bjutka1

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #303 on: January 15, 2012, 10:20:29 am »
Thanks, Eloise. Before the probiotics, Julia was getting a lot better on swede, squash, chicken and chicken stock. I thought this was our baseline. However, after I started the probitics she got so much worse, and continued to get worse even days after I stopped the probiotics. Then I went on HAF only for 5 days and she more or less settled. Put the chicken stock and chicken back and we are back to wind, constipation, very offensive smelling poo and worse skin. Is that not a reaction? But if she can't tolerate chicken, how come she was good on it before the introduction of the probiotics?

What do you think?
Jutka - lucky mother to 2 gorgeous babies
Peter 25 Oct 2009 and Julia 28 Dec 2010
Married to a loving and proud husband on 25 Aug 2007

Offline EloysH

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #304 on: January 15, 2012, 10:34:03 am »
I am not sure  :-\ Was she ok on the chicken stock  second time round??    If so, I would go back to chicken stock, make it super gelatinous and give that to her for a week or two and see how she goes, then try the chicken again. Be sure to use organic chicken of course.

This is new territory for me, as Kai was ok with all the first 10-20 foods we introduced.    I just wonder if she is harbouring a parasitic infection or huge levels of Klebsiella or something like that... has she had a  complete digestive stool analysis yet or do they say she is too young?

 I think you should post this question on my facebook group too - there are loads of mothers with children with allergy and food intolerance who have struggled to get them onto few foods - many with good knowledge of GAPS and failsafe.   I sent you a message via facebook, I hope you can find the group.   Collectively, they will be able to answer this question I am sure, someone would have been in this position before and also have knowledge of how probiotics affect the gut and what the possibilities could be for your situation

I do know that some kiddies do not tolerate probiotics at all, those Mummas will be there to give advice.  :)

If anyone else wants to join this group then I am happy to provide details.

Offline deb

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #305 on: January 15, 2012, 12:36:53 pm »
Hey Deb, do you do Kombucha?

I have tried making my own kombucha a number of times and every single time have grown mold that wasn't supposed to be there. that's before I became SuperMom, though, so maybe I should give it another go. LOL

Oooh, looky what I found this morning online?  http://www.foodrenegade.com/how-to-grow-a-kombucha-scoby/

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #306 on: January 15, 2012, 13:10:21 pm »
with this shortage are the ones who have big tantrums and defiance, anger outbursts and sleep like crap

Ok, so this hit home. Not for Ds2, but Ds1. He was doing much better digestive wise when we first started GAPS but we've recently hit some regression w/ him as well. Moreover, his behaviour was getting better and your quote above sounds EXACTLY like what we've been dealing with the last 1.5 weeks or so. I was thinking it was potentially the newest probiotic we added to the mix (Vital Immune) as its much stronger and I thought it was die off. But what you're saying about the B6 makes a lot of sense too. The anger outbursts we've hit are unreal and very unusual for his behaviour. He's even taken to hurting himself when he gets like this. I would almost charicterize it as bipolar like (which scares me b/c my aunt has bipolar). One minute he's an angel, the next second I wonder where my son went, kwim?  Again I thought it was die off, but perhaps there's even more of an imbalance going on then I thought.

The reason this component sticks out to me is there is a strong family history of mental illness + digestive issues (hence one of my reasons for being compelled to GAPS as well)  incl. my father who had alcoholism and depression.  When I read that B6 is being found to play a crutial role in both of those illnesses, I find it impossible to ignore.

So B6... should I check Iherb again?! LOL... I found some liquid B6 the other day but didn't order it b/c I wasn't sure if there was something specific I should be looking for.  I suppose I could start a low dose paired with the zinc to see if it helps any.

Jutka, see Arthurs regression all seemed to happen within the last 2 wks, and I think I went too quickly with implementing bone broth, ezymes, different probiotics ect so I can't totally pinpoint it.  Arthur first got a couple pimples on his chin after he first ate that piece of beef, but I thought that was hormonal bc I had AF at the time. Those pimples never went away and seemed to turn into this rash we're dealing with, but again that was the same time i tried the enzymes, a few days later extra bone broth, a few days later added the new probiotic. Also I don't feel the burps he's been having lately are a good sign and those just happened after the Vital Immune.  Come to think of it, now that I'm typing it all out it may be linked to the new probiotic, the VItal Immune. It is more potent in the particular strains that are said to help allergies. I wonder if there is a strong die off involved? I did go ahead and introduce a high dose of it rather quickly... hummm :-\

I totally kwim about baseline Eloise. That's why with Arthur I feel like I need to go back to EBF'ing and just the Klaire labs infant probiotics until his rash clears up and he's on more of an even keel.

Jutka, I spoke to the owner of Custom Probiotics and he said there's nothing but probiotics. Many people on the gaps yahoo group talk about them and say they are great.  Maybe try calling. His name is Harry. He may change you a small amout for shipping a sample of the infant probiotics since you are outside the US, but it could be worth a shot ??? The infant probiotic is multi strain though. When you call, be sure to tell him your whole situation. He's interested in details so he can recommend the best course of action. Like I said, he works with GAPS patients and is very willing to help.  I was very impressed with his knowledge.

