12 month old with 30-45 min naps

[NiknLily]

Hi Leslie

I think the idea of getting her physically checked over to ensure there is no reason why she isn't sleeping is a very good idea.  Once you have done that at least you will know whether your flogging a dead horse even trying or if its just that she needs something we aren't doing to get her to nap.

Really tho' it wasn't that unexpected that the 12min nap would stick it's oar in somewhere, she had a good night because she was exhausted.  Lily would sometimes do that when totally knackered but the next day it would be worse than before because even after a good night sleep she was still really knackered.  As you said you did expect the 30min nap in pm, so she was at least predictable   

I think I would stick with this current routine for another week, hopefully one that doesn't have any 12min naps.  It was working before that nap, so I believe it will start to settle again.  Then I actually really agree with Skatty that maybe you need to get back onto 1 nap.  Where she was before you went onto 1 nap was; napping horribly, mainly 2 x 30min naps and EW.  After a couple of weeks on 1 nap (and yes you did I think have some 30/40min 1 nap days) her nights improved, her wake up was getting later and her naps had started to extend.  If she hadn't of got ill, you would probably be well set on 1 nap by now.

The way I see it is that she is still OT even on 2 naps, you need to get her checked out by a doctor which will take a while to do, so in the meantime all you can do is your best.  To me all you can do is try to get her morning later by sticking with the 2 naps for another week then if wake up has improved go for it with 1 nap again.  It was working before and she is a good month older now so it really should work this time too.  Just remember it was a hard slog when you put her on 1 nap but no harder than coping with 2 crap naps a day and all the stress your going through with it now and was before too.

[lesorl]

25 mins this morning... I felt I had to extend, she's just too OT.  Only extended another 20 mins anyway, so up by 10am.

It took almost a month to sleep train her, so maybe it'll take that long to get her on a consistent schedule.

Did I mention how tired I am?

[MommaHolmes]

Mate, we can all imagine (and some of us remember) just how tired you are I just wish we had a magic wand we could wave and it all be OK.

I have to admit that I am baffled by your LOs inability to sleep properly - two naps, one nap, I'm not sure that any routine changes are going to make the difference that you need.
I cannot believe that in NYC there is not one sleep clinic / paediatrician or other expert who can help you deal with M's problems whilst respecting your wish not to leave your child to cry alone. Maybe you could post a message asking for recommendations from people?

I remember seeing a thread a few weeks back where someone was talking about their sleep clinic experiences - found it here here.
You could also consider seeing an alternative therapist like a medical herbalist or something -  alternative therapists tend to have a whole person approach that means that they spot things that doctors don't. You might find that diet changes are really helpful.

 

[skatty]

I just briefly read some of that thread and just thought, do you think she could have a food intolerance? When did you wean her as your previous message said that you have had short naps since 4 months. Leorah was MSPI and it took me a few months to work it out but until then she just didn't sleep from being about one week old (naps or night, she was exhausted and me too!) As soon as I eliminated dairy and soy from my diet she started to sleep and any time I slipped up the problems would reappear.

The alternative thearapist is also a great idea, I have used a few homeopathic remedies for Leorah when she had stomach ache and also use essential oils like lavender to help her relax or eucalyptus when she has a cold.

[lesorl]

I suppose anything's possible- she's on a proton pump inhibitor for reflux, which we're currently weaning her from (only the last 4 days, so no real effect on sleep).  And over the last 2 weeks we've transitioned to milk- prior to that she was on a lactose free formula (it was easier to digest, not b/c she was intolerant- and she does fine with yogurt and cheese).

I'm really giving serious thought to Benadryl for a few nights to see if that helps us climb out of this deep hole.

We had 30 mins this afternoon, and I had a heck of a time trying to get her b2s.  She slept 5 mins and then was crying for 2, but then managed another 30 mins.

I aimed for 5:10pm bedtime, asleep by 5:30pm.  But I am expecting another long NW tonight.

[skatty]

I have read before that some doctors will prescribe an antihistamine as a sedative to get a baby to sleep so they and the parents can be well rested before sleep training but in the summer Leorah had hayfever and I gave her benadryl and I dont think it helped her sleep more, just eased her symptoms so her nose wouldnt be itchy and running. I know in the US a lot of people use it to help their kids sleep on plane journeys though so maybe it will help and get you refreshed for tackling the issue.

As for intolerances although dairy is common it could be anything. At 12 months Leorah started being able to tolerate cheese and yoghurt but only these last 2 weeks has she been able to drink milk. I would be willing to try anything now, perhaps you should look into elimination diets for chidren?

[MommaHolmes]

over the last 2 weeks we've transitioned to milk- prior to that she was on a lactose free formula (it was easier to digest, not b/c she was intolerant- and she does fine with yogurt and cheese).

Hmmmm.... I think that may be significant. Although you say she's not lactose intolerant, her system may still find it quite difficult to process that much more dairy than she is used to.
Have you tried her with something like rice milk instead? Ollie has rice milk as he was dairy free for ages to sort out his eczema (which worked like a charm) - he has some dairy stuff now but I am still planning to keep it to a minimum.

[lesorl]

I'm losing it here... asleep by 5:30pm, up for about 5 mins at 6:10pm, and then awake at 3:35am.  She tossed and turned for awhile, then started standing up and clapping.  By 5:15am, I was knackered.  I rocked her, and she slept maybe 20 mins, and as soon as I put her in her crib, she was awake.  No going b2s.

Should I still go for the 9am nap?  I'm planning on extending it, as desperate times call for desperate measures.

[MommaHolmes]

Do what you think is best - I think with effectively a 3:30am wake up I'd be inclined to get her to bed as soon as you think she will fall asleep.

This isn't about routine Leslie. You need to prioritise getting to see a paediatrician because something else is disturbing her sleep.

As reflux has clearly been a major problem for her, I would get her back on the meds and off cows milk straight away until her sleep settles down. You need to be able to rule it out as a factor. I'd also take her off all dairy & eggs as they are a major culprit in child health problems (especially reflux!).

I am here for support but TBH, in terms of advice about naptimes, bedtimes etc, your guess is as good as mine at the moment 

[NiknLily]

Like wise I think Leslie, get her to a doctor asap and don't let them tell you its nothing.  At this point if it where me I would happily give anything prescribed to help her sleep, just until things can be looked into in more depth and to get her not being OT.  Even if they insist you see a sleep specialist, don't be worrying about them using CIO because, bless her she doesn't really have a problem going to sleep, its just staying asleep that the problem.  And if she wakes up happy and wont go back to sleep then CIO wouldn't work because she isn't crying.  They would need to focus more on her sleep patterns to see if something is amiss in how she sleeps, I'm no sleep doc but maybe she is unable to do some of the types of sleep, like rem or non rem or whatever

Although it seems unlikely to be dairy thats causing the problem as its only been a few weeks and she has been like this since 4m, I still think I would cut it all out just to be sure and get her back on reflux meds.  As whatever is happening, you need to be sure of what it isn't first, iykwim.

I'm here for you Leslie however long this takes but lets stop fannying around and get this little girl sorted as you really have tried everything we can think of and none of it is helping and really really something should of worked by now.

With regards when to nap, I would just keep napping her as often as she will through the course of the day's at this point.

 

[skatty]

Leslie, I have really been thinking about this and it is really reminding me of Leorah with her food intolerances, she would fall asleep but just couldn't stay asleep, I think it must be something medical. As the others said forget the routine and get her sleeping when and however you can and get her to a doctor, when L was small I was in the hospital 3x and they kept saying nothing was wrong and in the end it took me having a complete meltdown and refusal to leave until I saw a specialist to get anything done, it turned out that the specialist diagnosed what was wrong with her 30 seconds into an examination  Just be strong and remember you are M's voice so don't let them fob you off with waiting lists etc, poor little lady needs her health and her sleep, once i fixed my det for L she slept for hours on end for days catching up, it was like I had a new baby.

Good luck, we are all here for you anxiously awaiting any news (((hugs)))

[lesorl]

Ok well- not the greatest day 

She slept 50 mins and 45 mins, both naps ON me (I wanted to ensure the max. amt of sleep).

I spoke with PED, who said Ferberize her.  I need to stop rocking her to sleep, and don't go to her when she cries in the middle of the night.  Sounds cruel to me.

But, tonight I rocked her to sleep at 4:53pm, had her in her crib at 5pm, and she was up at 5:12pm.  Tried again at 5:25pm, as soon as I laid her down she was up.  So IS rocking my problem?

Have a call in to the GE, but she's not in til Wednesday.

(Edited to add) She's been having 1/2 dose of her reflux meds, and then started on Thursday.  Both Thu and Fri we didn't have the long NWs- that was Tue, Wed, Sat, and Sun.  In any case, I gave the other 1/2 does tonight, and went back to the Lactose free milk to see if that makes any difference.

[lesorl]

Worse night-

Up at 11:15pm, hubby rocked her and she finally fell asleep at 1am. 
Up at 4:18am, I adapted new mum's technique of lying on her floor with a pillow and blanket.  She cries for a bit, but then just stands up.  I lied her down a few times, and finally gave up and rocked her at 5:45am, so she could get a little rest, about 33 mins.