Saw that on your FB Deb! Love it!

Offline bug_blues70

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #307 on: January 15, 2012, 13:42:38 pm »
Big hugs to you mamas! I'm following along with interest and wanted to ask a few questions. Eloys - do you have to get them tested for B6/zinc levels first or is it safe to just start supplementing?

Also, I've been eating hidden dairy and/or butter since about new years and I haven't noticed any real reaction from Milo. In fact, he's getting better and better - last night he only ate once!! He had a few other very quick resettles in the early half of the night, but the 2nd half was a straight 6 hour stretch! Since I stopped eating eggs (once again) i don't even think he's spit up once. Here's my question. Is it a good idea or a bad idea to try giving him a teaspoon of the homemade yogurt I made yesterday? i figure if I give it directly to him, the reaction will be more obvious if there is one. Or should I keep him off of all milk even if he doesn't show reaction to some dairy in MY diet, just because?




Megan

tigerlilly905

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #308 on: January 15, 2012, 13:46:17 pm »
Jutka, I didn't answer you about the ACV. We use Omega Nutritions Organic Unpasteurized ACV. It actually contains pepsin, active bacterias and enzymes. Funny, when I take a small tsp myself I actually get a bit nauseous... hummm... Must be doing something for me too.. http://www.iherb.com/jarrow-formulas-omega-nutrition-apple-cider-vinegar-with-mother-12-fl-oz-355-ml/161?at=0&l=en  We have a bigger bottle but you get the idea.

Another thought - So Arthur wasn't having this reaction to chicken before, right? I mean, I was giving it to him to gum and he was ok. I had also given him chicken stock back in November and he was fine (no rash ect) It's only been since that one time he ate a very small piece of egg a couple weeks ago and broke out in a full body rash. What if the egg triggered a response in his body and now he's not only sensitive to egg, but the chicken now too?! Argh! I feel so dumb for giving him that piece of egg now! :(

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #309 on: January 15, 2012, 13:48:52 pm »
Is it a good idea or a bad idea to try giving him a teaspoon of the homemade yogurt I made yesterday? i figure if I give it directly to him, the reaction will be more obvious if there is one. Or should I keep him off of all milk even if he doesn't show reaction to some dairy in MY diet, just because?

If you're eating dairy and he's doing ok, I think it's worth a shot. NCM suggests yogurt in the baby program, so who knows. Maybe Milo has done some really good healing lately. That's great news sweets! Maybe just try having him lick a tich off your finger for a few days and go from there? I would go suuper slow though.

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #310 on: January 15, 2012, 13:52:03 pm »
yeah i was just thinking more about it (and also just noticed a new tiny patch of eczema on his face :( ) and I think for now I'll just focus on getting more broth and more skj into him for the time being. Like i said, he's doing better and I don't want to regress!!




Megan

Offline bjutka1

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #311 on: January 15, 2012, 13:54:27 pm »
Got you on Facebook, Eloise, thanks. But I can't find the GAPS page. Would you mind inviting me or telling me what the exact name is?

No, she wasn't fine with just chicken stock. As soon as I put it back (other than the HAF), she turned a lot worse,which is unbelievable as she was doing so much better before.

Maybe someone on FB will have had a similar situation, I hope.

So scary about the behavioural problems. Really feel for you, Rebecca. I don't know if this is something that Julia is likely to go on having. She has tantrums already and she is only 1. I don't know if it originates from her gut problems or is it just her character? If she doesn't get her way, she would nearly throw herself to the ground and flail with her arms... What is the zink/B6 supplement you're using? How do you decide the dose? Is this not something you would need a blood test for to decide?
Jutka - lucky mother to 2 gorgeous babies
Peter 25 Oct 2009 and Julia 28 Dec 2010
Married to a loving and proud husband on 25 Aug 2007

Offline bjutka1

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #312 on: January 15, 2012, 13:57:46 pm »
Lots of posts while I was posting. How much skj are you giving, Megan?

I was thinking something similar to you, Rebecca as in what if something in the probiotics annoyed Julia so much that now she doesn't tolerate even what she has been tolerating before?
Jutka - lucky mother to 2 gorgeous babies
Peter 25 Oct 2009 and Julia 28 Dec 2010
Married to a loving and proud husband on 25 Aug 2007

tigerlilly905

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #313 on: January 15, 2012, 14:19:40 pm »
Last thought... (for now) I just compared labels on the infant probiotic and the Vital Immune. The biggest difference is Acidophilus. The Vital Immune contains 1 bil CFUs and the Infant Probiotic does not contain any. I wonder if that's where I'm hitting a reaction is with the Acidophilus ???  Going to post on the GAPS FB page about it to see if anyone has insight. Have you ladies heard anything about Acidophilus? I swear I read somewhere a while back that some gaps patients can't tolerate it, but I can't find where I read that.

Jutka, type in "Gut and Psychology Syndrom" fully in the search bar. The group should come up. You'll probably see posts from me. My alias on FB is "Karma Spirit".

tigerlilly905

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Re: Gut and Psychology Syndrome (GAPS) Support thread
« Reply #314 on: January 15, 2012, 14:26:28 pm »