I think some serious sleep training may be in order.

Don't know what to do... but none of us can continue like this.

[MommaHolmes]

I think you and your DH need to agree on how to handle her NWs and (though I wouldn't suggest you Ferberise/do CC) I agree with your ped that you need to stop rocking her to sleep. She seems to have totally forgotten how to settle herself back to sleep on her own and she knows that if she persists for long enough then one of you will give in and rock her. You will probably get some good help on the Props board for using the gradual removal / withdrawal technique, which is least distressing for you and her. Maybe post on there too?

Also you need to get a bit tougher with your ped and insist that you want her checked out for any other possible factors that could be affecting her sleep (ear infections etc).

[NiknLily]

I agree (again  ) go back to your doctor and insist on having her checked out.  I don't know but I thought you had to pay for medical help in the states, not like the NHS we get.  If so I would be even more adamant that they do as I ask, as your paying the bill! 

I did think she could get to sleep on her own, I knew you rocked to extend her sleep but thought she was going to sleep initially independantly (albeit with you in the room)  So if you are rocking her to sleep for every sleep then yes, this will most definitly be a lot of the reason she is not sleeping well or long enough.  You do need to get tough and at her age it isn't going to be pretty but it can be done.  I would post elsewhere to get a better response but just to get you going, this in a nutshell is what I would do.  The fortunate thing is she is sleeping so badly and is already so OT then it really wont matter how long it takes her to get to sleep because it can't get any worse than it is.

Basic plan - Sorry if I'm teaching granny to suck eggs here but here it is anyway. 

Start with your wind down, if you don't have a good one then think one up and stick with it.  It doesn't have to be complicated.  Lily's is; in my room, read 2 books, into sleep sac, she used to then be bf but when I stopped that we started having a little chat about what we had done so far that day.  Then into her room, turn on night light, say good night to almost everything in room  then I sing Winnie pooh theme song we have a cuddle then I lay her down say night night and leave.  So after your wind down lay her down and step back.  If she jumps up happy turn your back and head for door.  She will then most likely cry for you to come back, lay her down and repeat.  If when you lay her down she is still crying and jumps straight up lay her straight back down and rub her back or stroke her head, whatever calms her.  As she starts to calm down reduce the pressure of rub or stroke and see if you can stop before she falls completly to sleep, if not for now rub her to sleep.  Wait a good 10mins before leaving the room.  If she then wakes after 30mins happy then leave her to it until she cry's for you, then go in and lay her down and repeat the whole process until either she is asleep or you have been at it for at least 30mins.  When you decide to get her up if she wont go back to sleep try to do it when she is not crying so that she doesn't think crying gets me up.

For NW's I would do exactly the same, exept that when It was in early hours I would stay in her room with her lay down on floor and pretend you are asleep if she is just up and happy but not sleeping, lay her down if she cry's and rub etc to help her settle, do this with ear plugs in it really helps.  Whats hugely important at her age is to not give in, you have to be totally 100% consistant, every time you give in just for some peace and quiet and to all get some sleep you will go 10 steps back not just 1!

Once she can settle to sleep in her cot and not by being rocked then you can start with the GW, don't leave this too long as your presence in her room will soon become more distracting to her than helpful.  So start by only rubbing or stroking for a few minutes after initial lay down, then stand up beside cot and make no eye contact and do not talk to her.  The hardest part of GW is breaking the 'contact to sleep' part once this is done it should be a lot easier to get out of room.  Then with every sleep time step just a little further from cot until you eventually lay her down and walk to door but still don't leave until she is asleep.  The next hardest part is getting out of room.  Once she is happy that she falls asleep with you at door you then take the plunge and step out of the door after laying her down.  You will most likely have to go back in and may need to repeat several steps but this time keep heading out of door after laying her down.  It then becomes WI/PD/WO.  So what I found was that I would wi do pd and walk straight back out crying or not, then straight back in and repeat until she gave in and fell asleep.  Obviously if she gets too upset at this point to be able to settle herself then you will need to calm her before leaving but be wary of this because they quickly figure out how to keep you right beside the cot by keeping on crying.

Once you are at the wi/pd/wo stage do this for all wakings, from naps and nws and ew's.  Even if Lily wasn't crying but woke up at wrong time like halfway through a nap or ew (always crys for NW) I would still wi/pd/wo as a reminder that its not time to get up its still sleep time.

If you are super consistant with is it shouldn't take too long before you start to see results but like I said if you give in just 1 time you will seriously pay for it and have to go back and repeat earlier steps until you catch back up.

got to go Lily crying, let me know if you need any more advise on GW